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Carolina Wins Game 4 at Last Second & Brodeur Bump, 4-3

The New Jersey Devils played their worst hockey in the first two periods, while the Carolina Hurricanes just outplayed them.  The Hurricanes out-hit them, out-shot them 37-17, out-battled the Devils for the puck, and out-controlled the puck. The addition of Dennis Seidenberg wasn't the sole reason for it, but he had a great game on his own.  The whole team did, and they managed to keep the Devils quiet by just pinning them back over and over again.  For the most part, Carolina led in regulation for the first time all series and managed to build up a 3-0 lead.  The Devils' defense was in shambles and became shorthanded when Bryce Salvador left the game with a knee injury.

Then in the dying seconds, the Devils got a little life when Mike Mottau found Brian Gionta all alone in the neutral zone.  The long pass connects and Gionta is clean through to Cam Ward.  Ward is just beaten silly by Gionta and so the second period ends 3-1.   Surely, Carolina could put this game away? They were playing Hurricanes hockey - free-flowing, finesse hockey complemented by check after check.

Then the Hurricanes, for a lack of a better word, choked.  The Devils started to battle back and started getting more possession.  Before we know it, the Devils are able to get what Carolina did for their first and third goals - rebounds.  both times, Ward was stretched out as Brendan Shanahan and later David Clarkson had the position and the time to just bury the rebound.  It's 3-3 and it's a heads-up game.  Carolina had to take a timeout after the Clarkson effort; they were blowing it!  they regrouped.

Then the game ended on a travesty of a non-call.  The Devils defense, who had a bad night all around, were holding Carolina back but the Canes take one last shot from the point.  With 2 seconds left, Martin Brodeur - who faced a ton of rubber - gets hit by Jussi Jokinen.  Rule 69.1 says that's goaltender interference, but the refs swallowed their whistles.  The bump caused Brodeur to get to the left side late and the shot squeaks through (boxscore says Jokinen tipped Seidenberg's shot) with 0.2 seconds left to play.  The Canes win Game 4, tying up the series with the 4-3 win.

Star-divide

This is infuriating.  OK, the Devils maybe shouldn't have won this game.  OK, the the Devils should have thrown their bodies across the ice in front of that shot.  OK, the Devils should have had a man on Jokinen.  That doesn't excuse ignoring a clear violation of Rule 69.1. The ref may claim it was a reasonable effort to avoid him, but the video shows otherwise!  Brodeur was very upset after the game - something not normal for him - and he has every right to be!   He was bumped! If he wasn't bumped, he's in position sooner and stops that shot.   Moreover, it didn't even need to be a penalty - the goal could have simply been waved off.  

This double standard of not calling anything short of blood in the final moments of a playoff game is a horrific precedent to set. Especially when it concerns the goaltender! Does this now mean it's free reign on all goaltenders with 2 minutes left to play?  Does it only apply to Brodeur?  Does it get allowed after further runs at the crease (e.g. Chad LaRose had an easier time on that rebound with Havelid battling a Cane into Brodeur for the third Carolina goal!). Does Brodeur get that call if he dives?  Will we see Cam Ward dive all throughout Game 5 on Thursday? (Actually, I think I know the answer to that one!)

In any case, the Devils played a brilliant third period and it should have been deserving of overtime.  Maybe they should have lost this game given how awful they were in the first two periods.   They got out shot 46-29, out hit 40-25, and  But as luck and gutless play by Carolina's Jussi Jokinen (he knew damn well what he was doing) and poor decision making by the refs say otherwise. 

Sutter came to a press conference and he's quite calm about this.  He's emphasizing the positives: the Devils did come back from 3 goals on the road, played a terrific third period, and only to lose it in the last 0.2 seconds. It's a tied series now and, hey, it is what it is.  Brodeur is calm talking about the incident now, relaying that the refs claim Brodeur had time to reset himself.  Really. 1.8 seconds is enough time for this? And it excuses contact altogether? 

As a fan sitting here, I am honestly still disgusted about what I just saw and I'm sure you are as well.  Despite the quotes and feeling, I would think the Devils players have to feel some anger about what happened - to come so close, and yet to be so far.  Of course, that's just me. Looking at the positives is probably the best approach for the Devils. Taking positives, getting angry, and everything in between, I believe it all leads to the same likelihood:  Game 5 is going to feature a massive response from New Jersey.   Now, the Devils have a serious motive for revenge and to take the series back again.

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I expect

nothing short of a blowout win for the devils in games 5 and 6. I know I am so mad that I could go out there and score a few….
With that being said…is there any chance of the refs being suspended?

by been there, hoisted that!! on Apr 21, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions  

We’ll see more of a chance that Bettman pays them instead for his “job well done.”

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!

by R_Adragna on Apr 21, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea the refs were pretty bad last night. Staal was tripped at least three times no call.
But if Brodeur keeps playing out of the crease stuff like that happens. Definitley a good goal, and a good no call. Even NHL on the fly said there should of been no call.

by canescup on Apr 22, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those were not trips. Staal falls over whenever an opposing player so much as brushes up against him, looking to get a call. The refs probably know this, which is why they ignored it.

by kellyn on Apr 22, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sort of sounds like your talking about Brodeur.

by canescup on Apr 22, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have a right to your opinion, just as I have a right to disagree with it. I love that the hockey blogs on SB Nation welcome comments from fans that do not necessarily support the hockey club they cover because it encourages discussion among fans who love the game. However, I would appreciate it if you would be respectful of the fact that you are no longer playing in your sand box. This is a Devils blog, and snarky comments about the team’s Future-Hall-of-Fame goaltender will not go over well among many of the Devils fans who read this blog, just as I am sure the denizens of Canes Country would be irritated if I left a comment over there to the effect that Eric Staal is a whiny diver who is about one second away from picking the pieces of Colin White’s composite stick out of his teeth of he doesn’t stop acting tougher than he really is. By all means feel free to express your opinion on Martin Brodeur, however on flattering it may be – but I would appreciate if you would do it over on Canes Country because when you post it here it feels like you are purposely looking for an argument.

by kellyn on Apr 22, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW

John Madden’s miss of a half open net with about five minutes left really hurts.

As for the non-call, it was utter bulls$@t. It was one of the lamest non-calls I’ve ever seen and I think it’s just a matter of the refs not expecting a goal at that time, so they just let it go. It’s not excusable on their behalf, but I’m really fired up for Thursday now. Wow. Just wow.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 21, 2009 11:31 PM EDT reply actions  

it wasn’t madden who missed. he put it on net and ward made an incredible toe save. Rupp missed, which doesnt surprise me

by skly27 on Apr 22, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Different play, Madden got a bouncer and it went up and over short side.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 22, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Madden missed the open net

He had half the net to shoot at with about five minutes left.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 22, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

what about Marty being out of his zone or blue area

thus Jokinen had every right to fight for that spot outside of the goalie’s zone. I know I was furious about that SHI* call, but you know what can we do then just go home and try to beat them at our place. The key thing will be to capitalize on the come back from 0-3 in this game and pressuring Canes in Game 5 early in the game as we did in Game 1.

by NYYEastcosterNJD on Apr 21, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions  

the thing is yes, brodeur was out of his zone. but he was hit by jokinen WITHOUT jokinen trying to manuver around him. Thus it’s a penalty(rule 69.1)

by skly27 on Apr 22, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

My question is

What is Jokinen supposed to do? How far out is the goalie allowed to go? Brodeur is 6 feet outside of the crease and moving forward. How much protection does he goalie need? Should he be allowed to skate out to the faceoff circle without having a player attempting to take up a position in front of him?

I have Sean Avery on my team, so I’m pretty sure I know what it looks like when a player is trying “accidentally” interfere with a goalie, and it doesn’t seem like Jokinen was doing that. Add in the fact that Brodeur is the one moving forward, with Jokinen’s facing the other direction in a place where he would not expect the goaltender to be – and its tough to conclude that Brodeur got a bad call.

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Apr 22, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

How does clinching a playoff spot on the worst call of the season feel?

Let’s not whistle until the goalie and puck are both in the net. Rangers Win!

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 22, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rule 69.1

From the NHL Rulebook, as available at NHL.com:

This rule is based on the premise that an attacking player’s position, whether inside or outside the crease, should not, by itself, determine whether a goal should be allowed or disallowed. In other words,goals scored while attacking players are standing in the crease may, in appropriate circumstances be allowed. Goals should be disallowed only if: (1) an attacking player, either by his positioning or by contact, impairs the goalkeeper’s ability to move freely within his crease or defend his goal; or (2) an attacking player initiates intentional or deliberatecontact with a goalkeeper, inside or outside of his goal crease. Incidental contact with a goalkeeper will be permitted, and resulting goals allowed, when such contact is initiated outside of the goal crease, provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact. The rule will be enforced exclusively in accordance with the on-ice judgement of the Referee(s), and not by means of video replay or review.

The bolded sentences are the pertinent ones in this situation. It doesn’t matter if Brodeur is 6-9 inches out or 4 feet out. Jokinen made no move to avoid the contact and if anything, from the multiple replays I saw on TV in wonderful HD, it appeared that Jokinen not-so-accidentally bumped him. There was a reason why he stayed up so strong and in front, while Brodeur stumbled for a moment.

The very last part of what I quoted gives the refs an out, admittedly, but you’d have a very hard time arguing Jokinen made a reasonable effort.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!

by John Fischer on Apr 22, 2009 12:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Rule 69.4 addresses contact outside of the crease

The same standard of “reasonable effort to avoid contact” applies there too. Again, I don’t see how you can argue Jokinen made any effort to avoid the contact.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!

by John Fischer on Apr 22, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

How “reasonable” does he need to be? Does he have to turn and face Brodeur, and as Brodeur moves forward, he moves back?
Brodeur is 6 feet outside of the crease and moving forward. How is Jokinen supposed to expect Brodeur to be where he was?

And the rule you bold doesn’t apply here- Jokinen is not initiating contact. He’s standing in a place where he has every right to be, well outside of the crease. Brodeur is the one who came out where he wasn’t expected to be, and initiated caused the contact.

What if Jokinen was standing on the edge of the faceoff circle and Broduer comes out that far? Should Jokinen be expected to make a “reasonable effort” to avoid him?

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Apr 22, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's like you didn't bother reading the post, or maybe you didn't actually watch that part.

Both players were moving. Your bs about him standing in a place, which you base your whole “analysis” on, is completely false to anyone that has eyes and a clip of the play.

I find it funny that Jokinin doesn’t move at all on the bump, almost like he knew exactly where Brodeur was and was expecting the contact. And if he knew where Brodeur was, then he is expected to “reasonably” put effort to avoid contact.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 22, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t answer the quesiton. How much “protection” does the goalie deserve when he comes out of the crease? How many seconds must elapse between the bump and the goal?

Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.

http://glensathersucks.com/
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo

by poploser on Apr 23, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can give you my perspective from that example.

He never had a a chance to get to the side of J and stop, he was still moving over to catch up to the screened area. If he had time to stop and even try to look before the puck was past him, I would have had no problem with that goal.

Instead he was bumped, tried to get a bead on the puck as he was moving over, and never had time to catch up to the play. Thus he was taken out of the play (paraphrase), and the goal should have been disallowed.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 23, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rule 69.1 might be the most ambiguously written NHL rule. It seems to contradict itself several times. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26480

I think the main reason no penalty was called was the fact that he was outside the crease. Also, it clearly was not deliberate contact.

I think this is the part of the rule that was applied in this situation:

“Incidental contact with a goalkeeper will be permitted, and resulting goals allowed, when such contact is initiated outside of the goal crease, provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact. The rule will be enforced exclusively in accordance with the on-ice judgement of the Referee(s), and not by means of video replay or review.

…The overriding rationale of this ruleis that a goalkeeper should have the ability to move freely within his goal crease without being hindered by the actions of an attacking player. If an attacking player enters the goal crease and, by his actions, impairs the goalkeeper’s ability to defend his goal, and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed."

by Stanley Cup of Chowder on Apr 22, 2009 12:06 AM EDT reply actions  

BTW

If you want to avoid getting really pissed, don’t go read Canes Country. He’s actually calling for Brodeur to be suspended for slamming his stick into the boards as well Zubrus for a “cheap shot elbow”. Huh.

On top of that, he claims there should’ve been a penalty for Eric Staal taking a dive so the goal at the end “evened things out.”

Ugh.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 22, 2009 3:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Brodeur's temper tantrum

He was clearly outside the crease and the contact was obviously incidental. Brodeur actually skated out to hit Jussi. Good non-call by the refs.

Zubrus should definitely be suspended, that was exactly the sort of the thing the NHL is supposed to be cracking down on. As a Jersey fan I am ashamed

by angrylinuxgeek on Apr 22, 2009 9:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Bite my ass.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 22, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

shutup algie

I don’t have a problem with the bump on Brodeur, but you sure do have a boner for Zubrus.

by ChrisChester on Apr 22, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last night’s game sums up my three biggest problems with the Devils this season:

1) They have the ability to play with, and beat, any team in the league, but they often come out and play like they’ll be handed the victory if they just skate around for a while. It’s like watching a gifted but lazy child throw away all of their potential to live in their parent’s basement and smoke pot into their 40’s rather than make something of themselves.

2) That darn defensive scheme late in a game, especially in the playoffs. They played for overtime rather than to win the game. They took it to Carolina and gave up nothing all period, but when it got late they backed off. I understand that you don’t want to lose a game late, but what did the Canes have up until the Devils backed off, 4 shots on goal all period? They can’t score while they’re chasing the puck in their own defensive end. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. In such a tight series, they need to play to win, not to not lose.

3) Brodeur. I blame him for the loss last night. Not because of the poor rebound control he had all night that directly led to 2 of the Cane’s goals, but because he went out of his crease at the end of the game looking for that bump. He’s got no right to be angry about not getting a call. Jokinen didn’t get out of the way, to be sure, but Marty glided right into him. Having seen him do it before too many times to count, I know full well it was intentional on Marty’s part, and I hate that part of his game. He needs to shut up, buckle down, and play like he’s capable rather than hope the ref’s will help him out.

All that being said, I have confidence the Devils can pull it out. I hope they’re angry at themselves for playing like crap for 30+ minutes, and have confidence knowing that they can break Carolina when they try. If they come out on Thursday playing like they did in the 3rd period last night, they can rout Carolina, which is exactly what they need heading into game 6 back in Raleigh.

by elesias on Apr 22, 2009 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Point number three, right on. Thanks for speaking the truth. Good series though.

by canescup on Apr 22, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think last night

That it was extremely predictable that the Canes were going to dominate the beginning of the game. They were essentially playing for their playoff lives because if the Devils won that game, the series would’ve been over. You could see the Canes go into that shell once they got the 3-0 lead and the Devils were able to turn it on then.

On the point of Brodeur, I believe he’s been coming out too much simply because of the Canes men at the point and the bombs Babchuk and Corvo can shoot. He’s overcompensating, clearly. And it’s actually put in position for some bad bounces off the backboards and whatnot and east-west passes.

That being said, I think nine times out of 10, that would’ve been a penalty. Maybe Marty should’ve flopped like other goalies, ahem, and then that would’ve been considered. Still, the main thing is to kick some Carolina ass on Wednesday. The good news is that the Devils tend to play their best when they have their backs against the wall.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 22, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree

I can tell your a long time fan because your comments as much as I would like to disagree with them (and I’m sure you too) are right on target- I can take them losing as I understand this level of competition is unbelievable and to win any game at this level is a feat to be proud of, but at the same token it is frustating to see them struggle so many times when you know they are clearly the better team. I dont think I would be too biased if I believed that they could have already swept this series even as well as Carolina has been.

by eppy on Apr 22, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, some people agree with the call on the GWG, and some don't...

and some quote the rules and some give eyewitness testimony of what they saw in multiple replays; but what no one seems to mention is that the referee made a judgement call, just as he did countless times throughout the game.

Whether a person agrees or disagrees with the call, the referee is just as much a professional in his job as Marty Brodeur is in his. Of course, the referee doesn’t get to air his opinion on national TV, and only a few comments have been made questioning Marty Brodeur’s decisions.

Those of us who make calls differently from the referees are of course making judgement calls of our own, but few seem to preface any remarks with, “In my opinion…” or “In my judgement…”.

The series is tied 2-2 and the Devils need to win two more games to advance. Two of three remaining are at home. Let’s go Devils!

by Bob Roberts on Apr 22, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions  

At this point arguing over whether or not Jussi Jokinen blatantly interfered with Brodeur is pointless. There was no penalty called and the Hurricanes were able to win the game. It is what it is. I just hope Brodeur and the Devils take their anger and channel it into the winning effort needed to end Carolina’s season. They’re a better team than the Hurricanes. They need to prove it.

by kellyn on Apr 22, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Quit whining

Brodeur was out of the crease, end of story. Jokinen was looking for the shot from the point and he had every right to be in that space as Brodeur. They bumped, the puck went in. So what? The Devils are a the better team and will win it in six. So quit acting like a whiny little * about it.

by XtremeMachine on Apr 22, 2009 1:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Want some cheese to go with that whine?
Then the game ended on a travesty of a non-call..The ref may claim it was a reasonable effort to avoid him, but the video shows otherwise! Brodeur was very upset after the game – something not normal for him – and he has every right to be! blockquote</>

You have to be kidding me.

A travesty of a non call? Is that a joke? Marty was outside his crease and Jokinen unintentionally bumped into him. The video shows otherwise, please, stop making a fool of yourself. It didn’t even have an effect on the goal, the shot came from the other side and Marty was already set and ready to make the save. Marty didn’t even complain until after the video review ruled it a goal. It was as if his tantrum was a sideshow designed to make an excuse for allowing the game winning goal.

I didn’t realize that it was ok for a player to complain to the media about officiating.. REGARDLESS of the circumstances. Which in this case, his complaining wasn’t even warranted.

by John Merrigan on Apr 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Demonstratably false. Try again.
Marty didn’t even complain until after the video review ruled it a goal.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 22, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone here actually watch hockey games!

I’ve been watching hockey games for years and I’m amazed at this circus!. It’s hockey!! It’s a contact sport. Goalies and Forwards bump all the time. It’s part of the game.
Watch the video! Stop crying. Marty was square to the shot and standing in his normal defensive posture. It was a lucky shot that took a lucky bounce. The rest was just hockey.

by Franklnc on Apr 22, 2009 5:47 PM EDT reply actions  

devils revenge

i sat at home and watched the devils pull off a great comeback……..everything seemed like it was going to ot until mr jussi jokinen “accidentally” interefers with marty……..it was such b.s from the refs im suprised brodeur only broke his stick and not their heads…… bettman should have those refs suspended for the rest of the palyoffs as they clearly screwed the devils over….but to stay positive i found it very comforting that new jersey could come back from a 3-0 defecit ON THE ROAD NONETHELESS!!! i predicted the series to go 6 before it started and i strongly believe that will happen as i believe new jersey will dominate carolina tommorow like they did game 1 and then embarass carolina at home on national t.v. to end the series……then those refs can kiss marty’s ass! LETS GO DEVILS!!!!! JUSSI SUCKS!! MARTY"S BETTER!!!!!!!!

by nj devils rock life 4ever on Apr 22, 2009 7:06 PM EDT reply actions  

The real culprit in all of this....

is the ambiguity of the rule, but at the same time, it would be difficult to make it more definitive with the way skaters and goalies are allowed to make contact with each other both inside and outside of the crease. One could really argue the Jokinen goal either way.

by NoVa Caniac on Apr 22, 2009 7:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree. There are many facets to the NHL that both players and fans find frustrating and one of them is the ambiguity of the rulebook. Goaltender interference is just one of many infractions that seems to rely solely on the discretion of the referee working the game to decide when contact between a goalie and an opposing player is merely incidental or warrants the assessment of a minor penalty for interference. The problem with this that what one referee considers interference another might consider incidental contact and thus there is little uniformity from game to game. Regardless of one’s opinion on the matter, it is what it is and anxiously look forward to the remainder of the series.

by kellyn on Apr 22, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am a hurricanes fan , so I am seeing this with a bias, but here are my thoughts on last night.

1. It was a goal.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26557
This is a direct link from the nhl.com rulebook section 69 (teehee) which lists some possible instances of goals being allowed/disallowed. If you would look at section 2, parts b and d. I truly believe Jokinen has a right to that ice. If that contact occurs in the crease, no goal. Since it occurs out of the crease, I think this should be a goal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmMqotFGoI0
It is biased, but has some quality information

2. Suspension?
The only other time I can remember a goalie breaking a stick was on January 13, 2006 – Carolina Hurricanes v. Nashville Predators. In OT, Tomas Kaberle scores a penalty shot against Thomas Vokoun, who hit his stick against the goalpost. It was one motion, and the stick didn’t break. Vokoun was given a game misconduct. What Brodeur did was worse, undoubtedly. Will he be suspended? No, of course not. Should he be? I’m not sure. I do know that his actions and postgame comment should be worth at least a few hundred dollars in suspension money.

3. Predictions.
I understand that the Devils will come out hard in game 5, because they disagreed with the call. However, honestly look at the momentum the Canes will have coming out of that win. I can see either team winning in 6 or 7 games, and I would not place a bet on any games left in the series. In my opinion, winner of game 5 will win the series.

I will not respond to any obvious attempts to start an argument, but feel free to post a response if it is well thought out and reasonable (better than “then those refs can kiss marty’s ass! LETS GO DEVILS!!!!! JUSSI SUCKS!! MARTY”S BETTER!!!!!!!!" – see 3 above)

by mojo944 on Apr 22, 2009 8:01 PM EDT reply actions  

If I wanted your bias I would go to your blog.

I hope we play you as dirty as you’ve played us this series. Enjoy seeing Staal actually getting slammed, instead of just flailing around like Crosby with a seizure.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 22, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

broduer is a whinny p$%#y

But a heck of a good goalie!!! I will say that Devils lost fair an square… A lot of no calls go both ways that one was one of the softer ones so lets play hockey and stop feeling sorry for yourselves….

by devils stink on Apr 23, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Go suck a camel.

It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray

by Faux on Apr 23, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

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