Pre-Free Agency Projection of the 2010-11 New Jersey Devils Defense
After spending most of last week writing up Paul Martin (here, here, here, here, and here) and ultimately concluding that he's the most effective defenseman available on the marker this summer, I think now is a good of a time as any as to discuss what next season's blueline may look like for New Jersey. The big advantage from how I put together the information for the Paul Martin posts was that I also compiled the information for other unrestricted free agent defenseman over the past two seasons. Therefore, I feel more comfortable in making something that resembles an educated guess as to their on-ice impact and who should/should not be signed.
Now, in all of the Paul Martin posts, I didn't come right out and say it, but I'll be up front here: I think Paul Martin needs to be re-signed. There really isn't anyone on the market who can play the amount of time he does and replace his defensive and offensive contributions, even if you're not thrilled with a career high of 37 points. Therefore, even if you don't think he's a #1, just by scarcity alone he'll be able to command a large salary.
Well, I take that back, there is one exception. However, Nicklas Lidstrom is 40 years old, he may be considering retirement, and even if he does play, I don't see why he would leave the Detroit Red Wings, an organization who actually has been more successful than the Devils over the last 15 years. I'd honestly consider him but I highly doubt he's really attainable.
In any case, for this thought exercise, I'm using CapGeek for salary information and will be referencing some of the Paul Martin posts for the charts I made in justifying my decision. Here are some assumptions and limitations for this post: I will be assuming the salary cap remains at $56.8, leaving the Devils with $15.94 million in cap space. I will not be considering what the Devils will do at forward or goaltender; and I will not be considering restricted free agents. The Devils don't even have a first round pick in the 2010 NHL draft for compensation, so that can't make an offer sheet even if Lou would do such a thing.
The current situation is as follows for the Devils: Andy Greene, Colin White, Bryce Salvador, and Anssi Salmela are all signed with the Devils; their UFA defensemen from the New Jersey roster are Paul Martin and Mike Mottau; and they have two RFA defensemen who could make the roster: Mark Fraser and Tyler Eckford. In this post, I will assume the Devils will sign Fraser and Eckford at their minimum required pay raises for RFAs which I believe is 10% over salary. So they'll be making $550k and $753.5k for each, respectively. Should be both stay up in New Jersey, that would leave the Devils with approximately $14.636 remaining, again not considering the cost of signing other RFAs.
From there, I can consider just the UFAs on defense. After the jump, I will offer my take on four possible scenarios: the Devils re-signing both Martin and Mottau, the Devils re-signing Martin but not Mottau, the Devils re-signing Mottau but not Martin, and the Devils not re-signing either Martin or Mottau.
Scenario #1 - Devils Re-sign Martin and Mottau
This would be the "Devil you know" scenario. New Jersey would be able to keep most of the defense together for a fourth straight season and know exactly what each player is capable of on the ice. A fully healthy Paul Martin will be able to provide a positive on-ice impact in terms of shots against as he had in the last two seasons; but a return to his 2008-09 form would be great offensively - especially on the power play. The Devils, last season, hit a nadir in terms of offensive production and while Martin will never be confused with Scott Niedermayer, he'd be able to provide a boost in those departments.
With Mike Mottau returning, Colin White can be re-united with his regular partner and the two can continue providing solid defense with not much on offense for another season.
The actual pairings would beg the larger question of how would it be all set-up. Training camp would largely answer this question for all scenarios; however, the issue would be who to pair with Martin and Greene. Bryce Salvador has been paired with both to some success; but someone's getting paired with the potentially open #6 spot. I doubt Martin will be re-signed to the #5 spot, so it'll likely be Greene. The #6 spot would be a competition between Fraser, Anssi Salmela (who struggled to take a spot in Atlanta, so I'm not really optimistic), Eckford, and Matthew Corrente. I can forsee a pairing situation like the following:
Martin - Salvador
White - Mottau
Greene - Fraser
Eckford/Salmela/Corrente
The big benefit, again, is that we'll know what to expect. Not a lot of offense per se, but a group that has worked quite well together and will likely do so again.
How much could this cost the Devils? Again, since Martin is the most effective defenseman on the market that's not exactly teeming with big minute defensemen who can contribute at both ends of the rink outside of points, retaining Martin will require more than just big money but commitment. At 29 years old, I have no problem with the Devils offering something like $25-28 million for 5 years; a cap hit of $5 to $5.6 million.
Should the Devils retain Mottau, I'd like it to be a short deal with a cap hit of not much more than $1.5 million/year. I wouldn't be surprised if he got less than that; but he'll become a seven-figure player. Mottau has provided solid defense and chemistry with White, but he's 32 and that's all he'll be able to provide. Not only won't Mottau not cost much but he can be a serviceable #4 defenseman for a year or so until one of the younger players proves they're ready for his spot. Then, he can be moved down to the third pairing without costing so much to the cap.
Given my projected lineup and even expecting the worst in terms of salary (Martin at 5.6, Mottau at 1.5) makes roster), that would leave the Devils with $8.29 million left to fill in the rest of the roster and RFAs. That's not terrible, but it would put the Devils out of the running for any big names.
Scenario #2: Devils Re-sign Martin, but not Mottau
In my opinion, this would be the best possible scenario. The Devils would be able to keep their top defenseman and have the freedom to upgrade the spot Mottau took up in the lineup - either from within or with free agency.
Let's consider the replace-from-within option. They could go with youth, which I feel is a bit risky. Fraser and Salmela have never played significant minutes for most of their young NHL careers and Eckford and Corrente are still of unknown quality at the NHL level. It may be best to pair White with Greene to solidify the top-4 with veterans (Martin and Salvador up top) and then run a youthful third pairing of some combination of Fraser, Salmela, Eckford, and Corrente. They can be protected there, play relatively weak competition, and ease their way into more responsibilities. Greene will have to be ready to take on a lot of minutes, though, as Mottau played a lot at even strength last season. In fact, he had the highest TOI/60 among all UFA defensemen at 18.56.
Martin - Salvador
White - Greene
Pick Two: Fraser/Eckford/Salmela/Corrente
In terms of cost, re-signing Martin at $5.6 million and putting up Fraser and Eckford in the NJ lineup would cut the available cap space down to $9.0365 million. That's some more space available for the Devils to play with as opposed to scenario #1. The defense will still be relying mostly on Martin and Greene to provide most of the offense, and if White and Greene don't play well with each other, then it puts the Devils in a poor spot.
Now, let's consider free agency. What Mottau provided was solid defense, not much offense, played quite a bit against relatively strong competition (last season), and for under a sub-million dollar cap hit. Basically, if the Devils are going to sign a serious replacement for Mottau, they're going to have to add to their salary.
Martin - Salvador
White - UFA
Greene - Fraser/Eckford/Salmela/Corrente
At first, I thought that may be Dennis Seidenberg could make sense as a replacement. Though I'd prefer it if he would play like he did in 2008-09 instead of 2009-10. Plus, Seidenberg is 27 and can possibly command much more than the $2.25 million he made last season. Maybe not much more, but I don't think he'll provide enough to justify the extra $1.75+ million. Derek Morris' on-ice impact numbers looked very good among the UFAs; but at 30 and coming off a season where he made $3.3 million, he's really too expensive for a #4.
I really like the possibility of Joe Corvo as a replacement. He's the same age as Mottau and while he had a higher cap hit on his last contract at $2.625; but despite an injury-shortened 2009-10, he was able to contribute more on offense when on the ice, he had an excellent adjusted Corsi/60 value, his own on-ice impact wasn't positive but wasn't negative on shots against, and he accomplished all of this while playing a higher quality of competition than any Devil last season.
The benefit of adding someone like Corvo is that he's played top 4 minutes before and if he's paired next to White, then that should help cover him on defense while adding more to the offense. He'll be costly but given his age and his poor time in Washington, perhaps the Devils won't have to pay him much more than than what he made last season. Still, it would eat at the cap pretty heavily: Corvo at $2.7 million (just to throw out a number) plus Martin at $5.6 would leave $7.64 million remaining - a little less if Fraser or Eckford are on the New Jersey roster. If Corvo can put up the same numbers and offensive contributions he had in 2008-09, though, then it may be well worth it. Martin, Greene, and Corvo would definitely boost the team's offense.
Martin - Salvador
White - Greene
UFA - Fraser/Eckford/Salmela/Corrente
One additional possibility is that Greene can take the spot next to White and the Devils can sign someone lesser to play on the third pairing. Kurtis Foster and Marc-Andre Bergeron come to mind, but the two are more or less power-play specialists. Should an injury occur to the top 4, I wouldn't be confident in moving them up for a significant amount of time. Especially in the case of Bergeron, who saw weak competition at even strength and still had a slightly negative on-ice impact on shots against per 60 to a result of 30 shots against/60. I'd rather take a closer look at someone like Carlo Colaiacovo. Sure, he faced weak competition like Bergeron but at least his team enjoyed a reduction in the SA/60 rate when he stepped on the ice.
That said, finding a replacement #5 would be relatively cheaper than #4 - though I can't help but think that if the idea is to go cheap, then the Devils should avoid signing any more contracts since they have several borderline-NHL defensemen available in the system.
Scenario #3: Devils Re-Sign Mottau but not Martin
Now, this would be a difficult scenario. Without Mottau, the Devils have multiple options on how to replace him. But how do you replace a player like Martin, when he's already the most effective defenseman available on the market?
In terms of "names," Nicklas Lidstrom isn't really attainable for the reasons I said right before the jump. Rob Blake is 40 and he was really beneficial on offense more so than defense. Scott Niedermayer is 36 and coming off a 2009-10 where his main contributions were on the power play and having a great impact on SF/60. 36-year old Sergei Gonchar looks more plausible - at least he was better overall than Niedermayer - but a price tag of $5 million makes me wonder why risk having to spend that much on a player who may not be able to repeat that at age 37 when it could be spent on Martin. Adrian Aucoin ranked even better than Gonchar, especially with an excellent adjusted Corsi/60 last season. However, Gonchar got his numbers against much tougher competition than Aucoin, who didn't even play enough minutes to meet the requirements for the analysis in 2008-09.
Basically, if you want to pick a veteran to replace Martin, I'd suggest either Gonchar or Aucoin. However, who knows if they'll be available and whether. Either would have to be a stop-gap for a season or two. If Martin's not going to be retained, then I think the first choice for Lou will be Dan Hamhuis.
At age 27, Hamhuis has improved from 2008-09 to 2009-10 at even strength and while his quality of competition was less than Martin's, he did it with worse quality of teammates. To me, this suggests that he can definitely hold his own defensively on a first pairing, play big minutes, yield positive adjusted Corsi/60 when on the ice, and be a long-term answer on defense. Hamhuis isn't without flaws, he didn't contribute much to Nashville's power play and his performance on the penalty kill last season wasn't what you would call admirable.
I would prefer Hamhuis over Anton Volchenkov because Volchenkov's shot-blocking tendencies tend to bang him up for parts of the season and his 2009-10 season saw a drop in his on-ice impact on shots against. Not something you want to see in a shutdown defenseman, even if he did improve in his on-ice impact for the offensive stats. I'd even prefer Hamhuis over Zybnek Michalek; while Michalek faced very strong competition with really weak teammates, he ranked poorly across the board except in goals for on-ice impact. Given his 3 goals and 14 assists, I don't think he's going to be contributing enough on offense to justify leading a blueline. At least Hamhuis has broken 20 points.
The only other real option I can think of - and maybe this would be better? - is to hope Andy Greene can reprise his role from much of 2009-10 to lead the defense again, platoon most of the minutes along with the White-Mottau pairing, and the Devils can sign a #2/#3 defenseman. Here, Hamhuis would be more attractive as a signing, Dennis Seidenberg, Jordan Leopold, or Henrik Tallinder would also fit well. Pavel Kubina has good point totals, but his on-ice impact is nothing to write for someone who is coming off a $5 million/year cap hit of a deal.
UFA - Greene
White - Mottau
Salvador - Fraser/Eckford/Salmela/Corrente
Of course, cost really comes into play: the Devils have may have to drop $3-4 million for Hamhuis, Seidenberg, or Tallinder. (Possibly a little less for Leopold since he's coming off a lower cap hit?) Maybe even a bit more depending on how the market plays out. That may be beneficial on the Devils' salary cap; a $4.5 million deal for, say, Hamhuis plus $1.5 million for Mottau (again, worst case), and there would be $9.44 million left for the rest of the summer. However, the defense would basically be replacing an arguable #1 defenseman in Martin with players who definitely are not.
Plus, you'd also be crossing your fingers the Devils can accept a downgrade to someone acceptable like Hamhuis, Seidenberg, or Tallinder; because if they go, we could see a horrible repeat of the panic-signings of Vladimir Malakhov and Dan McGillis from a few years ago.
Lastly, if you really want to relive 2009-10, the Devils could push Salvador up top with Greene, and then make a cheap UFA signing for the #5 spot, and hope there will be a better crop of defensemen available in the summer of 2011. Do I think they'll be able to repeat the success they had last season? Not really, and so I would think the Devils need at least a top 4 defenseman to replace a top-2 defenseman in Martin.
Scenario #4: Devils don't re-sign Martin or Mottau
Those fears would intensify if the Devils can't keep either.
My suggestion would be a combination of Scenarios #2 and #3. I don't think it's the best to put the #1 and #4 spots both in the hands of the young defensemen available. The Devils will need to fill in those spots with players who have at least played in a top 4 before. My gut reaction is to hope for Hamhuis and Corvo as the former is more than capable defensively whereas the latter can still improve the offense of the group. Of course, even with a defensive group like this, you're still going to hope that Greene or Hamhuis can be the leader - and that's a risk.
UFA - Greene
White - UFA
Salvador - Fraser/Eckford/Salmela/Corrente
Again, Salvador could step up again along with hoping Greene steps up again, and therefore the Devils can look to save some money being having that second UFA fill in on the third pairing. However, the issue of depth comes up again not to mention that the hope will still be that Greene, White, and Salvador can perform as well as they did last season. If you want to see the defense improve, then a signing needs to be made; but I think that for the defense just to have any hope of maintaining how well they've played, they'll have to make signings.
That will add further to the cost. Just for kicks, let's go with the thought of Hamhuis (4.5) and Corvo (2.7) are the replacements and they go into the top 4. Great. At the cap hits I'm thinking for each, that would leave $8.74 million left, $8.24 if Fraser takes the #6 spot. Even if the salaries are a little less, signing two defensemen who can capably play in the top 4 will likely take at least $5 million total to the Devils' cap.
Ultimately, Martin is the Highest Priority
We can argue and quibble about what the other UFA defensemen as well as Martin and Mottau are really worth and how much they'll get, but I used salaries just to highlight how much of the cap they'll take up. Quality defenders require quality salaries. Therefore, just to maintain the defense's quality either with or without Martin, the Devils really can't afford to go after any big name without forcing themselves to fill in other spots at minimum cost.
Unless Martin is demanding something really high like $6 million per year, which I think is unlikely since a 80-to-100-point 22 year old center is now taking a $6.7 million/year cap hit, the Devils should make all attempts to retain Martin. He can be signed long term, perhaps to a sweet front-loaded deal that could allow him to retire later with the cap hit coming off the books later on.
After all, if he's the most effective defenseman on the market this summer, then replacing him isn't easy nor cheap. I feel that going forward, Martin leading the defense is not only the best available option but a great option as it is. He has performed very well in the last two seasons (08-09, 09-10) at even strength. He's done it before so why not continue until a better market or a heir apparent is properly groomed (as in, not rushed) up the depth chart? As far as the offensive deficiencies, they can be addressed by an addition deeper down the depth chart, and therefore not cost as much as it would for a top pairing replacement.
After all that I've written, now you know what I think the Devils should do on defense - that the best option is to retain Martin if possible. Do you agree? If not, who do you want to see replace Martin and/or Mottau? Should the Devils not be able to replace either of them, do you agree that it would be the worst case scenario? Let me know what you think in the comments.
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Mottau is easily replaceable. Martin may get alot of money, but if Lou knows what he’s doing he’s going to sign Martin to a long term front loaded contract. I doubt that he’s going to get a contract w/ a cap hit of $5 mil/season, but teams will offer front loaded contracts where he’ll make most of his money early on in the contract
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by Kevin Sellathamby on May 17, 2010 9:29 PM EDT reply actions
A front loaded contract would be the best way to go. Some may grouse about the loophole, but I say, take every inch and turn it into a mile.
Mottau’s replaceable, yes. His bargain price, not so much, but it all can’t be sunshine and rainbows, I suppose. I really hope Scenario #2 happens more so than anything else.
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by John Fischer on May 17, 2010 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I defintely do NOT want mottau resigned…his porous play and weak offense numbers have been embarassing to watch..he coughs up the puck SO much in the defensive zone..i do argee, keeping martin is a priority, but at the same time im skeptical..martin missed 60 games with that shoulder injury, an injury which, if i recall correctly, was supposed to sideline him for one to 2 months, roughly 15 or so games..not 60! in addition, martin hasn’t played a full season since 2006-2007..not exactly the reliability you want out of a supposed #1 defender…i have strong belief in the young guys eckford and corrente..yes there are unproven, but thats because they havent had a chance to play big time minutes in th nhl!! the devils have kept these two in the minors for the past 3 years! if there as good as lou praises them to be, then LET THEM PLAY!! if martin leaves, i wont be sad..let eckford and corrente play and bring in a hamhuis or even corvo! lastly, martin is the only big time defenseman in free agency this year, and could demand alot of money, and im not a fan of the devils shelling out 5 mil a year to a guy who hasn’t played 82 games in 3 years!
by nj devils rock life 4ever on May 17, 2010 10:00 PM EDT reply actions
lastly, martin is the only big time defenseman in free agency this year, and could demand alot of money, and im not a fan of the devils shelling out 5 mil a year to a guy who hasn’t played 82 games in 3 years!
Well, of course Martin hasn’t played 82 games in 3 years.
He’s played 168. (73 in 07-08, 73 in 08-09, 22 in 09-10)
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by John Fischer on May 17, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And it wasn’t a shoulder injury, it was a broken left arm. You can read his injury history here.
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by John Fischer on May 17, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
shoulder, broken left arm, makes no difference…it was in that arm area…..and yea playing only 168 out of 246 possible games is a big deal!!! thats only 68 percent of games played!!! additionally, how a player plays in the playoffs is huge…in last 2 years (12 games) martin has 4 points!!! thats it!! 4 assists!! on top of that, he hasnt scored more than 6 goals in HIS CAREER!!! and that was back in his rookie season!! since then, his highest: 5!! something tells me that paul martin may be an overrated defenseman…im not sold on him being the priority for the devils! finding a goalie for the future (i.e. carey price) is essential for the devils! another KEY thing to do: LOCK UP ZACH PARISE!!!!!!!!!!
by nj devils rock life 4ever on May 18, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So many exclamation marks, so little sense
The Devils have until July 1, 2011 to lock up Parise and even then they only have to tender him an offer to keep his rights for at least another season. They have plenty of time to retain Parise.
Moreover, Brodeur’s signed through 2011-12, the time for finding “a goalie of the future” is also plentiful.
I’d be concerned with Paul Martin’s goal scoring if his job was to score goals. As a defenseman, it’s not. Believe it or not, as great as points are, a player can contribute on offense while not necessarily getting goals himself.
If you don’t think he should be the Devils’ top priority in signing, fine; but this isn’t really as good of a basis as any.
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by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Basing someone’s worth on stats is pointless. Some players play better on one team rather than another. So is Paul Martin really the best UFA defensemen or is he the only one that has reached his potential?
Do you have a better way?
It’s pointless?
Precisely how is anyone supposed to make a decision on who they should and shouldn’t sign without them?
I’d love to hear an answer. (By the way, just watching someone isn’t acceptable. Not only is untenable to watch every single defenseman play enough to determine their true skills, but confirmation bias will color observations.)
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by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 7:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So you are saying you would base who you want on this team by stats of a player on another team. That doesn’t make sense to me. Every team plays differently, every coach handles players differently. Some coach could notice something a player is doing wrong that another wouldn’t. That’s why players are scouted.
Just from this year there are plenty of examples of players with poor stats on one team and great stats on another.Guillaume Latendresse never broke 20 goals in his career with the Canadiens but scored 25 in 55 games with the Wild. Benoit Pouliot couldn’t even make the Wild lineup but got 24 pts in 39 games with the Canadiens. Peter Mueller struggled his whole career in Phoenix put had 20 pts in 15 games with Colorado. Lee Stempniak had 14 goals in 62 games for Toronto and 14 goals in 18 games for Phoenix. Well Phoenix was a better team you say, but Alexei Ponikarovsky went from Toronto to Pittsburgh and his numbers went down.
So again how do you know how someone will play with Devils by looking at their stats from another team. I’m sure looking at numbers helps somewhat but it isn’t nearly enough to fully judge how a player performs.
Are you being serious?
I’ll be the first person to tell you that statistics are too heavily relied on by some people, especially in hockey, but to even suggest that using their past performance to assess them is pointless is just ridiculous.
Statistics are guidelines. Where people err is when they assume past = future (or they only look at small sample sizes, like 55 games or 15 games or 62 games or 18 games). But the mistake is made for a reason… there’s some truth to it.
If you put Mike Mottau on the Washington Capitals, he’s not going to turn into a gifted scorer. He may put up more points due to the system in place, and might even set personal records for goals scored, but he’s not going to suddenly be Mike Green.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
Ok you’re right by saying stats aren’t pointless but you still can’t determine someone’s worth to every team from their stats from one team. You brought up Mike Green who is a Norris trophy candidate this year. Would his style fit well on a more defensive minded team. Probably not because he thrives from playing on a more offensive minded team. You wouldn’t be able to tell that from looking at stats but by watching how he plays.
So I guess looking at stats gives you a general idea of how a player will produce. But you have to watch a player to know if he can play better or worse under your coach and your system. Figuring out how much a player is worth is more than just numbers which is why Brian Gionta makes $5 million a year.
by C.J. Richey on May 18, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
They’re just a tool. I don’t think anyone is suggesting they’re the only way to assess a player (because if they were, I’d be right there with you arguing against that train of thought), but they are the one fans can dissect, argue and debate that aren’t just opinions (so perhaps it seems they get too much attention).
The thing about them is the sample size. Anyone can have a great game or stretch of games or even season (or the reverse, a bad one), but it’s statistically impossible to maintain it unless you actually are that good (or bad). Sure there are other things to consider, like team concept and teammates, etc., which people should, but they’re harder to quantify and impossible to argue, as they’re effectively opinions (which is all a scout is, a professional guesser).
When it comes to calculating the value of a player, you have to start somewhere and how they’ve performed in the past is as good a place as any. Obviously there are other factors involved, like supply and demand, that will affect it, but if the guy has shown he can be effective over a period of time, there’s no reason not to think he won’t continue to be. The question is, just how effective and how much are you willing to pay to find out?
As to Green, the stats actually can tell you how he plays:
He starts in the offensive zone 57.6% of the time – 3rd highest on his team (1st among defensemen), more often than even Ovechkin
He plays against tough competition, but not nearly the toughest (0.005 QualComp rating) and benefits from playing with strong teammates (0.323 QualTeam rating)
GF/60 rise significantly when he’s on the ice (from 2.75 off to 4.48 on) while GA/60 also rise when he’s on the ice (from 2.03 off to 2.36 on).
Without having ever seen him play, if you gave me his numbers I’d guess he was a forward… which is just how he plays.
The whole Norris nomination is just an example of how those awards are as much reputational or the voters being enamored with a guy as actual performance.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
Agree with C.J. Richey
Martin’s offensive numbers are less than flattering…..His defensive number are GOOD…but so is the entire teams. You have to remember Martin has scored only 26 Career Goals…..Can he pass yes….
So we have Mottau which noone really seems to like and seems be expandable getting about 16 pts a year
Martin gets about 30, but Martin is worth 4-5 times more than Mottau?
You said it yourself, Mottau is solid defensively….He is thrown in the NJ system which greatly bring up all NJ defenders. For you to compare Hamhuis to McGillis and Malakov is off base….Hamhuis is strong player on an average defensive team. I bet you throw him into NJ, you will get the solid result of Martin and the front of Brodeur would be cleared out.
Lets just say we give Martin offensive freedom and throw him into Washington, do you think he would really put up Mike Green’s number. Doubtful.
Martin is a balanced player, but not a game changer either offensively or defensively.
I do NOT think it is smart to lock up Martin until he is 32 for over 5 Million. Your paying him like he will change a game, but yet here we are cupless…
Huh?
I’m sorry but there is nothing about this post that I understand.
Who is it in response to? Exactly what are you agreeing with C.J. about? Who said what about Mottau or Hamhuis or McGillis or Malakov? Martin on Washington, what now? Who is advocating paying him like that?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
Latendresse shot 18.8% with the Wild.
Prior to those 55 games, his career shooting percentage was 12.5%
Do you think it was a “change of scenery” or amazing lucky streak?
If you think it was the scenery bit, do you expect him to again shoot significantly over 12.5% again this coming season?
If you were negotiating a contract with the player, would you value his worth to the team on the 12.5% shooting percentage or the 18.8% shooting percentage. Which of these numbers is Latendresse likely to duplicate in any given season from now to the end of his career?
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Hint: Latendresse’s prior shooting percentage from each of his last seasons:
2008-09: 12.0
2007-08: 13.8
2006-07: 13.2
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In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 20, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Re-signing a player who missed 90% of the season due to injury is NEVER a number one priority for any team, in any sport, espesially not re-signing that player for a significant increase in what they made previously. Moroever, I’m not sure re-signing Martin should be the “number one” priority for the Devils this off season even if he had played the whole year because it is in my view (and I dont think it would be stretching too much to say there was a rather large consensus on this point among devil fans following the philly series) offense that needs to be a number one priority. We had a difficult end of the season and a terrible post season not because of goaltending or defense but because there wasnt a single line on the team that consistently light the lamp. That makes either resigning Kovy or addressing offensive problems through free agency without Kovy a number one priority. Martin is a very talented, though not an elite defenseman (even if he happens to be the best one on the market this offseason) who missed most of last year due to an injury he had trouble overcoming. He would be a nice player to retain, but surely the fact that he didnt produce last year should factor into the money we give him. I hope we do retain him, but I hope even more so that retaining him doesnt come at the expense of addressing in a serious way our offensive woes.
I highly suggest checking your math. 22 games played out of 82 isn’t 90% of the season.
I certainly do agree that offense has to be addressed. I don’t see why that precludes Martin to not be an important signing. It’s not as if the Devils need to break the bank for Plekanec or Marleau.
If anything because there’s not a true replacement for him available, the risk of having the defense plus the offense as an issue.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 7:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Losing him would seriously hurt the Devils. And since we don’t have many of his skill level that wear a Devils Jersey, its very important we try and keep him.Improving the offense is important this off season and it would help to get some defenseman that can help the forwards out in the department. I know, its not bloody likely given the contracts that White and Salvador have though.
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by thatguy011071 on May 18, 2010 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Toughest decision Lou is facing this offseason. I agree that Martin is the best defenseman available but Im wary about giving him big years and big money because it could handicap the Devils down the road (cough cough Rolston cough cough). An analogous situation is Brian Campbell. When he was signed by the Hawks he was the “best defenseman on the market” and he got 7 years and $56 million (granted the Hawks overpaid to make a splash). While Campbell is a solid player he’s not even in the top 2 on his team now AND his contract likely forces the Hawks to trade Seabrook (or possibly Versteeg or Byfuglien) this summer.
Would the Devils defense be weakened by the loss of Paul Martin? Definitely.
Is Paul Martin worth over $5 million a year for a minimum of 4-5 seasons? Not so sure.
Could resigning Martin ultimately come back to haunt the team? Possibly.
Is it more important to get a few centers who can win faceoffs consistently? Maybe…
Status Quo
If the defense stays status quo, I don’t feel the Devils would have done themselves any good. Signing Martin is important but improving the overall skill level of the defense is important too. I think Corrente deserves a serious look in training camp as well as Eckford. Make my pal Mottau the 7th defenseman, if he stays at all.
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I would look at the potential and depth at each position. Is Martin worth 5-5.5mil/yr for 4-5 years (saying in money: “You’re a top defensemen”) even with what’s ahead for the Devils defense? Also, assuming Eckford and Fraser are resigned, and Corrente getting some really good playing time late this season. Do the Devils see these guys, as well as White, Salvador, Greene, and Salmela as a future(in 4-5 years) top defensemen? Aside from Greene, who is a UFA next season, I would say no. I think Corrente, Eckford have the ability to be in that 2-4 spot, Fraser to me is the next Colin White.
Also, like a few have said, there are other positions at need (center), and the depth and potential at center is very low IMO. Sestito and Pelley(sort of?) are UFA and RFA respectively. Josefson and Henrique have good potential but are still a year or 2 away. Spend the money you are able to (Greene and Parise are free agents next year) to re-sign Martin and get a center in free agency (Matt Lombardi would be great). I would even throw a NTC in for Martin.
In 4-5 years, I could see the D pairings be:
Martin-Greene
Eckford-Corrente
Fraser-Urbum
by Matthew Ventolo on May 18, 2010 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
Are you this obsessed with Martin
John,
I do not understand how you think Martin is GOD.
When has he led NJ in the playoffs and really changed the series?
When has he consistantly stolen games from other team?
When has he created fear for the opposition?
Hell, when he was out for 2/3 of the season, the Devils still won game…So how can you argue that a player who is statiscal the best defenseman on the best defensive team (where all the D-Men numbers are impressive) deserves over 5 Mil and should be the cornerstone of our cupless defense?
Signing Martin is keeping 90% of the defense in tact.
You say getting Martin for 5 and Mottau for 1….What else can get?
You May get a Hamhuis and Seidenberg for 1 Mill more…You may get Hamhuis and Leopold also.
The problem I have is that you feel that every free agent is a downgrade. All you base this on is stats…Stats can mislead…Especially when you have the best defensive team and may be comparing to the worst. It doesn’t account for the defense mindedness of the forwards, it does not factor in who they are playing against (line), it does not factor in who their line mate is.
You can even use Martin as an example…Here is someone who was undrafted…so his stats at some point did not justify a #1 pick, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7 for 30 teams… However, Lou did see something after the fact, something other than just statistics.
I feel you may grown “tunnel vision” and focus too much on Martin. Your logic has some flaws.
I do not understand how you think Martin is GOD.
Exaggerate much?
When has he led NJ in the playoffs and really changed the series?
When has he consistantly stolen games from other team?
When has he created fear for the opposition?
Is that a defenseman’s job? If so, who in the league fits that bill?
Hell, when he was out for 2/3 of the season, the Devils still won game…So how can you argue that a player who is statiscal [sic] the best defenseman on the best defensive team (where all the D-Men numbers are impressive) deserves over 5 Mil and should be the cornerstone of our cupless defense?
Marty missed 50 games last year and the team did well. So, by your logic, Brodeur shouldn’t be the team’s goalie?
And, not all the defensemen’s numbers are impressive, but nice try.
The problem I have is that you feel that every free agent is a downgrade.
Because a statistical comparison shows that to be the case?
All you base this on is stats…Stats can mislead…
Ah, of course. As can the, erm, method you used… uhhh. Wait, just how exactly are you arriving at your conclusions about who is worth what?
Especially when you have the best defensive team and may be comparing to the worst.
Emphasis mine. Do you have any reason to believe or evidence to show that this was the case?
It doesn’t account for the defense mindedness of the forwards, it does not factor in who they are playing against (line), it does not factor in who their line mate is.
Actually, things like QualComp and QualTeam factor exactly that. Read up on them sometime.
Man, and I’m against the overuse of statistics, but this is the second time today I’ve found myself defending their usage.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
elesias...1
You’re gonna break your hand if you keep slapping the guy like that
If Andrew Peters ever plays again it will be too soon.
by LangsForPres on May 18, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Stats can be your friend
There’s no “silver bullet” state that proves how good a single player is (yet), but looking at players differently and in comparison gives us a better notion than just observation or relying on consensus. If anything, stats may be looked down upon for smashing consensus in the face.
It is exactly a tool. It doesn’t mean they’ll always make correct decisions, but it’s a start and I feel an improvement all the same.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 1:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But to say Martin is the best based upon just stats is a bit extreme. If you just looked at Leadership…Is Martin near the top?
Lidstrom yes….Parise Yes…Scott Stevens Yes…Paul Martin???
What about game changer?
Lidstrom yes…Parise Yes…Scott Stevens Yes…Paul Martin ???
Paying Martin over 5 Mill is a financially poor mistake given the need to upgrade offensively and paying Martin twice what Parise gets is a bit far fetched. So now does Parise feel he should get 8 Mill cuz Martin got 5? Or does Parise get 5 like Martin when Parise is a far more valuable asset that Martin is.
Exaggerate much?
Yes, when he keep touting him as if he were.
Is that a defenseman’s job? If so, who in the league fits that bill?
Pronger did a pretty damn good job of manhandling NJ……Niedermayer, Stevens, and Daneyko all did that in NJ. Lidstrom is feared….
Marty missed 50 games last year and the team did well. So, by your logic, Brodeur shouldn’t be the team’s goalie?
And, not all the defensemen’s numbers are impressive, but nice try.
Brodeur himself had said he benefits from the NJ system, and why he stayed in NJ. So again, your point is stifled. Clemmensen leaves NJ and does what, becomes a backup to Vokoun and becomes in consistant when he plays…puts up average numbers against weak comp., gets lit against WSH and a few others. He was always a bad rebound away from being pulled. Brodeur doesn’t give rebounds and does not need the D-Men and Wingers to back him like Clemmy did.
Ah, of course. As can the, erm, method you used… uhhh. Wait, just how exactly are you arriving at your conclusions about who is worth what?
I combination of statistics and understanding the NHL systems. It doesn’t take an academic scholar to know the conservative system makes average defense look good.
Emphasis mine. Do you have any reason to believe or evidence to show that this was the case?
Yes, you are comparing NEW JERSEY…THE BEST DEFENSIVE TEAM….so any other team in inferior.
Actually, things like QualComp and QualTeam factor exactly that. Read up on them sometime.
Man, and I’m against the overuse of statistics, but this is the second time today I’ve found myself defending their usage.
Stats are just one thing…They should be used…Pro NHL scouts do not only use stats. So how can you say it is everything, when there are certain things that can’t be justified with stats alone…Lemaire doesn’t along with Langs, team becomes weak…is that a stat?
Seriously, what is your hockey background, have you ever played, were you coached by anyone good? or are you just a boob who like to roam message boards and act tough.
Yes, when he keep touting him as if he were.
Got a cite where anyone anywhere even remotely suggests Paul Martin is (the, one of, or a) God?
John made 4 or 5 posts of statistical analysis, free of opinion or personal feelings. If you feel those are pro-Martin posts, that’s because they show that he’s a great defenseman.
Pronger did a pretty damn good job of manhandling NJ……Niedermayer, Stevens, and Daneyko all did that in NJ. Lidstrom is feared….
So 5 guys in the entire league. Four fit the criteria you put forth. Stevens and Daneyko no longer play and are thus, not in the league. That leaves 2 guys, one who is likely to retire and the other who’s locked up until he retires. Two guys and 30 teams. Do you see the conundrum?
Brodeur himself had said he benefits from the NJ system, and why he stayed in NJ.
Brodeur doesn’t give rebounds and does not need the D-Men and Wingers to back him like Clemmy did.
So, which is it?
I combination of statistics and understanding the NHL systems. It doesn’t take an academic scholar to know the conservative system makes average defense look good.
So, your answer to my question about how you judge players if you feel stats can mislead, is that you use stats?
Stats are just one thing…They should be used…
Ah. So is this considered backtracking, or talking out of both sides of your mouth? I always get those two confused.
Pro NHL scouts do not only use stats. So how can you say it is everything, when there are certain things that can’t be justified with stats alone
I said that?
…Lemaire doesn’t [sic] along with Langs, team becomes weak…is that a stat?
I’m not sure if this is a serious question or not. No… ? Did I say it was? Did anyone? Is someone arguing that statistics are the only thing one should pay attention to? Did I cross over into Bizarro World?
Seriously, what is your hockey background, have you ever played, were you coached by anyone good?
Is this where you tell me how your years of experience somehow trumps me because you played at X level for Y years and once shook hands with famous player/coach Z?
or are you just a boob who like to roam message boards and act tough.
Keep the argumentum ad hominem to a minimum. You disagree with my argument, that’s just fine, disagree with it. But don’t deign to think you know me well enough to insult me. It just makes your untenable stance seem all the more weak when you spend more time attacking the debater than their argument.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
Got a cite where anyone anywhere even remotely suggests Paul Martin is (the, one of, or a) God?
John made 4 or 5 posts of statistical analysis, free of opinion or personal feelings. If you feel those are pro-Martin posts, that’s because they show that he’s a great defenseman
No..But the constant promotion of him as the solution is a weak arguement given we are still cupless…Is that not what we all want? No one plays for a great season…Lou himself always looks out for the team, not just a player….The refusal to see an answer outside of Martin creates this GOD like persona. Did I mean GOD literally…No but I assume you knew that.
So 5 guys in the entire league. Four fit the criteria you put forth. Stevens and Daneyko no longer play and are thus, not in the league. That leaves 2 guys, one who is likely to retire and the other who’s locked up until he retires. Two guys and 30 teams. Do you see the conundrum?
Ok I was not planning on listing everyone. Lets throw in Mike Green based on his ability to turn a weak attack against a create a scoring play. Lets throw in Phanuef, Bouwmeester for offense, Kaberle, Chara….See the point here. Open your eyes.
So, which is it?
Brodeur says he benefits, meaning some of stats are padded slightly, but is still the best goalie out there. A prolonged Clemm would not have been good for NJ. But again I assume you knew what I was talking about and was just trying to make some witty comeback.
So, your answer to my question about how you judge players if you feel stats can mislead, is that you use stats?
Don’t understand what your getting at here….I said you use more than stats…systems…leadership, game changing ability….
Ah. So is this considered backtracking, or talking out of both sides of your mouth? I always get those two confused.
Now I will use analysis that I’m sure you’ll understand….Picture a table…can a table stand on one leg??? NO
Lets pretend one leg is stats…..one leg is leadership…on leg is system compatability….one leg is game changing ability…..Now you have a table…so like I said…stats can be used, but can’t be everything. Again, Ill assume you knew that too and were playing dumb.
Pro NHL scouts do not only use stats. So how can you say it is everything, when there are certain things that can’t be justified with stats alone
Your previous quote:
Because a statistical comparison shows that to be the case?
Is this where you tell me how your years of experience somehow trumps me because you played at X level for Y years and once shook hands with famous player/coach Z?
Nope, I didn’t mention any of that…did I? I was asking about yours, which is stil unaswered. I make a valid arguement I believe you should be more than just a fanboy.
Keep the argumentum ad hominem to a minimum. You disagree with my argument, that’s just fine, disagree with it. But don’t deign to think you know me well enough to insult me. It just makes your untenable stance seem all the more weak when you spend more time attacking the debater than their argument.
The sad part is, we are looking for a winning team, and both you and I agree Martin is not worth 5.5 Mill and there are other needs to be addressed and he is not a #1 defender. So who started this?
Like I said in other posts….We can spend 5 mill on Martin, which will have us spending atleast that, maybe closer to 7- 8 on parise….How can anyone justify Martin to be a 5 mill player when Parise gets under 3….Now you bump Martin up to 5…We have Rolston, Martin, Brodeur, Elias making up almost 50% of the teams salary and not making a difference come playoffs. Dump Martin, get to people who can solidify the defense even more, and spend money on a center that can set up Rolston or Elias.
I would rather have 2 # 2 DMEN (Hamhuis/Seidenberg/Leopold/Coliacovo) making up the team over a #1 and #4 in Martin and Mottau with a cost that is about the same…Given the right payer they will make the defense better…we were fine without Martin for 2/3 with minor leaguers I don’t see how any of the above would be a downgrade over that.
You really think Mottau is a #4? What about promoting a couple of kids from the AHL?
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by thatguy011071 on May 18, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
No..But the constant promotion of him as the solution
You greatly misinterpret what anyone is saying about Martin. As richer44 succinctly points out below, he’s the best defenseman on the team, and the best of those that will be available in free agency this year.
The refusal to see an answer outside of Martin creates this GOD like persona.
What refusal? Once again, he is the best defenseman on the team, and the best of those that will be available in free agency.
So Chara, Green, Phaneuf and Bouwmeester all “[lead] the team in the playoffs and really [change] the series” and “consistantly [sic] [steal] games from other team” and “[create] fear for the opposition”?
Open YOUR eyes. There aren’t any defensemen that can do all of those things, and maybe a handful that can do any two of the three… which is my point. These guys don’t grow on trees and so not every team has one. Sure it’d be great to have one, but for the ~25 teams that don’t, they need to make due with what they do have.
Don’t understand what your getting at here….I said you use more than stats…systems…leadership, game changing ability….
Well, it was largely rhetorical anyway, to point out your hypocrisy, so don’t worry too much about it.
Again, Ill assume you knew that too and were playing dumb.
Yeah, go with that.
Your previous quote:
Because a statistical comparison shows that to be the case?
In response to your previous quote: “The problem I have is that you feel that every free agent is a downgrade.”
The data shows that to be the case. Where’s the issue? Look at the FA list. There is no one out there currently available who is going to be your table legs, or whatever dumb analogy you’re attempting to draw. And if there were, there’s no way the team will or should offer the gobs of money they’re going to command in such a poor market.
Nope, I didn’t mention any of that…did I? I was asking about yours, which is stil unaswered. I make a valid arguement I believe you should be more than just a fanboy.
I’m a talking plant for all you know, and that’s all you need to know.
So who started this?
I’d have to say it started with the original misinterpretation of the author’s posts way back in your original post.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
Martin was drafted in the second round in 2000, 61st overall.
The problem I have is that you feel that every free agent is a downgrade. All you base this on is stats
To be fair, I did note that Nicklas Lidstrom was not a downgrade – just that signing him would be highly unlikely.
Well, most people try to find some sort of evidence to back up a claim. For example:
When has he led NJ in the playoffs and really changed the series?
When has he consistantly stolen games from other team?
When has he created fear for the opposition?
These are claims. Most people would try to find evidence, something that proves your argument. I’m not sure how these are even provable. Or even relevant since Martin’s job isn’t to be a leader, steal games (?), and frighten the opposition. It’s to be a two-way defenseman, and he’s done that quite well.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
am I taking crazy pills?
…or are we making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be? Facts:
- Paul Martin is the best defenseman in the New Jersey Devils organization. Stats support it, watching him play supports it, reading tea leaves or tarot cards or whatever non-statistical ‘evidence’ you want to cite support it.
- Paul Martin is not Scott Stevens. Or Scott Niedermayer. Or Mike Green.
- Paul Martin IS the best UFA defenseman on the market, with the possible exception of Nick Lidstrom, who is 40 and unlikely to change teams.
- Paul Martin made $4.5 million this year. He is NOT making less than that next year. He will ABSOLUTELY make more.
- The readers of ILWT are not the only people on the planet who know Paul Martin is the best UFA defenseman on the market. Someone is going to throw some serious coin his way.
- It is reasonable to assume that the Devils would prefer not to give up a defenseman they cannot replace from within the organization or via free agency.
- Therefore, the Devils – probably – will offer Martin a long-term contract with a cap hit of somewhere between $5-6 million, the going rate for a prime-aged defenseman who is #1 on the depth chart.
Call that Martin-worshipping if you like, but them’s the facts. Whether or not he’s worth the money he’ll get is immaterial; he is worth what the market makes him worth. If it’s in the best interests of the organization to keep him – and I believe it is – then Lou will have to spend some money to do so.
by richer44 on May 18, 2010 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lets use the facts:
-The defense we have isn’t working…(no regular season does not count)
-Cupless
-With Martin, Rolston, Brodeur, Elias we have now used 50% of our cap (almost for literal elesias) for an aging group in Brodeur, Rolston and Elias…..We still need to lock in Parise….so now that those players get about 5.5-6….how do we sign him….We all know he is the best player NJ has right now. So now we throw what 7-8 Mill his way?
So now We have Parise 7, Brodeur 5, Rolston 5, Elias 6, and Martin 5.5…28.5….That leaves us with 30 Mil to keep the rest of the team!??! What about a center… to set up Elias and Rolston..
So now you have Martin signed…what do you spend to get a replacement for Mottau…yes I know you can go the unproven route, but thats not an upgrade that we know of yet…Are we developing Eckford to be a replacement for Martin? So now you can only spend so much to get an upgrade over Mottau…So is it really a defensive upgrade when we have the same player who got man handled vs. Philly….Outskated, Outmuscled…How many lingering players did Philly have before NJ finally realized it…Can we clear the fron of the net?!?!
So now Lets say we sign anyone other than Kovy on offense…because we cant sign him and Martin….we ended up trading Mottau a 4…for maybe a 3 at best…We traded Kovy a #1 for a #2-3……..How did we improve anything?
are you talking this year or next year? Parise isn’t getting signed this summer.
If the defense we have isn’t working, what makes you think losing the best defenseman on the team will make it any better? So Martin stays, Mottau gets shipped for a slight upgrade – if nothing improves, at least it didn’t get worse.
There isn’t any way this off-season to upgrade the defense via free agency. It just ain’t gonna happen. So if winning a cup is the goal, how is weakening the defense going to help?
Show me the stats that prove Paul Martin was ‘manhandled’ by Philly – did GA/60 go up or GF/60 go down when he was on the ice? Do his WOWY numbers show he made his teammates worse? Or are we reading tea leaves again?
Plenty of other teams have top-heavy salary situations – The Capitals’ top-end numbers for next year are $9M, 6.7M, 6M, and 5M – that’s 26.7 million for 4 players. The Blackhawks’ are 7M, 5.6M, 5.2M, and 3.9M – and would be much worse if they didn’t game the CBA with Hossa’s contract.
I’m not saying the Devils SHOULDN’T upgrade their defense, I’m just saying letting Paul Martin go would mean they CAN’T.
Not true….That would be saying is hands down the best out there…Which he isn’t…His offense is alright…Consistant 30 pt D Man….Defense is strong. I would rather have two above average dmen, with a reasonable cap hit, than one good and one average dmen. It is about making the entire unit stronger…You cant shell out $ for Martin and sign another good upgrade without addresses our center and RFA issues.
Are you seriously comparing and old rolston, Brodeur, Elias to Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom……Sign me up for that trade
Or Kane…Toews….Keith….
Did the devils win? How many streaking flyers were left un picked up……can we win a race to the puck or clear the net…the defense couldnt provide a strong foundation for the offense.,
I'm not richer44 but I can't imagine he or she would have the patience to respond, so I will.
Defense is strong. I would rather have two above average dmen, with a reasonable cap hit, than one good and one average dmen. It is about making the entire unit stronger…You cant shell out $ for Martin and sign another good upgrade without addresses our center and RFA issues.
Again, with the contradictions. The defense was strong before, how does replacing Martin and Mottau with two above average d-men – like who, I have no idea since you haven’t given any names – make the defense better?
And you totally can shell out money for Martin and sign other players. You just can’t sign big names. Which is fine because the Devils don’t need big names.
Are you seriously comparing and old rolston, Brodeur, Elias to Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom……Sign me up for that trade
Or Kane…Toews….Keith….
The point he/she was making was that Chicago and Washington are top heavy in terms of their cap. There’s no trade. There’s no comparison of talent. Just that the Devils having a bunch of high salaries in a few players isn’t unique in the NHL.
Please learn to read others comments before responding.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
ok now you're just talking nonsense.
Fischer spent FIVE POSTS explaining how Paul Martin is the best UFA defenseman on the market. Go read those.
I’m not comparing players, I’m comparing salaries. The way to maintain a strong team in the current CBA is to pay your top-end players top-end money. It is not unheard of for a team to tie up a lot of cap space on a handful of players.
There is absolutely no way you can blame the loss to the Flyers on Paul Martin without sounding like a crazy person.
And you still haven’t explained to me how two 2 defensemen who are worse than Paul Martin are somehow better than having Paul Martin and upgrade-over-Mottau-X.
Because you need a full unit to work…Great Martin can shut down line one…But lets rely on Mottau to shut down line two….How is that an upgrade over this year?
I never said keep Mottau. I’d be glad to let the guy walk and find an upgrade on the market, or at least younger legs with similar talent.
Maybe you’re not hearing me – any scenario without Paul Martin on the Devils IS NOT AN UPGRADE. It’s treading water, or a stopgap, or a contingency, but you can’t give away the best player on the market, replace him with players who are less good, and call it an upgrade. Don’t take a quarter from me, give me two dimes back and tell me I’m turning a profit because I have more coins in my pocket.
Let’s look at your facts:
-Regular season does count. It’s what gets them into the playoffs.
-So too will 29 other teams be.
-You know what the Cap will be next year? Lou could probably use that information…
Neither do you know Martin’s salary, but even assuming a cap hit of $5m, those four players add up to a cap hit of just over $21m, which isn’t even really close to being “almost” 50% of last season’s $56.8m cap… and it’s presumed that the cap will be going up slightly for next season.
-Parise doesn’t need to be re-signed until after next season, at which time Langenbrunners and Pandolfo’s and Peters combined $5.8m/year will be coming off the books to free up some space.
-You’re confusing salary with cap hit. Their yearly cap hit is their contract divided by the length of the contract. And you’re rounding up. And you’re including contracts you don’t know.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
So you would let Lang walk ? Justify that?
I rounded up….and know the cap figures with an approx….Thats an awful lot of age to use 21 mill on..hmm…
No one plays to have a good regular season…tell that to devils/sharks fans…
Well, he’ll be 37 to start the 11-12 season and his contract will be up. I never said let him walk, I said his contract will be coming off the books. He might choose to retire, he might be dealt to another team or he might re-sign for less money. Who knows? Point is, his $2.8m is coming off the books and we have no idea if the team will have picked up other players or if any of the kids will be ready to move up at this time next year.
The contracts are what they are. You can not like them but that doesn’t change the fact that they are there, they will remain there, and they don’t approach your estimate of 50%.
Everyone plays to have a good regular season. Everyone also plays to have a good post-season, but you can’t have that without the former.
You’re very fond of putting words in people’s mouths, which is only markedly as annoying as your inability to listen to what they’re actually saying.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
I listen to everything, I choose to disagree.
You said its coming off the books, which means either we have to resign or get a replacement…will that not cost the same amount?
Depends on who they sign. If they replace from within, then no, the replacement will not be making $2.8m but probably <=$1m.
Assuming he isn’t on the team for whichever reason, his most likely replacement would be someone already on the team bumped up to the first line and someone like Tedenby filling in their old spot.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
Most likely but not the same. So we are not that high on Tedenby? So he will be the next Langenbrunner….Their styles aren’t similar….What if Tedenby isn’t ready? Than what? Thats a lot of point to put on his shoulder or whoever fills the roster spot.
read the post
Emphasis mine:
Assuming he isn’t on the team for whichever reason, his most likely replacement would be someone already on the team bumped up to the first line and someone like Tedenby filling in their old spot.
I’m not saying it wont happen, but that a lot of pressure to put on him in such a short amount of time.
-The defense we have isn’t working…(no regular season does not count)
The contradictions continue – Martin’s only good because of the team’s systemic defense but the defense isn’t working.
Also, how in the world can anyone honestly say that the regular season doesn’t count? When was the last team who won the Stanley Cup that wasn’t a great regular season team? The regular season better shows a player’s actual performance; the playoffs are essentially a short-term gamble where a couple of slumping players at the wrong time can doom their team. Don’t believe me? Ask a Capitals fans about this year’s first round.
-Cupless
So the Devils should only go after players who have won Cups in the past? I guess re-signing Kovalchuk would be an awful idea because, hey, he doesn’t have a championship ring.
-With Martin, Rolston, Brodeur, Elias we have now used 50% of our cap (almost for literal elesias) for an aging group in Brodeur, Rolston and Elias…..We still need to lock in Parise….so now that those players get about 5.5-6….how do we sign him….We all know he is the best player NJ has right now. So now we throw what 7-8 Mill his way?
I don’t know. It’s not clear how much Martin will sign for. Parise isn’t being signed until next season anyway and with the number of contracts coming off the books in 2011, it’s unclear how much space will have to be cleared without knowing how the Devils will do this summer.
Even if Martin re-signs for 5.5 million/year cap hit, that’s a total of $21.7 million taken up. Not 50% unless the cap’s dropping real hard to $43.4 million. And that’s not happening short of an absolute apocalyptic drop in revenue across the league.
So now you have Martin signed…what do you spend to get a replacement for Mottau…yes I know you can go the unproven route, but thats not an upgrade that we know of yet…Are we developing Eckford to be a replacement for Martin? So now you can only spend so much to get an upgrade over Mottau…
It’s like I wrote a post about this possibility. Oh, yes, it was THIS VERY ONE.
As far as Eckford is concerned, I think he should actually play a NHL season before he’s seen as a replacement for any regular.
So is it really a defensive upgrade when we have the same player who got man handled vs. Philly….Outskated, Outmuscled…How many lingering players did Philly have before NJ finally realized it…Can we clear the fron of the net?!?!
I wonder if there’s a way you can measure that….on-ice impact perhaps? Perhaps using the numbers from Behind the Net?
So now Lets say we sign anyone other than Kovy on offense…because we cant sign him and Martin….we ended up trading Mottau a 4…for maybe a 3 at best…We traded Kovy a #1 for a #2-3……..How did we improve anything?
Mottau wasn’t traded. And the Kovalchuk deal sent a #2 in Oduya who was playing like a #5 this season, Niclas Bergfors who will likely be a second line winger, a prospect, and a pick.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The defense is weak, the team is strong…The strong team benefits the weak defense…dont see what your missing there?…Not a contradiction.
Noone plays the regular season to lose in round 1…..I’m sorry but to say otherwise is just dumb. Im sure Lou said Lets do great in the regular season….Im sure management was thrilled we had a good season….I bet those extra games would have helped put NJ in the black…. Sorry John…I don’t see a valid argument there.
No we shouldn’t sign cup winners, but we should retain those who dont win us cups…Pretty easy…Why were people happen with Langs?? Because he didn’t deliver when it mattered. Kovy showed more hunger than Langs did…SO yes I would choose him over Langs.
My cap was a round-up job, the point is still there that we have 21 locked up in aging group whose careers are on downward trend (on most)
I know what you wrote John…Thanks for that, in case I didn’t know. How does this improve our team?
Really John…show me who cleared the front of the net vs philly. Please do.
I know Mottau wasn’t traded, im not a moron. I am saying Martin is a #1 defender….Mottau #4….I would rather have a defense core with more depth then relying Mottau or some other cheapy on the back end.
HEY tmp1281
You keep bringing up how Martin does on the Devils. Notice that I written an entire post about this, comparing his total rank with the other Devils defensemen using the same numbers I’ve been using for the last week or so.
Notice that each Devil’s rank among all other NHL defensemen who’ve played 20 games and had a 15 TOI/60 are included. Notice that across both seasons that Martin stands out in numerous stats. You can continue claiming that Martin and all other defensemen are just the product of the system, but the stats suggest that Martin’s own talents may have something to do with him doing well in some/most – not all – of the on-ice impact stats I looked at.
I would also suggest opening your mind to the possibility that, hey, Martin’s a very good defenseman.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Never denied him being a defender…..Just not worth the money we would have to shell out….I believe he is good…but not worth the cap hit….or the the hype of best ufa..
Never denied him being a defender
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Show me where said Martin was awful…I have been consitant is saying Martin is good…Not the best UFA out there…but he makes are d better yes….I will still maintain that the money should be used to bolser our entire D not just keep what we have an pay a lil more.
I posted four links to comments in this post where you said that Martin’s talent is obscured by the Devils’ “system” or how everyone else on the team played well.
If you’re not willing to read or listen, then I’m not willing to continue discussing this with you.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 18, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I am listening and reading. Just because a team plays well, it does not mean Martin cannot be good…
I think justifying 5.5 million for a person who’s numbers benefit from the system he plays in is a bit ridiculous.
I like Paul Martin…but 5.5 I would let him go…Even over 5 is pushing it.
I do not see how keeping Martin and leaving White / Salvador to fend against Malkin and Semin will work out in the long run. The east has two teams who can score. We have White and Salvador to shut them down. I’m sorry it hasn’t worked the last 7 years…why would it work now?
The sad part is the last three years we have been beaten by lower seeds. Is that all on Paul Martin? No…
Does it mean NJ sucks? No..
Does it mean NJ needs to change some things yes. Ask any GM and they will say a way to spark the offense is through a mobile defense…White/Salvador/Mottau are not mobile.
Salvador was in STL and to them was worthy of Cam Jansen (a good trade) but what does that about them? He is no more than a low #2 #3 pairing at most… I would not want him trying to stock Ovi on a one on one.
By keeping him and white out there you run that risk…
Lets use another example…I was on the board then…but who thought coming into this season losing rupp, madden, gionta…getting Niedermayer, Pikkarainen and Bergfors…..would make us a Cup champion…..Obviously Lou didnt…Illka is gone, so is Bergfors. I doubt Nieds would be back too. So NJ seems to have changed their offense over the years…but not once have they really tried to improve the defense aside from the late role player…
If we have tried fixing the offense and it doesn’t work…does it mean we keep 80% of D and provide a small upgrade…such as Havelid..Salvador…Skoula (debatable)……
I look at how NJ played with out Martin, they won….
He comes back and not much changes….Sure some numbers improve but who is to say that a Hamhuis and Leopold wouldnt do the same thing…Sure it seems to be an downgrade if you just base them on your stats alone….but both play a style that would work in NJ and provide more depth on defense.
Does this mean Martin is bad? No….Is he a top line D-Man…Yes. Is he worth 5.5 Mill? eh. If I am Lou and I am paying someone 5.5 mill I am looking for someone that would be seriously missed when out of the lineup. Was the D overworked and strained with out Martin…Yup….But it still worked. NJ still got the Jennings with out him playing in 2/3 of the games. So now use the core that played those 2/3 games…upgrade via Hamhuis and Leopold/Seidenberg, etc….How do you NOT see that improvement.
Im not trying to be stubborn….I just do not see how NJ can compete with WSH/PIT/CHI/SJ/DET with Salvador..White..or Greene as a #2 pairing.
You raise a reasonable question, is Martin worth $5-6 million a year for 4-6 years? Im more inclined to agree with your position that signing Martin for that amount and that many years should not be considered lightly. Rash decisions made on contracts in the past have or are causing issues (e.g. Rolston, McGillis, Malakhov). Unfortunately though Martin is the best defenseman available on the free agent market, this conclusion is based on the data that has been presented. No defensemen you suggested (Hamhuis, Seidenberg, Leopold) can reasonably be considered an upgrade over Martin. You might disagree with the overreliance on stats but you haven’t offered an alternative beyond your opinion. Your opinion doesn’t overrule the data.
Now if the weakness is not having the #1 defenseman, which you think is one of the team’s major flaws (I’ll admit I skimmed a bit in terms of the comments so this might be wrong) how does losing the best defenseman available constitute a solution to that problem? This is the conundrum, signing Martin to a big contract carries risk but so does letting him walk, especially if the defense is already the team’s weakness.
I like Leopold
If not Martin . . . or even maybe with him.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
I found it most humorous...
when it was suggested that defense men are not game changers or can take over the game heres a small list of defense men who have and im only gonna use defense men still playing here it goes Lidstrom, Foote, Niedermayer, Rafalski , Gonchar that enough for you all of those have provided one or more of the following timely goals in big games, provided great leadership, intimidate opposing teams top forwards or simply shut down the other teams offense while on the ice.
Top it off ..
by saying most of the above mentioned like Martin will be available at least in theory i.e. contracts running out.

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