Should the Devils trade Ilya Kovalchuk's rights to another team?
by RolliePollieKovy on Jun 19, 2010 3:03 PM EDT
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Well we just heard that Nashville has traded Hamhuis's rights to the Flyers for Ryan Parent and a 7th round pick. I think that is a good trade for Paul Holmgren but that is not what I am talking about. This raises the question of a Kovalchuk's rights being traded. It would likely be a first round pick just because that team that would want him will sign him. Kovalchuk is a great player and is more valuable to a draft pick right now. Oh, and he is pretty young too. One team that comes to mind for me is the Boston Bruins.
The Bruins seem to be the perfect trade partner for perhaps a Kovalchuk trade. First of all, they have the 2nd pick in the draft this year which could mean Tyler Seguin, a possible 2nd pick as Taylor Hall seems to be going to the Oilers. Seguin would be a great fit for a Devils team. He would be the 2nd line center with Elias and a possible FA on the right wing if Lou feels like he needs a RW. We would potentially free up close to 8 million dollars if Kovalchuk got that much. That would add a hefty load of cap space to sign Martin, another FA defenseman, and maybe a RW. Or a Zach Parise long term contract extension. Kovalchuk will likely not be signed unless he takes a 7-7.5 million contract early in the off-season. Which he will probably not and test the market. In my mind, if you can't sign Kovalchuk atleast get something back for him that is significant like a draft pick. But will Boston take that deal?
I had heard the Bruins were involved in the Kovalchuk sweepstakes and didn't work out a deal. Boston now has $4,302,857 in cap space with contracts like Recchi, Satan, and Stuart to name a few of contracts being terminated. There has been some talk of Blake Wheeler being traded to the Oilers and that pick for the 1st pick. But if a Kovalchuk, and NJ's second round pick for Boston's 1st round pick and maybe Blake Wheeler to free up some cap I don't know how Boston doesn't accept that. They get a potential 50 goal scorer and an early 2nd round pick in a draft that is very deep. New Jersey gets what they wanted and get Seguin and Wheeler. Who is a RW and would fit right in with a possible Elias-Seguin-Wheeler line. Wheeler's contract is up this year and is a RFA. I don't know how that works of a RFA traded. But it would keep the Devils from signing a 2nd line center that would probably take 3-4 million or 5 million depending on what center they could sign. Wheeler would be an excellent find for Lou as he picked up 38 points last year with a scoring slumping Bruins team and Blake is only 23 years old. Another scenario of that trade would maybe a Volchenkov signing. It would certainly be possible as the Devils have $15,940,000 in cap room to sign Martin, Clarkson, and other contracts. The Devils can certainly pick up Anton's 5 million dollar contract, if that is what he wants. That would be another piece to the Devils puzzle for a long Stanley Cup run with John MacLean.
I think this is definently possible but it does have some doubts as the Devils don't have a first round pick, sadly. If this exact deal worked out with Lou and Peter Chiarelli making it happen, it would maybe put the Devils "over the top." Just look at the possble line combo's that Devils would have if this deal worked...
Parise- Zajac- Langenbrunner
Elias- Seguin- Wheeler
Rolston- UFA- Clarkson
Leblond- Pelley- Zharkov
Defense:
Martin- Salvador
Volchenkov- Greene
White- Salmela/ Mottau/ Fraser
It would be a great lineup for a rookie coach of John MacLean to work with. But will it happen or is it possible? Please state your opinion below and I will look forward to reading it. Thanks for reading!
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The Bruins also have their own first round pick, the 15th, and would most likely trade that one if they were going to trade one.
Also, your lines are short a Lithuanian.
If anyone could make it work, I’d put it in Lou’s hands… and if it came to be I’d be feeling pretty optimistic… but I just don’t see Boston trading away Toronto’s pick. In essence that would be trading Kessel for the possibility of signing Kovalchuk, when financial concerns were why they traded Kessel to begin with. Besides, if everyone thought he didn’t fit in on the Devils, how’s he going to fit under Julien?
The more likely scenario is they draft whichever of Seguin or Hall that the Oils don’t take and plug him in on an entry level contract and have more wiggle room to try and keep Wheeler.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain (?)
I don’t see how the bruins have the cap space to sign Kovalchuk. According to capgeek:
TEAM PAYROLL BONUSES CAP SPACE TOT $/OPENING
Boston Bruins " $54,162,143 $1,665,000 4302857.14286$4,302,857 18 $860,571
So if they traded a draft pick away to negotiate for less than 2 weeks, I think it’d be equivalent to just giving the draft pick away.
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Thats what I just commented on the Arnott trade. ha ha ha
"Goaltending is a normal job, sure. How would you like it in your job if every time you made a small mistake, a red light went on over your desk and 15,000 people stood up and yelled at you." - Jacques Plante
by RolliePollieKovy on Jun 19, 2010 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
We already made one move with Nashville no reason we couldn’t also nab Hamhuis away. And also id try to negotiate something with Colorado. They got alot of good players we could have the rights to. If we gonna lose Kovy might as well get a good return or at least the chance of a good return. Maybe we could get say Jones or Galiardi for the rights to Kovy.
Not anymore. Philadelphia just dumped their #6/#7 defensemen to get the first crack at negotiating with him. Granted, if they’re going to trade Jeff Carter away, then they’d have the money to do it…
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by John Fischer on Jun 19, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
From a 3rd party point of view
This raises the question of a Kovalchuk’s rights being traded. It would likely be a first round pick just because that team that would want him will sign him.
This would seem unlikely.
One thing about Kovy is that, he seems to be choosy about where he wants to play – not just the team that offers him the most salary (i.e. turning down that rediculous contract from Atlanta). I’d suspect that other GMs realize that, and unless they knew for SURE Kovy would sign under their terms, the return for his rights would be nowhere near a 1st round pick.
Not saying his rights have NO value, but I think that a 1st round pick is a huge reach.
Sons of '67: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Maybe a late 1st round pick.
"Goaltending is a normal job, sure. How would you like it in your job if every time you made a small mistake, a red light went on over your desk and 15,000 people stood up and yelled at you." - Jacques Plante
by RolliePollieKovy on Jun 19, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions
From everything that is out there on the rumour mill, it seems Ilya Kovalchuk and his agent are headed to July 1st so they can see all the offers come in. Until that changes, his neogitation rights have zero practical value, because he isn’t going to sign before then.
Moreover, I’m not seeing how getting the first rights to negotiate with Kovalchuk would be a first round pick. If anything, since Kovalchuk is in the driver’s seat on any final decisions, teams would be dumb to give up something that substantial with the possibility that Kovalchuk tells said team “no.”
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by John Fischer on Jun 20, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree – it seems pretty clear that Kovy is going to test the market on July 1st. I don’t think Kovy’s rights are worth much. The Flyers probably made the trade for Hamhuis with the belief that they would be able to sign him. Also, even though Ryan Parent looked like a promising prospect at D when he was in Nashville, his time with the Flyers was less impressive. He was in and out of the lineup during the playoffs. I think it’s clear the Flyers didn’t see Parent in their plans for the future and so, from their point of view, they didn’t give up much to acquire Hamhuis’ rights.
The best deal for Kovy’s rights that I would hope for would be a highly conditional draft pick – something like a 1st rounder if Kovy signs before July 1, a 2nd rounder if he eventually signs with the team we trade him to after July 1, and a 3rd rounder if he signs with a completely different team.
You need to consider Arnott now
Short term, Arnott is going to help. Long term, I believe a lot of scouts that say Seguin is going to be as good as Taylor Hall. I think both of them have talent, I think it truly comes down to who gets presented with the better supporting cast and better situation. Both are “winners,” they have won junior championships with Canada (I believe, I know they both were on the 2009-10 team that lost to the USA).
I like the deal if it means rights to Kovalchuk for the 2nd pick, but I don’t see Kovalchuk signing any kind of deal before July 1st. He wants to know his options. If LA had the 2nd pick, now that would make it a better option, because LA is probably the best suitor for Kovy, maybe even the Islanders (get their 1st rounder??).
Now if Edmonton picks Seguin, then we could have Hall?! Hall and Henrique would be back together, that would be great, but that’s looking ahead, we also have the Josefson-Tedenby duo that I’m looking forward to.
Yankees in baseball, Giants in football and Devils in hockey. It's that simple. I have no off-season.
Ilya Kovalchuk is a great player, but I think some people need to re-think this “We can trade him for a X” stuff.
If it’s apparent that Kovalchuk isn’t going to sign a deal, why would another team give up an asset just to talk to him a week or two earlier? Moreover, even if a team does give up an asset, why would they make it so valuable? It’s not like the Devils will have any leverage to demand something significant in return since Kovalchuk can just talk to said team (or any team) on July 1.
I’m this close to just responding to all of that with Unicorn demands.
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by John Fischer on Jun 21, 2010 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
John, you have a better chance of getting that unicorn than the Devils do getting anything for Kovalchuk’s rights prior to 7/1.
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Eklund says the Devils will trade his rights so I guess Lou is going to do it. ha ha (sarcasm)
Piece by piece we are slowly turning into the 2000 Devils team, anyone up for the A-Line: The Sequel?
by RolliePollieKovy on Jun 21, 2010 4:30 PM EDT reply actions
Are you some of you guy living in a fantasy world?
What GM in their right mind would trade the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft for the right to Kovalchuk for less than one week?
The Devils would be way lucky if they got a 2nd round pick back for trading his rights but Hall!? Seguin!? Ha!
Seeing what Hamhuis was worth (Parent was a 1st Rd pick) to Philly as an RFA makes me think Kovy is worth something. I understand that it seems as though he is very likely to test the market and so of course he will not fetch the 2nd Overall or a 1st Rd pick at all. But hopefully he can be traded for something, or a Defensive center! How about Jarret Stoll!
Whoa, nevermind, just looked him up and see that he makes $3.6M, who gave him that contract? How about rights to Frolov?
Yeah Parent was a first round pick. So? Has he developed into a top 4 D-man? No. Where someone was drafted is moot after they’ve played in the league for a few seasons.
I cant quite agree with that, think Carey Price. He was drafted not only 1st Rd, but Top 5. You dont think it matters to Montreal where he was drafted in the decision to trade Halak and keep Price? He certainly hasnt shown he’s a number 1 Goalie.
Besides, who is to say Parent will not develop into a Top 4 Defenseman? He’s only 23, and has maybe 100 games in the NHL. AND, he was Nashville’s 1st Rd pick. I think all of that matters in that trade scenario.
Uh no..
Price has at points played like a top flight goalie. He’s also played like a kid his age at other times, which would leave you to believe he’s not yet stabilized and able to play at his full potential, which could be of an All-Star Goalie.
Parent, while granted he’s only 23, hasn’t give any indication in his play that he’s going to develop into anything more than a bottom pairing defensemen.
Montreal didn’t trade Halak because they drafted Price with the 5th pick. They traded him because for whatever reason they felt he had a higher ceiling from everything he displayed in his play, NOT his draft number.
You really think Price has shown to be a better goaltender than Jaroslav Halak? Well, if they do, Montreal certainly has a strange way of showing it, playing Halak thru the Playoffs. I think Price’s draft number has plenty to do with why they traded Halak. Imagine if they traded their 5th Overall pick (Price) and then he became the better goalie down the road.
Either way, all I was saying was that Philly had to give up an asset to get Hamhuis’ rights, without knowing if they will be able to sign him.
There’s zero reason to believe Halak > Price or Price > Halak at the moment.
What you can say is Price is younger and if they’re roughly equal now then Price has more time to grow and hence higher upside.
It’s been some time since Price was drafted. It’s not like they traded John Tavares (which would lead to immense negative backlash). No one cares where Price was drafted anymore, except the statisticians that advise against using a top-5 pick on a goalie.
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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it matters that Nashville drafted him and that he is a known quantity to their team, but Ryan Parent is NOT equivalent value to a first-round draft pick. If you compare the Hamhuis trade to the Bouwmeester trade last year, the Flames and Panthers essentially traded the rights to Bouwmeester for a 2nd rounder plus the rights to Leopold (a bottom-pairing defender). Bouwmeester was (and could still be, depending on who you ask) viewed as a top-2 Dman. Hamhuis, on the other hand, is considered a second-pairing defender. I think Hamhuis’ appropriate value in terms of a draft pick would have been a third-rounder. A fourth-rounder is probably not enough value for him, but a second-rounder is out of the question given that is the return for a top-pairing Dman. Basically, Ryan Parent’s value is considered equivalent to a third-round pick, which I think is fair for a bottom-pairing guy. Who cares that he was drafted in the first round? GMs now know way more about him as a player than they did during the draft.
As for Price vs. Halak, if Gauthier made that trade because he’s too stubborn to admit that Montreal made a mistake by using their top 5 pick on Price, he should be fired. A GM needs to do what’s best for his team going forward. In the analysis done by Montreal’s management, they decided that they had a multitude of reasons to choose Price over Halak. Price has yet to reach his potential. Halak could garner a better return in a trade. Halak would come with a bigger cap hit over the next 3 yrs, at least. Maybe they truly believe that Halak will be a one-hit wonder. This league isn’t about how high you were drafted, it’s about what-have-you-done-for-me-lately and what-can-you-do-in-the-future.
Logic
Logically, I can agree with you guys, but the pressures are different in Montreal, especially when it comes to their goalies. My take is that Price and Halak were seen evenly by Montreal management, with Halak clearly squeaking Price out (at least at the present) because he was the starter in the Playoffs. I cannot imagine, as a GM, thinking Goalie A is the better goalie, but then play Goalie B thruout the Playoffs.
I agree, now surely Halak has better trade value than Price. And Halak may cost more in the next 3 years, although he made $.8M versus Price’s $2.2M this past year.
Being a 1st Rd pick does matter in this League. I truly believe, because those players tend to have the most ‘talent’, they are given more chances to succeed (if not by the team that drafted them, then by others). Think Patrik Stefan, complete bust going 1st Overall, but still playing.
Halak will probably earn a new contract of around 4 mil per season, Price will probably stay put somewhere near his current price. I personally believe that Price doesn’t have the mental fortitude to deal with being a Canadiens goalie and that Montreal will regret this choice. But I can see how it’s justifiable and I don’t think it was a decision made on the basis of how high Price was drafted.
by dr(d)evil on Jun 22, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you, dr(d)evil, are 100% spot on with this analysis.
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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions
It is far to say that Montreal had to trade one guy or the other, because otherwise you’d have a goaltending controversy that could tear the team apart very easily. Past that, I have to disagree with some of the above sentiments.
I believe Jaroslav Halak was traded because he could fetch more in return, especially coming off the Montreal playoff run. Once the glow fades, I think we’ll see that the two goalies are more similar than St. Louis is going to be happy with. Halak was not the undisputed #1 during parts of the regular season (that may be media-driven as much as anything else), and he got lit up several times in the playoffs. I also think Halak was the guy traded because there are people in Montreal management who question if he’ll be able to replicate his heroics.
If I were Montreal’s GM, I think I would have done the same thing. Halak may be the better goalie — we’ve got a few years to find that out. He might also have had a serendipitous run at the right time, inflated his value, and bamboozle a team (in this case, St. Louis) into overpaying for him.
Montreal chose to cash Halak in now for a couple of prospects they think can help their team. History may say they got fleeced in the deal. History may also say they sold high.
Because it’s already been published (and if you want to make me search for it, I will) that Kovy WILL test the market. Even if that’s a smoke screen by the Devils who still hope to sign him before 7/1, if you’re another GM, do you trade anything for someone you’ve got a very slim chance of signing beforehand?
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maybe?
didnt florida do that with boumester? why cant the devils do it with kovy? just askin
FLA got a pending UFA in Leopold plus a 2nd rounder, I believe. That’s the highest return for a pending UFA to date.
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by red army line on Jun 22, 2010 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions
also, bouwmeester grew up in alberta and it was thought that he strongly wanted to return for alberta. calgary knew their chances of signing him were strong and made the trade because they didn’t want to take any chances on July 1 that some other team might blow him away with a bigger offer.
by dr(d)evil on Jun 22, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’ve got to look at it from a GM’s perspective. Aside from the fact that the potential pool of suitors with the right combination of need and salary cap space is pretty small, if you were one of those handful of GM’s, would you give up prospects and/or picks and/or a player for ~8 days of negotiating rights to a player who’s seemingly determined to see what the best deal he can get is and has a $14m offer from the KHL sitting on the back burner?
Unless you had some inside track to thinking you could get him signed (and I don’t know if Lou is allowing other teams to contact Kovalchuk prior to July 1st… I know I wouldn’t), there’s no reason to give up anything when you could just wait about a week until he’s on the market.
This far along in things, if the Devils get anything at all for his rights it would be a minor miracle.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
and I don’t know if Lou is allowing other teams to contact Kovalchuk prior to July 1st… I know I wouldn’t
On second thought, I totally would, as it would increase the chances of another team trading for his rights… though it would be essentially giving up on re-signing him.
Regardless, the likelihood seems rahter slim.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
You caught just what I was going to see in reference to your previous comment. I agree, its unlikely we get anything for his rights. But, if there are a handful of teams interested and able to retain his services thru his Cap hit and all of that, wouldn’t you want the upper hand on the most valuable UFA out there? He is arguably the most valuable UFA the League has ever seen. He’s only 27, been in the League for a decade, has the most goals scored in the League since he came in, and he was a Franchise player in Atlanta (even though they never did things right surrounding him).
If I am a GM who has zeroed in on him, that I want Kovy more than anything, I happily give up at least a pick to procure the chance to sign him.
You see things like Brad Staubitz, who is a pending FA, get traded to Minnesota for a 5th Rd pick and it makes you think, was he really a coveted player? Were the Sharks going to sign him at all? Was there any other team in the League that would have jumped on him come July 1? I would think the answer would be NO on all accounts.
So it gives me hope, although I am realistic enough to not expect a return at all.
Though the situation seems to be unique in that he already has a well-publicized and very large contract offer from the KHL.
I guess I just think that if a team were going to give something up for his trading rights, it would have happened already. A week doesn’t seem like enough time to hammer out the details… though if they’ve been meeting behind curtains with Lou’s permission, I guess it could happen at any time prior to 12:00AM, July 1st.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
If I were a GM and I wanted Kovy, I would definitely try to get the negotiating rights to him to at least show him how serious I am and how much he is wanted by my organization. However, knowing that the chances of him signing before July 1 is slim, I wouldn’t want to give up too much.
I mentioned this in a comment above, but if I were Lou, I would really make a push for a conditional draft pick wherein the return depends on what happens. I would structure it so that if Kovy signs before July 1st, the Devils get a 1st round draft pick. If he signs with the team we traded him to, the Devils get a 2nd round pick. If he signs with another team completely, then the Devils get a 4th round pick. I think this is a fair trade for the other team and a good return for the Devils given the situation.
The more I think about it, I’m not sure every GM in the league expects Kovy to go to July 1st. We look at how he turned down Atlanta’s mega-offer, but that doesn’t make us think he wants even more money than that – we think he wants to play for a winning team and it didn’t really matter how much money Atlanta threw at him. Similarly, I think people see that the Devils haven’t signed Kovy yet but they may not necessarily think it’s because he is definitely going to hit the market on July 1st. They may think “Maybe he doesn’t like the Devils system”, or “Maybe the Devils aren’t offering enough money with their cap situation”, or “Maybe Kovy wants to be captain of his new team”. There might be a GM out there that thinks he can offer the right situation for Kovy that would allow the team to sign him before he hits the market.
I don’t think one week is too short to hammer out the details of a contract. I think the sides could come to an agreement within a matter of hours. Things happen very quickly in free agency – typically it takes about 12 – 15 hours (sometime in the early afternoon on July 1st) for the big domino to fall and then the rest of the top free agents are signed within 12 hrs of that. By July 2nd, there are slim pickings.
I meant to say that if he signs with the team we traded him to AFTER July 1st, the Devils get a 2nd round pick.
Yes, I was going to ask dr(d)evil, if the team that trades for him signs before July 1st, we get a 2nd? Or we get a 2nd if he signs with them after July 1st?
The idea would be if the team that trades for him signs him before July 1st, then he will never have hit the free agent market and the trade will have been a complete success. Trading a first-round pick for Kovalchuk would be good value, and the Devils will have gotten good value for a player they weren’t able to sign.
If the team that trades for him signs him after July 1st, then you can say that making that trade for him may have influenced his decision and made him feel very wanted by his new club. That is also worth something, and for a player of Kovalchuk’s caliber I think it’s worth a 2nd rounder. The team that trades for him can’t be unhappy with that. They gave up a 2nd rounder for Kovalchuk and had to sweat it out a bit on July 1st but it was all worth it in the end.
If the team that trades for him doesn’t end up with him at all, they will have only given up a 4th round pick for the opportunity to have exclusive negotiating rights with him – and I think any team can live with that.
and I don’t know if Lou is allowing other teams to contact Kovalchuk prior to July 1st…
I don’t think Lou can allow other teams to talk to him. Other NHL teams aren’t allowed to, as they are under contract with their current teams until the end of June 30. As far as I know, that would be straight up tampering and the Devils would reap massive rewards for it. Just as Blues fans.
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by John Fischer on Jun 22, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That is the letter of the law, yes. But I was watching NHL Live the other day and they had Jay Feaster on (former Tampa GM). He had said that he has never done that, but he knows that amongst his fellow GM’s, there have been ‘agents of players on one team talk about another of their players’ on another team, and bring that information to GM’s.’ Surely there are ways around it, but Im sure in this case, and with Lou Lamoriello in dealing with Ilya Kovalchuk, it wouldnt be happening.
Yeah…Hossa signed a complex deal only a bit after free agency opened last year. I’m fairly sure there was something going on there prior to noon July 1.
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by red army line on Jun 23, 2010 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions
i sayyy screw that and lets trade kovalchuk’s rights and a prospect and a 2012 1st or 2nd round pick to LA for Doughty and Kopitar…Doughty=up and coming superstar with strong offensive skills and his already great defensive skills would get better on a devils team. kopitar would be an excellent 2nd line center and have arnott on the third line center to have a strong centers as well as wingers..doughty is like 5x better than kaberle and like 11 years younger so he would much more useful than kaberle…yes the deal does sounds a little weird but i would take that deal any day personally
I would give L.A. the Devils’ next four 1st round draft picks for Doughty and Kopitar. And then they would laugh in my face and tell me to keep dreaming.
by dr(d)evil on Jun 22, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If anyone it would probably be Scott Parse. Simmonds if were lucky and can guarrantee Kovy signing there.
Piece by piece we are slowly turning into the 2000 Devils team, anyone up for the A-Line: The Sequel?
by RolliePollieKovy on Jun 22, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions
I think Jones would be a liable one to give up.
Piece by piece we are slowly turning into the 2000 Devils team, anyone up for the A-Line: The Sequel?
by RolliePollieKovy on Jun 22, 2010 5:14 PM EDT reply actions
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- Frattin scores twice, including winner as Marlies defeat Barons 5-3 in Game 3
- Buffalo Sabres give defenceman Alexander Sulzer a one-year deal to dodge free agency
- Sabres sign defenseman Sulzer for one year
- Devils make lineup change for Game 4 vs. Rangers; Jacob Jacobson in, Petr Sykora out
- Josefson replaces Sykora in Devils' lineup Monday
