Are the Devils Rebuilding?
by elesias on Jul 14, 2010 3:53 PM EDT
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I know, it's a dirty word around these parts, but the question was raised in another post and it got us wondering, what exactly does it mean to be rebuilding?
My best attempt to define it was to say it involved a turnover in personnel, be it on the ice or off; a change or otherwise perceivable tweak in philosophy, be it on ice or off; an infusion of youth; likely slow, but steady progress toward the end goal; and a willingness to accept the inevitable growing pains.
For the most part, just about all of those points could be argued either way for the Devils.
There has been significant turnover in personnel this off-season alone, both on and off the ice.
The selection of John MacLean as a coach and hiring of Adam Oates as the offensive/PP/face-off guru as well as Lou's pursuit of Kovalchuk all signal that the front office recognizes the team needs some help offensively and give the appearance at least that the team is making a philosophical shift to be a little more offensively oriented. Also, the signing of Hedberg for a very unDevils-like backup goaltender contract strongly suggests that Marty really will be playing fewer games this year.
Lou himself is quoted as saying, "I would be disappointed if out of this group here [the 43 prospects at camp] if two or three weren’t on our starting roster." Two or three could be, for a Devils team that last year filled out their roster with veterans like Rob Niedermayer and Dean McAmmond, considered an infusion of youth.
Slow and steady progress remains to be seen as I'm sure any progress (i.e. getting past the first round in the playoffs) would be seen as a success, but only a starting point.
Where it falls down is the "willingness to accept the growing pains." Losing is not an acceptable outcome for the organization or its fans who have come to take a yearly trip to the playoffs for granted. Lou has made it pretty clear over the past few years that he is concerned with winning now rather than later, though like every good GM he's still concerned with the later.
So what is the exact definition of a rebuilding period? Where is the line of demarcation between a team that is rebuilding and a team that is just making adjustments? Is it a tangible matter like getting a new GM like the Lightning did this summer, or is it something more abstract? I don't think anyone would argue that the Islanders aren't a good example of a team that is rebuilding, but why would we unanimously agree on the Islanders but not the Devils? Does rebuilding have to coincide with a period of not being competitive?
I put it to you, good reader: what to you defines a rebuilding period, and are the Devils currently in one?
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To me, rebuilding means dumping the core of your team and starting essentially from scratch, building from a new core.
In my opinion, a sign of the Devils rebuilding would be to dump the core vets like Elias, White, Langs, and Brodeur. This would urge the Devils to redevelop and reshape their team from what one would suspect of a core group of Parise and Zajac. New goalie, new defense group, new forwards. The predominant group of replacements would be youngsters with the signing of a few new vets to take the team in a fresh direction.
What I see from the Devils is more of a retooling. Remove or lose a few pieces here and there and replace them with somebody new (lose Martin, perhaps Mottau, sign Tallinder and Volchenkov; remove Danis, sign Hedberg; lose RNeids, promote Josefson maybe(?)).
Our core remains the same. Parise. Zajac. Elias. Marty. Langs. White. If anything we’ve deepened our core by signing the A-Train. Should Kovy sign with us long-term, that merely deepens our core further.
Marty4Prez’s post right above me says roughly 90% of what I was about to type out, so there’s no particular reason for me to finish typing my comments when I can just say “me too!”
Teams early in a rebuilding process generally don’t dip into the UFA market, and certainly not to the level of a Volchenkov or Tallinder deal. Most UFA signings you see from those clubs are of the one-year variety (sometimes two) to bring in a veteran or two to fill a specific role that the “kids” might not be ready for (yet).
That being said, a “rebuild” for the Devils at this point could very easily include trading Zajac and/or Parise. Not only could each one fetch you a fair amount in return, but you might be able to use them to unload some of your other problem contracts. A dramatic re-build would probably be a 3-5 year project, anyhow. If I were Lou and doing that, I’d allow Zach and Travis the right to opine if they’d like to stick around for it as part of the foundation, or if they’d prefer a fresh start elsewhere. Obviously, a “re-build” would be much further along with such pieces, but if you don’t anticipate your club being competitive for a few years, trading them would make some sense (especially Zajac, who might depart as a UFA before you were done).
I’m not saying I would go through such a dramatic re-build right now. I don’t even know that the Devils can attempt it at this point — certainly not now that they’ve spent good money on July 1st. Just that some of the assumptions about what it would entail are not necessarily true.
So essentially, so long as the team has an evolving core it’s never rebuilding; it’s retooling.
I can get behind that, but it begs the question: what defines a core? Hypothetically speaking, if Elias, White, Langenbrunner and Brodeur have all retired or otherwise moved on in, say three years, and none of the kids like Josefson and Tedenby have worked out like we’d wanted, would Parise and Zajac alone be considered a core? Can one person be a core? Does one need positional talent in all three phases of the game (i.e. offense, defense and in goal) to build around, or is it a core so long as it is identified and built around?
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
Core 7
Im not really a fan of Pierre McGuire for the most part, but there is no denying he is an intelligent man with coaching experience and a hockey mind. He opined during the Playoffs that Chicago would be fine down the road because they would still have their Core 7,
As he defined it, the Core 7 for every team is:
1. A goal-scoring power forward
2, 3. Two strong centers
4. A puck-moving, PP quarterbacking defensemen
5. A shutdown guy
6. A #1 goaltender
7. A specialist (i.e. a PP sniper or a PK specialist)
So right now, as I see it, we do not have a True Core 7, as Numbers 3 and 4 are question marks for the Devils. Perhaps Josefson will be that guy in a season or two, and perhaps Greene as early as this season. But we do not have Chicago’s components as we stand now.
"What in tarnation's goin' on 'round here?!?" - Yosemite Sam in reference to Ilya Kovalchuk not yet signing
people actually listens to pierre, people are so apoplectic, it will be a magical play in lou’s part if we win the cup this year, and we have a monster named a-train this year
in pierre we trust…with words
PS3: J-CAMPS
ok?
and niemi is a #1 goaltender? hahahahaha
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 15, 2010 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I dont think he is a number 1 goalie either, but he did win the Stanley Cup regardless. Im sure having the other 6 components so strongly tied up, Number 7 being not as strong still gets the job done.
I still agree with his model and that a Core 7 will leave you as a top contender each and every season.
"What in tarnation's goin' on 'round here?!?" - Yosemite Sam in reference to Ilya Kovalchuk not yet signing
It’s an interesting way to look at things… and it’s certainly not a bad template to build a team around… but how many teams out there can actually say they have all 7 pieces?
Off the top of my head every team I can think of is missing at least one piece, though a lot of it depends on how one interprets things (i.e. what defines a “strong” Center?), and I see no reason a successful goalie tandem couldn’t be acceptable for #6.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
Agreed, and I think that’s the point, that very few teams have all 7 in place, hence there are very few actual Contenders in the League as it stands now.
I wonder what you would consider a “successful goalie tandem.”
But a team like SJ, or perhaps Vancouver may fit the model, while if you move Crosby around, Pittsburgh may have when they won. Let’s see
SJ
1 – Marleau 2 – Thornton 3 – Pavelski 4 – Boyle 5 – Blake before retirement, maybe Murray now 6 – with Nabokov gone, Niittymaki hurts this group 7 – Clowe/Setoguchi
VAN
1 – Burrows 2 – H Sedin 3 – Kesler 4 – Edler is a stretch 5 – Ballard/Hamhuis or maybe Bieksa, weak here too 6 – Luongo 7 – D Sedin
PIT (’09)
1 – Crosby 2 – Malkin 3 – Staal 4 – Gonchar 5 – Scuderi 6 – Fleury 7 – Tough one, Talbot, Fedotenko?
"What in tarnation's goin' on 'round here?!?" - Yosemite Sam in reference to Ilya Kovalchuk not yet signing
There does seem to be a little bit of potential for overlap between 4 and 7. For instance, the ’09 Pens could probably have Gonchar as their #7 also.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
i wouldnt count 2 centers as two different numbers.
by KingHellfire on Jul 15, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s his list, he can count them however he wants :P
Really though, he’s saying the team’s core should consist of 7 players, two of which are top line Centers… calling it a “Core 7” with two spots for Centers or a “Core 6” with one spot for two Centers is being a bit nitpicky…
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
From the last 17 years of following the Devils, and of course our beloved Lou, it seems to me that the team is constantly building and building, staying at the top level in this league every single season (Bar ’96 i guess).
There is always a core and the rest of the jigsaw must fit with a team chemistry.
A touch of luck, and we’ll win the cup.
Ireland? An Ice Hockey Team?
You'd better believe it...
I cannot classify this as rebuilding. You cannot rebuild when your top two lines remain unchanged and 70% of the team is the same as the last two years. What I see is an investment in the future. Some may call it a retooling, but again I draw your attention to the above argument regarding player personnel.
As an investment in the future, what we are doing is not reaching for aging veterans via free agency. We have all seen the results from such signings as Rolston, Malakhov, Mogilny, etc etc etc. We are using our current talent base (albeit with two free agency tweaks on defense) and providing space that can be filled with an interchangeable group of young players. It is my opinion that there are some real players about to come up. Growing pains aside, a few of these guys are going to be the real deal who make a significant contribution to the success of this team.
Now, when Marty retires, if the team goes into a tailspin and we sell off assets like Parise and Zajac to secure the rights of prospective stars or the goaltender of the future, THAT will be a rebuilding. Lets hope that doesn’t ever happen and the devils continue this trend of regular season success, solid scouting, good drafts, and perhaps some stability at the head coaching position. (anyone who thinks marty wont takeover the goalie coaching job from Chris Terreri if he wants it is kidding themselves).
Just to state the obvious. In Lou I very much do trust
I’m just playing Devils advocate here, but the top two lines are not the same as they were. Really, they weren’t even static last year, as it saw all sorts of different permutations involving Elias, Langenbrunner, Zubrus, Zharkov, Kovalchuk, Clarkson and Rolston.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
RE something
Main Entry: re·build
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)rē-ˈbild\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): re·built \-ˈbilt\; re·build·ing
Date: 1537
transitive verb
1 a : to make extensive repairs to : reconstruct b : to restore to a previous state
2 : to make extensive changes in : remodel
By the good book of Merriam-Webster I would have to qualify the current situation as minor rebuilding…although perhaps restoration may be a better term?
Perhaps. Restoration does have a nice ring to it.
All the same, an argument could be made that all of the changes thus far are extensive… at least compared to recent years.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
Keeping it simple...
I don’t think the Devils will be in rebiulding mode until Marty retires. At that point they will have to decide who the next player to build around will be whether the player is on the team now or not. Right now the Devils know Marty is winding down and it is my opinion that the infusion of youth is designed to begin taking the pressure off his shoulders. Right now I would call it reloading or restoring but rebuilding?…No not yet.
Fan's Creed: (Play well+Win=Praise) (Play Well+Lose=Praise) (Play Lousy+Win=Criticism) (Play lousy+Lose & Bandwagon Jumpers=Off with thier heads!)
by LoNJDTechnology on Jul 14, 2010 5:40 PM EDT reply actions
I like Restoring or Restoration
as well, I think in order to rebuild, you cannot make moves to acquire a 37-year-old backup goaltender, and you dont make a trade for a 35-year-old Number 2 Center and in the process give up a 2nd Rd pick and a viable prospect.
However, I do see that we will need to upgrade certain positions in the near future in order to avoid a Rebuilding, most noticeably in net. Any ideas on how long Marty will remain an top goaltender? We’ve all been hearing it for years that when Marty retires, the Devils are sunk. I do not believe that, but without a viable replacement, does that mean the team goes about rebuilding, knowing that the possibility of the Stanley Cup is a little farther from reality?
"What in tarnation's goin' on 'round here?!?" - Yosemite Sam in reference to Ilya Kovalchuk not yet signing
Marty
While Marty is one of the best goaltenders of all time, if not the best, I don’t think when he retires it means we’re “sunk”. In the 08-09 season Marty played 31 games and we still manages 51 wins. The Blackhawks and Flyers have shown that an elite goalie is not vital to winning a Cup. I think that when Marty retires we can take the 5.2m in improve the defense in front of the goalie and sign one of our prospect goalies; that is unless we can sign or trade for another elite goalie.
Post Marty Syndrome
Personally…when Brodeur retires…I plan to stop watching hockey entirely (aside from footage of games in which he has played). I mean really…what is the point to go on without him?
I think a team rebuilding would have the majority of it’s players be young guys. Like 1-3 years in the NHL. Right now our majority is veterans with a dash of youngins.
If the Devils did rebuild it would have to be like what Colorado did last year. They had a ton of rookies/young players and still managed to be a solid team and make the playoffs. I couldn’t image the outrage if the Devils ever missed the playoffs.
"Don't worry about my cap" -Lou Lamoriello
In a word...
No. The Devils haven’t been rebuilding for as long as I can remember because good organizations don’t need to rebuild. It’s called “rebuilding or retooling on the fly.” You draft well and make smart personnel decisions so that you just transition from player to player like when someone leaves via FA or retires.
The Wings haven’t been rebuilding in forever. The Patriots haven’t had to do it in football. The Braves went a long time in baseball without doing it. Eventually every team will run out of luck and their draft picks won’t work out the way they hoped. That’s when you start losing. Then you have to trade off your veterans for MORE picks and prospects and eventually you work your way back into it. Or not like you’re seeing with the teams that have been terrible for years and years on end lol.
The Devs are a long way from having to rebuild. Even when Marty retires they won’t have to. The team will be strong enough to still be competitive and they can just sign a goalie for 3-4M to step in if Frazee doesn’t step up. We dominated with Clemmensen in there so although we all love Marty (I’ve had a poster of him on my wall for the last 14 years lol) it won’t ruin our team when he steps down.
by PariseLikeSundayMornin on Jul 15, 2010 12:13 AM EDT reply actions
“Rebuilding” is a load of crap used to justify the sucking that comes when you lose your best guys. To injury, to retire, whatever. It’s a capitulation. You give up, trade the rest of your guys who still have value for draft picks and/or prospects, and finish at the bottom for better draft position. You basically decide that you are going to suck for a few years so you can be good at some point in the future. That usually, but not always, depends on the acquisition of a cornerstone, through #1 draft pick, UFA, trade; be it an anchor in goal, a prolific scorer, or a beast of a defenseman. If you make it to that point, you attempt to switch management philosophy to that of “Maintenance.”
And that’s where Lou excels. We’ve all read the story about his first draft as GM of the Devils. He recognized that the team was in that rebuilding stage, and did what he had to do to screw the rangers and get a hold of the veteran he wanted to mentor his young players. A few years later, Marty is drafted, claims the goal as his, and the rebuild was complete. Since then, he’s created a Devils system that takes players and makes them almost plug-and-play parts of the system. There’s no reason for a complete rebuild when your system has interchangable parts. Replacements are in development now for the guys the big club is going to lose in the next couple years, if not already on the NHL squad getting real NHL icetime. Add a guy or two each season on a 1 or 2 year deal to fill in the holes as development continues, and you maintain that level of competition.
Now, i think this year is different. I believe that the guys we have in the system now, the Eckford, Corrente, Henrique, Tedenby, Josephson, Zharkie and so on are on the verge of NHL primetime type minutes. And in the next year or two it should be full time. This is the first time in a long time Lou has gone out and grabbed a big name FA and signed him for a long time (long time for Lou at least), he signed another FA because he could mentor multiple prospects as they develop.
I think Lou is doing more than Maintenance with this off season in preparation for the next year or two. It’s not a rebuild, but more like making his last positioning with all his chess pieces before he pulls the trigger and takes the king. or cup.
Thats exactly how I think this team works.
I accidentally posted this on the other thread and think its a nice piggy-back to what Murdoc is saying.
It speaks volumes of the organization and the way that it is run that we, the fans, dont even know if we are in a rebuilding stage or not. The fact that this team can maintain a winning mentality and still be a Cup contender even through a seemingly harmless transitional period (if it even is one) is just incredible. We keep our core, have young guys come in, make trades when we need to, have the older vets leave and still manage to make the playoffs every year.
Lou is just a mad scientist that knows all the ins-and-outs of this league. He knew this was the plan all along. Cant wait to see what he has in store next…
by Marty'sBetter30 on Jul 15, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Re-tooling
The Devils are now re-tooling but one of the main problem during the last two years has been the interaction of the coaches ( Sutter & Lamaire ) and the players ! It is good to see that MacLean is taken over at a time when we are preparing to add some younger players to our core veterans.
Maybe it's a renovation?
To me, rebuilding implies that something is fundamentally wrong. Almost like knocking down a structure and reconstructing it from the bottom up with a new design. I would argue that that’s not what the Devils are doing now as many of their key parts have remained the same, and perhaps more importantly the team has been successful (lately, at least during the regular season) for the past 15 years.
I think what Lou is doing is more like a renovation. Kind of like a hotel that has really nice rooms and is getting a lot of customers, but they realize the pool could be a little better. I thought our major weakness in the playoffs, especially this past year, was our lack of physical play in the defensive zone. Our defense, once the driving force of the team’s success, had been deteriorating over the years after losing Stevens and Neidermayer. I’m not a huge fan of Colin White, but at least he throws his body around and I often found myself thanking him out loud to my TV against the Flyers for hitting somebody because it seemed like such a rare event.
I think Lou has possibly “rebuilt” our defense this offseason, but that the team overall is being renovated.
Lou Lamoriello traded away Bergfors (easily a future top-6 forward, if not already), Oduya (easily a top-3 defenseman) and Cormier (a … prospect) plus a 1st round draft pick to acquire a superstar winger last year who he hopes to re-sign, and you think we’re rebuilding?
We had a semi-rebuilding period in 2007-08, but nothing to wipe us out and rebuild. Let’s put it this way, nobody will be calling Lou at the deadline trying to pick up our spare parts like Carolina, Columbus, Edmonton, Toronto and Florida last year (even Atlanta by giving us Kovy)
Yankees in baseball, Giants in football and Devils in hockey. It's that simple. I have no off-season.
Bergfors (easily a future top-6 forward, if not already)
Easily? He was and probably still is on the Thrashers, but that’s a testament to their lack of forward depth rather than his abilities. What has he shown that suggests he can “easily” be a top 6 forward?
Oduya (easily a top-3 defenseman)
Or not. He was being paid as one, but he wasn’t playing like one. Hence the trade. He’s not even top 3 in Atlanta.
and you think we’re rebuilding?
Did you actually read this post, or the one I linked to that led to my starting this one?
If you had you’d understand the absurdity of that question.
We had a semi-rebuilding period in 2007-08
What defines a “semi-rebuilding period”? It seems to me it’s like building a house. You either are or you aren’t.
To "resign" is to voluntarily leave a position; retire. To "re-sign" is to sign again. When talking about free agents, please use the correct one.
lm always thinking the devils rebuild a little every year and this off season really dosnt seem a lot different.I really like the coaching staff all thow i have to admit i wish last years coach had a chance to work with volchenkov and talinder instead of martin and skoula.
by Imperator_Celtic on Jul 15, 2010 3:12 PM EDT reply actions
Rebuilding
Rebuilding is definitely not the right word.
The best example of recent rebuilding is the penguins who a few years ago when they were playing terribly but getting high picks (Crosby, Malkin, Fleurry, Stall) were in a rebuilding projecting. Changing their core group of players and ending the days of Jagr and Lemieux.
Other teams like the Blackhawks, Islanders, Kings are finishing or in the midst of rebuilding.
The Devils don’t really need to do this. Thanks to Lou drafting guys like Parise (who should have been drafted in the top 8) in the late first round and skill acquisitions which allow us to slowly change our core, but I think rather we are re-strategising Our defensive minded neutral-zone trap doesn’t seem to work without great offensive-minded defense-men like Stevens, Neitermeier and Rifalski. So I think the devils are going to become a more offensive minded team based on the attempts at signing skilled offense-men like Kovalchuk, adding a skilled (although expensive) 2nd line center Jason Arnott, and hiring an offensive minded assistant-coach, Adam Oates.
Along with that, seeing as how we were pushed around in our defensive zone by the Flyers last season we are also toughening up our defense with Anton Volchenkov.
Overall Lou seems to be strengthening the Devils and adding depth. Not rebuilding but adding talent, trimming off the fat, and shifting the game-plan.
Speaking as a Nets fan....
The concept of rebuilding is a painful phrase for any sports fan. Last year I had to witness the horrors of a “rebuilding” Nets team, which went 12-70 throughout the season and was nearly the worst team in the history of the league.
My definition of rebuilding is simple:
-when a team is absolutely gutted by management, with only the core youngsters and MVPs left on the roster.
-The entire team is basically destroyed and built again from the ground up.
-It’s the low end of the cyclical nature of any sports franchise.
-Its the point where heavy contracts are removed from the books in exchange for draft picks.
-Its the point where you let the rookies grow as opposed to making sure that the veterans get one last chance at a cup.
-Its the most painful part of being a sports fan.
-Its when your team will probably have their worst season as a franchise, if not one of the worsts.
-It’s when there is usually a huge management turnover, either because the team has been sold or the president doesn’t like the track record of the team as of late and somebody needs to be accountable.
All that being said…
I don’t think the Devils are rebuilding. This franchise has always been unique in that they rebuild on the fly, so to speak. They haven’t had a rebuilding stage since the early/mid 90s. They home grow their talent and keep that core at a cheap price, until they demand costly raises. One can argue that the farm system and excellent scouting is one of the biggest reasons why the Devils have been one of the most successful sports franchises in the past two decades.
But one thing I do get concerned with is if the Devils will remain in this pack of being not good enough to win the cup, but not bad enough to get a high draft pick. That is called purgatory, my friends, and its a bad spot to be in.
"We aim above the mark to hit the mark." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Purgatory
That is called purgatory, my friends, and its a bad spot to be in.
A lot of owners will sign onto purgatory, if it keeps their bottom line a little more flush. Lots of them would be quite happy with making the playoffs ten consecutive years and never making it out of the second round…. as opposed to a couple of years of a genuine rebuild and then a couple of deep runs including a title or two in the same span. In the NHL and the NBA, teams make a lot of their money (and often all of their profits) on the playoffs.
To use another local basketball team to illustrate this, look at the Knicks. Ten years ago, they could have let Patrick Ewing walk and started a complete rebuild. Instead they made a dumb trade, compounded it with a couple of other dumb trades, and built upon that foundation. A couple of years of playoffs resulted, sure, but the team is a complete disaster now (just missing a federal declaration to said effect). Now their current regime has started a genuine rebuild, but how many years did they (and their fans) waste in the process of trying to stay relevant?
I guess. Like I said, I think the Devils are a unique situation. It all comes down to the farm system in my eyes.
Now, if you use an example like the Rangers, I think that will prove my point that purgatory blows when you’re an NHL team. The Rangers haven’t been good enough to get anywhere since they won the cup, yet they haven’t been awful enough to get a top pick in the draft since Lunqvuist hopped aboard.
Compare that with the Penguins and Capitals who were awful for several years but got some high end, one of a kind talent, and are the two most marketable teams in the business because of it.
"We aim above the mark to hit the mark." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Not so much as rebuilding but renovating
I would not say that. They still have a core. Sure, we do need to get younger but the idea here is to build a team for 1-2 more try’s to get Marty a 4th cup. While building a team that will continue to create a Devils Dynasty
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