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Article 11.6, Not Article 26.13 is Happening After Ilya Kovalchuk Contract Rejection

On Wednesday morning, the NHL officially released the following statement from Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly to confirm that the league has rejected the contract between Ilya Kovalchuk and the New Jersey Devils.

"The contract has been rejected by the League as a circumvention of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Under the CBA, the contract rejection triggers a number of possible next steps that may be elected by any or each of the NHLPA, the Player and/or the Club. In the interim, the player is not entitled to play under the contract, nor is he entitled to any of the rights and benefits that are provided for thereunder. The League will have no further comment on this matter pending further developments."

The deal that was worth $102 million over 17 years, broken down as per Tom Gulitti here, now sits in limbo. It has been rejected. As the news rocked the world of the hockey media, the big question has been about what happens now.  I can conclude that based on the reports by Tom Gulitti, Rich Chere, Scott Burnside at ESPN.com, the National Post, and the Canadian Press via The Hockey News among other outlets is that one of the next steps is falls on the NHL Players Association on whether they will file a grievance claim about the rejection. This is especially bolstered by Lou Lamoriello stating that  This is per procedure in the NHL Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA). In fact, it is actually called out in Article 50.9.(b):

(b) Accounting for New SPCs in Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary. For any newly executed SPC agreed to between a Club and a Player, the averaged Amount of Player Salary and Bonuses provided for in such SPC shall commence counting against a Club's Averaged Club Salary upon the approval and registration of the SPC with the League. For purposes of determining a Club's Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, a rejected or de-registered SPC shall be treated in accordance with Article 11 of this Agreement.

It is important to understand Article 11 to realize what will happen next since the NHL rejected  the contract between Ilya Kovalchuk and the New Jersey Devils.  Likewise, it's important to understand what procedures aren't being followed.  I'll be referring to the NHL CBA quite a bit, so here is a link to the NHL CBA 6+ MB .PDF file from the NHL's site.  My citing of the CBA and my reasoning continues after the jump.  Be forewarned, this is a long piece and I could very well be wrong in interpreting some of this or missing something important.  I want to have the facts and a proper understanding based on the CBA above all, so if I do have something wrong, please let me know where I got it wrong and why it's wrong. It'll be appreciated by all who read this.

Star-divide

Let's Read Article 11.6

Article 11 is entitled "Rules and Procedures Governing Standard Player's Contract."  Within this article is a subsection devoted solely to rejected Standard Player's Contract (SPC).  That's Article 11.6 and it's vital for all Devils fans interested in this saga to fully grasp.    Let's go through it section by section. First off, here's the provision that justifies the NHL's rejection to begin with, Article 11.6.(a).(i)

(a) Rejection of SPCs and/or Offer Sheets. In the case of an SPC or an Offer Sheet, as the case may be, that is filed and rejected by the League, the following rules and procedures shall apply:

(i) If an SPC or an Offer Sheet is rejected: (A) because it results in the signing Club exceeding the Upper Limit, or (B) because it does not comply with the Maximum Player Salary or (C) because it is or involves a Circumvention of either the Club's Upper Limit or the Maximum Player Salary, and: ...

Before continuing with the two sub-clauses, I've already proven that it can't be A or B here.  C is the crucial one and will undoubtedly be the main point to prove in any future procedures from here on out.   Anyway, there are two options that follow after the SPC (the Kovalchuk contract) was rejected:

(x) if the NHLPA does not timely dispute and refer to the Arbitrator such rejection in the manner set forth in Section 11.5(g) above, then immediately upon the expiration of the time period within which the NHLPA may dispute and refer to the Arbitrator such rejection, the SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, will be deemed null and void ab initio (i.e., the Player's Free Agency and/or contractual status shall revert to the status he held prior to signing his SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be), and the Player shall not be entitled to any of the rights or benefits provided for under the rejected SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be; or

(y) if the NHLPA does timely dispute and refer to the Arbitrator such rejection in the manner set forth in Section 11.5(g) above, then such dispute over that rejection shall be both heard and decided by the Arbitrator within fortyeight (48) hours of such referral, during which period the Player shall not be entitled to play under such SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, and shall not be entitled to any of the rights and benefits provided for under such SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, pending a resolution of such grievance by the Arbitrator.

The NHL rejected Kovalchuk's contract, the NHLPA has 5 days to file a grievance.  If they do, per Article 11.6.(a).(y), there will be an arbitration hearing to either sustain or overrule the NHL's rejection.  If they don't, per Article 11.6.(a).(x), then the rejection is taken as-is.  The contract will be null and voided; Ilya Kovalchuk goes back to being an unrestricted free agent; and there is no other penalty.  The New Jersey Devils could certainly sign him as could any of the other 29 teams in the NHL.   

While we wait for the NHLPA to make a move, Kovalchuk is essentially in limbo. He's not a free agent, but he's not a member of the New Jersey Devils or getting anything from the contract that has been rejected.

Since it was called out in these two sections, let's quickly look at Article 11.5.(g). The top-level article section covers the timeliness of the filing and approval process of contracts. Here's the relevant part of 11.5.(g) that backs up what has been reported (for example, this post by Gulitti)

In the event the League rejects an SPC or Offer Sheet pursuant to Section 11.6(a) below, or challenges and/or de-registers an SPC pursuant to Section 11.6(b) below, if the NHLPA disputes such rejection, challenge and/or de-registration, the NHLPA must notify the League, in writing via facsimile and e-mail, by no later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the day following the day such notice of rejection, challenge and/or de-registration is received by the NHLPA...except that the NHLPA may provide such notice by no later than five (5) days from the day such notice is sent by the League if the League's notice is sent between July 1 and the date which is seven (7) days prior to the commencement of the Regular Season (provided that a notice sent by the League after 5:00 p.m. New York time shall be deemed to have been sent on the following day for purposes of this provision). Such notice from the NHLPA shall set forth the specific reasons that are the basis for such NHLPA dispute.

Now, suppose the PA does file a grievance within 5 days, the sticking point becomes getting an arbitrator.  The PA and NHL must agree on who it is and there's no time limit  called out in Article 11 on how long it can take to get someone.  It could be days. It could be weeks.  Once someone is decided upon, then the 48 hour window of argument-and-decision by the arbitrator kicks in.  So there is a way this could be dragged out.  

In any case, once someone is found and the dispute is argued, there are two outcomes. The first is the arbitrator finds that the NHL's rejection is indeed valid.  In that case, Article 11.6.(a).(iii) takes effect:

(iii) If the Arbitrator sustains the League's rejection of any such SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, pursuant to subsection (i) above, then the Arbitrator shall order that the rejected SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, will, immediately upon the League's receipt of the Arbitrator's decision, be deemed null and void ab initio (i.e., the Player's Free Agency and/or contractual status shall revert to the status he held prior to signing his SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be), and the Player shall not be entitled to any of the rights or benefits provided for under the rejected SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, other than the right to be paid such Paragraph 1 Salary and Bonuses (other than Signing, Roster or Reporting Bonuses, if any) earned during the period, if any, such Player played for the Club pursuant to such SPC.

The effect is largely the same as Article 11.6.(a).(x); Kovalchuk's contract is voided, he becomes a UFA again, and the Devils are back at square one.   Please note that the only addition is that the player does get paid for any salary earned while playing.  Given that it's the offseason, that would likely be nothing for Kovalchuk.   Still, do note that there are no subsequent penalties called out here.

Now, the other outcome is that the arbitrator finds that the NHL's rejection of the contract was not valid.  Article 11.6.(a).(v) goes over what happens:

(v) If the Arbitrator rules that the League's rejection of an SPC or Offer Sheet, as the case may be, pursuant to either subsection (i) or (ii) above was not proper, then the sole remedy the Arbitrator shall be authorized to provide shall be to direct the League promptly to approve and register such SPC and to direct the Club to pay to the Player such Paragraph 1 NHL Salary or Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary, as the case may be, and Bonuses, including such Signing, Roster or Reporting Bonuses, if any, that the Player would have earned had the SPC been registered and approved as of the deadline set forth in Section 11.4(d) above through the date that such SPC is in fact registered and approved (i.e., the period of time missed solely as a result of the League's improper rejection). Further, if the Player missed a games-played bonus by one (1) game, then the Arbitrator shall have the discretion to award the Player such bonus. The Arbitrator shall not be authorized to award any other bonuses, payments, damages or other equitable or legal relief to the Player.

Essentially, the NHL has to accept the contract as-is without penalty.  Kovalchuk is a Devil with a cap hit of $6 million per year.  What Gulitti reported as possible outcomes from arbitration are all valid outcomes from Article 11.6.(a).  Therefore, the NHL and PA are going through the procedures outlined in this Article 11.6, as defined in the CBA.  That much is apparent.

As far as what could go on in the arbitration, who knows? Provided the PA representation are on their "A" game, it shouldn't be too difficult to point out that the Kovalchuk contract originally signed does meet Article 50, which governs the team's Upper Limit of the Averaged Club Salary and the Maximum Player Salary.  The issue is circumvention, though, and that's in Article 26.

Now, I got a fun discussion question.  Article 11.6.(b) goes over the NHL being allowed to challenge and de-register approved SPCs.  Could the NHL follow Article 11.6.(b).(iii), which will de-register the contract for circumvention; leading to this similar process with the same possible outcomes (de-registration is sustained, it's overruled, or it's not challenged and just accepted) for a SPC that has already been through this process after initial rejection?  I'd like to say no, but I'm not seeing anything in Article 11 that's clear.

Speaking of what I'm not seeing in Article 11, it's any call out of Article 50, which regulates SPCs with respect to the team's payroll, or Article 26, which defines circumventions.   Odd that Article 11.6.(a).(i) allows for circumvention to be a reason for rejection, yet it doesn't refer to either article for additional information or procedures.  Would it be fair to assume that they could be used in the arbitration hearing?  I don't know for certain.  Either way, I am taking that to mean that the procedures outlined in Article 11.6.(a) stands on its own.

This is a very important distinction to make.

The Procedure of Article 26 & Why There's No Reason to Believe It's In Process (Now)

Article 26 covers circumvention and it's a very serious and broad set of provisions with it's own set of judgment procedures.  It's set up quite differently than Article 11.6.(a), and the consequences are more serious than just voiding the contract.  That said, there's no reason to believe this is on-going.   The best way to describe this is to go backwards.

First, here is Article 26.13.(c) which describes the punishment scenario:

(c) In the event that the System Arbitrator finds that a Circumvention has been committed by a Player or Player Actor, the System Arbitrator may impose any or all of the following penalties and/or remedies set forth below. In the event that the System Arbitrator finds that a Circumvention has been committed by a Club or a Club Actor, the Commissioner may impose any or all of the following penalties and/or remedies set forth below:

(i) Impose a fine of up to $5 million in the case of a Circumvention by a Club or Club Actor, but in no circumstances shall such fine be less than $1 million against any Club or Club Actor if such party is found to have violated Article 50 of this Agreement. If such a fine is assessed against a Club (except in the case of a financial reporting violation), that Club's Payroll Room shall also be reduced by such amount for the following League Year, and if such reduction of the Club's Payroll Room renders the Club out of compliance with the Payroll Range (i.e., the Club does not have sufficient Payroll Room to accommodate its Player commitments
comprising Club Salary) for such following League Year, then the Club must take such steps as are necessary (e.g. Assignment, Buy-Out, Waivers, etc.) and as are permitted by this Agreement to ensure that the Club will be in compliance with Article 50 of this Agreement upon commencement of the following League Year;

There are 5 additional penalties ranging from a smaller fine, a loss of draft picks, voiding the contract, forfeiture of wins during the period of the circumventing contract, and suspension of parties involved. I've only quoted the first one because it actually calls out Article 50.

Well, I don't believe this contract violates Article 50. In fact, the contract and the team are compliant with it's regulations. Ergo, I think this penalty can't be enforced.   In fact, I don't believe that things will ever get as far as Article 26.13.(c).   Here's the two sub-sections prior in Article 26.13:

26.13 Enforcement by the System Arbitrator.
(a) Failing a resolution through the joint conference established pursuant to Section 26.12 above regarding any possible Circumvention, either the NHL or NHLPA may commence any action before the System Arbitrator alleging that a Circumvention has occurred. Such action must be filed within forty-eight (48) hours of the joint conference's declaration that they have not reached a resolution regarding the alleged Circumvention, or shall be deemed waived. An action under this Section 26.13 shall be heard and decided under Article 48 within seven (7) days of the filing of the action, and a decision shall be rendered within three (3) days thereafter. The parties may jointly agree to extend any of the above deadlines.

(b) The System Arbitrator may find a Circumvention has occurred based on direct or circumstantial evidence, including without limitation, evidence that an SPC or any provision of an SPC cannot reasonably be explained in the absence of conduct prohibited by this Article 26. The investigation and findings of the Investigator pursuant to Section 26.10 shall be fully admissible in any proceeding before the System Arbitrator under this Section 26.13.

This is quite different from Article 11.6.(a).  There's more flexibility in the allowed lengths of time for decisions.  The arbitrator doesn't need definitive evidence.  The goal isn't to uphold a decision, it's to determine whether circumvention has taken place.  I'll get to how that's defined a little later.  Still, there's no grievance to be filed by the PA that makes this arbitration happen, just a claim that there has been circumvention.

While some will point to 26.13.(b) and start feeling nervous on how broad it is; let me point out that there's a call out for an earlier section of Article 26.  Most of all, look at the very beginning in 26.13.(a).  Article 26.13 does not take effect unless there is a failure of a joint conference per Article 26.12.   Joint conference?  What?  Let's head right on up to Article 26.12.

26.12 Joint Discussions on Possible Circumventions. Each Investigator shall notify the other after he has concluded an investigation under Section 26.10. Within three (3) days after such notification, and prior to the Investigator's issuance of a report concerning the results of such investigation, the parties shall meet and confer to try to resolve the matter. If the parties reach a resolution, the Investigator reserves the discretion as to whether to issue a report concerning the alleged Circumvention. If the matter is not resolved, the Investigator shall issue a report concerning the alleged Circumvention. Neither the NHL nor NHLPA may commence any action before the System Arbitrator pursuant to Section 26.13 below prior to the parties having met and conferred pursuant to this Section 26.12.

The bolded text is my own and it's the most important part to focus on.  The only way things go to a Systems Arbitrator per Article 26.13 and that judgment is the NHL and the parties involved don't reconcile on a disputed claim of circumvention. The league can't skip to the arbitration, this must be followed.  As far as I can tell, if the NHL alleged circumvention and investigated the Kovalchuk contract, they have to sit down with the Devils and/or the PA and hammer out some sort of compromise that ends the issue.     Since that hasn't happened, there's no need to worry about 26.13.  It's not happening unless this is accomplished

These actions can't be done without qualification either. The parties can't meet until they have been notified about the conclusion of an "investigation."  So what in the world is an investigation?  That's described in Article 26.10. There's quite a bit, so let's go through it one-by-one:

26.10 Investigations.
(a) The Commissioner of the NHL or the Executive Director of the NHLPA (the "Investigator") may, sua sponte or based upon reports or complaints received by either, commence an investigation regarding whether a Circumvention has occurred.

The NHLPA doesn't have an executive director yet, so I would think only Gary Bettman can commence an investigation at this juncture.

(b) The Investigator's authority to investigate (i) a possible Circumvention relating to an SPC shall in no way be limited by the fact that such SPC was approved and registered by Central Registry pursuant to Article 11 of this Agreement; or (ii) a possible Circumvention relating to financial reporting by a Club, Clubs or the League shall in no way be limited by the fact that the Initial, Interim or Final HRR Report has been issued by the Independent Accountants.

Now this is intriguing.  Essentially, any player's contract that has been approved is eligible for investigation for circumvention.   I would think that even if the contract is accepted via Article 11.6.(a).(v), that it still could be investigated later on.

So if the NHL rejects the contract and that rejection is sustained,  does that mean they can't investigate it for circumvention on the basis that the contract would be voided?  I would think so, but 26.10.(b).(i) isn't quite clear.

(c) The Investigator may obtain the authority, upon good cause shown to the System Arbitrator, to require any Player, Player Actor, Club or Club Actor to produce any relevant books and records, including without limitation, insurance records, telephone records, e-mails, tax returns or other relevant tax materials disclosing (i) the income or revenue information of the Player, Player Actor, Club or Club Actor and/or (ii) any information of the Club or any Club Actor in the custody or control of the Player or the Player Agent, which materials and information shall be treated as highly confidential.

In other words, this gives the investigation authority to go through any records to determine intended or blatant circumvention.

(d) There shall be no limitation of time barring the investigation of a Circumvention by the Commissioner.

An investigation can go on as long as possible. Even after the contract in question has begun.

(e) At the conclusion of his investigation, the Investigator shall issue a written determination regarding whether or not, in his opinion, a Circumvention has occurred. The Investigator's determination shall not be binding, but it shall be fully admissible in any hearing commenced before the System Arbitrator pursuant to Section 26.13 below.

Not only that, but before this report is issued, there must be a joint discussion per 26.12.

(f) The Investigator's failure to initiate an investigation of a suspected Circumvention may be grieved under Section 26.13 but such failure shall not itself be considered a Circumvention.

You can complain about the lack of an investigation, but failing to investigation is not an illicit action by the league?  So how in the world does the joint discussions happen as described in 26.12 without an investigation?  I guess the investigator (Bettman/NHLPA executive director) can just call the parties together; but then what happens afterwards? What would he have to introduce?  Of all of the clauses here, this is the most confusing.

Now, let's take a step back to last summer.  Investigations are not secret events that no one talks about.  Definitely not in today's era of the Internet delivering news at any time.  Just like how sources have appeared for all kinds of rumors, imminent signings, and league activity, sources revealed that the Marian Hossa and Chris Pronger contracts (example reports: TSN, ESPN, MLive) were up for investigation for circumvention.  So far, nothing has happened, but per 26.10.(d), the investigation can take all the time in the world before making a conclusion. UPDATE #1: Mirtle pointed me to this article in the Globe and Mail by Eric Duhatschek that notes that the investigations into Hossa's, Pronger's, and Luongo's (!) contracts are actually still active.

Why is this relevant for Devils fans worrying about Ilya Kovalchuk?  Essentially it means you all should rest a little easier.  As far as I know, there aren't any outlets reporting that the NHL is investigating the Kovalchuk contract, only that the NHL has rejected the contract.   That would be a separate, and bigger, story since the potential penalties are much larger.  Since there's no investigation per Article 26.10 right now, the joint discussion described in Article 26.12 isn't happening (and probably would only happen if the investigation found something wrong). Since there's no joint discussion, Article 26.13 isn't happening yet.  Instead, the procedure being followed is in Article 11.6.(a).

Therefore, until there are reports of an investigation, there is no reason to believe that the NHL will hit the Devils with a cap penalty or take their picks according to the CBA.   Would the NHL investigate a contract that was once rejected and overruled by an arbitrator? Possibly, but there's no reason to be concerned about that until then.  If someone tries to tell you that the Devils will face minimum penalties, then you have the facts to tell him or her that's false.

If there is evidence that the NHL is investigating this deal, then that changes things.  Still, it's a long way to go before it would reach the Systems Arbitrator per Article 26.13.

What is the NHL's Issue?  Article 26 Does Hold a Possible Answer

Allow me to speculate for quite a bit after detailing two procedures on contract judgment.

What would likely be brought up in arbitration in Article 11.6.(a) are the definition of circumvention.  Multiple sections in Article 26 go over what circumvention is, per the general section Article 26.1:

26.1 General. The activities described or referred to in, or expressly prohibited by, Sections 26.2 through 26.7, and 26.15, whether completed or attempted, directly or indirectly, shall be deemed Circumventions under this Agreement and shall be penalized as described in and provided by Section 26.13.

As already explained, getting to 26.13 is a far more involved process.  Article 26.15 provides a non-exhaustive list of examples. The Kovalchuk contract doesn't meet those examples on it's own, but it is a non-exhaustive list that's really only there for reference as far as I can tell.   Articles 26.3.(a) and 26.3.(b) basically define a broad range of circumvention by either a player, a player actor (e.g. an agent), a club, or a club actor (e.g. member of management).   Article 26.4 just states that both the PA and NHL are subject to committing circumvention; 26.5 goes over the situation of circumvention involving someone who has yet to become a player; 26.6 forbids payment to agents; and 26.7 requires players and teams to properly disclose circumventions they are aware of in writing.  Feel free to read all of that at your own leisure, though I will bring up a part of 26.3 in a little bit (See Update #2).

What strikes me is the description of undisclosed agreements, which is called out in Article 26.2. 

26.2 Undisclosed Terms and Revenues.
A Club (directly or indirectly through a "Club Actor," i.e., any owner, shareholder, Club Affiliated Entity, the NHL or third party acting at the behest of a Club) and a Player (directly or indirectly through a "Player Actor," i.e., his Certified Agent or any other individual, any entity, or the NHLPA, acting on behalf of the Player) may not, at any time, enter into undisclosed agreements of any kind, express or implied, oral or written, or promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind involving consideration of any kind to be paid, furnished or made available or guaranteed to the Player, or Player Actor, by the Club or Club Actor either prior to, during, or after the term of the Player's SPC.

This is appropriate considering what sources have said why the NHL rejected Kovalchuk's contract.  Per Tom Gulitti's initial post about the league's rejection of Kovalchuk's contract, the NHL doesn't think Kovalchuk will play out the full length of his contract. 

The contract, which is the longest in NHL history, pays Kovalchuk $95 million over the first 10 seasons and just seven over the last seven seasons. Kovlachuk’s salary for each of the last five seasons is just $550,000. That helps lower the annual average salary and cap hit to a manageable $6 million per season.

The contract would expire when Kovalchuk is 44 years old. TSN is reporting that the league rejected the deal because it believes neither the Devils nor Kovalchuk expect the player will be playing near the end of the deal.

If this is accurate, then one would think the NHL feels there is an undisclosed agreement; hence they rejected it based on the case of circumvention.  The reasoning is weak according the agents quoted by Michael Traikos in the National Post; most notably by Ian Pulver, player-agent and CBA author. After all, Article 50 doesn't have a limit on contract length (I may be wrong in saying there was an explicit statement saying no limit, but there's no explicit limit either), there's nothing else in Article 50 that the contract violates, and short of psychics getting involved, definitively proving that Kovalchuk won't play until he's 44 is going to be a gargantuan challenge.

Perhaps that would help explain why the NHL decided to just outright reject the contract instead of going through all of Article 26?  An investigation may not yield proof of an undisclosed agreement; so if they just reject it, take the contract through Article 11.6.(a) and the situation ends much more cleanly for everyone involved.  Kovalchuk goes back to UFA; the Devils aren't penalized beyond the contract being voided and can re-sign him to a different deal if they want to retain the player; and the NHL makes their point about Article 26 in arbitration without going through an investigation and a joint discussion.   The union would look weak, but without a leader right now, they looked weak to begin with.

So ends my speculation, do note that I fully would accept that I am wrong since this is, well, speculation.  Take it with a grain of salt, just like you should with anyone fretting about 26.13 at this juncture. 

UPDATE #2: Would you believe I forgot this important bit from Article 26.3? Section (i) is something to remember:

(i) Any act, conduct, or activity that is permitted by this Agreement shall not be a Circumvention.

So contracts that would be valid per Article 50 can't be seen as circumvention on that basis, right? Basically, the NHL would have to justify circumvention on something that isn't permitted in the CBA. An undisclosed agreement would definitely fall under that, but so could other matters.  Again, just speculating at the end here.  End Update #2

The Takeaways & Your Take

To sum up: This rejection is based on circumvention of the club upper limit or maximum player salary - despite that neither has been violated per Article 50.  The next step are the procedures listed in Article 11.6.(a) and has three outcomes: The NHLPA files a grievance, subsequent arbitration rules in favor the NHL's rejection, and the contract is dead per 11.6.(a).(iii).  The NHLPA files a grievance, subsequent arbitration rules against the NHL's rejection, and the contract is accepted per 11.6.(a).(v).  The NHLPA doesn't file a grievance and the NHL's rejection takes hold, leaving the contract void per 11.6.(a).(x).    

Articles 26.10 through 26.13 (and it's associated penalties) aren't involved until there is an investigation by the NHL or NHLPA into cap circumvention per 26.10 which will kick that procedure off.  They would have to find evidence of sorts per Articles 26.2 - 26.7 or 26.15, put a report together presuming that there is reason to believe there is circumvention, and have a joint discussion with all parties to resolve issues before issuing said report in 26.12 before going to the Systems Arbitrator in 26.13.

I speculated that based on what sources have said so far that led the NHL to reject the contract.  I could be very wrong, but I made my guess all the same.  Regardless, the next steps are outlined in Article 11.6, which does not call out or refer to Article 26 or 50 specifically in any part of Article 11.

In other words, Devils fans and others who may be reading this, we're waiting for a grievance to be filed by the NHLPA by Monday.  That's all.  Until that happens or the deadline is reached, take a deep breath and relax.

Now it's your turn. Did I get something wrong? Did I misinterpret something?  Is there additional information that changes the whole scope of what will happen next?  Please let me know your feelings in the comments.  Like with the last post, I'm not interested in conjecture and definitely not interested in saying bad things about other blogs or whatever.  Talk about Articles 11 and 26.  Talk about the procedures.  Talk about the CBA.  Bring facts. 

And if you get this far, you have my sincere thanks for getting through all of this. I hope you found at least some of this to be worth your while.

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My head hurts...

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 23, 2010 10:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Owww Legalese

You’re a brave man trying to interpret it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but pretty much it’s a battle of what does circumvection mean and entail?

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All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
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by Willgfass on Jul 23, 2010 10:20 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s part of it. Circumvention has to be defined, show that whatever the issue is violates one of those clauses, and hope the arbitrator in 11.6.(a) agrees.

If he or she does, then the rejection’s upheld. If not, then the contract is acceptable as-is.

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by John Fischer on Jul 23, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

Circumventing: circling or going around to avoid. AKA Utilizing a loop hole. Not difficult to understand.

by S.Stevens on Aug 8, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It wouldn’t be so bad if it were merely legalese. The problem is that its poorly constructed legalese (the CBA that is, not JF’s work).

Maybe the NHL’s attorneys should get to work on refining the language now, so they have something to work off of during the next round of CBA negotiations.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Jul 26, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

legalese

It’s only poorly drafted if it was supposed to be clear. On things like this sometimes the parties would prefer to leave it vague, especially when they believe it is unlikely to come up and it’s better to have it decided later instead of holding up the present negotiations. I’m not saying that’s what happened, i’m just saying that’s possible (and common).

This is a good post, but all of the CBA is in effect and it has to all be read together. The arbitrator is simply going to decide how to interpret that vague language. He is going to have a whole bunch of examples of the NHL interpreting other similar contracts as valid.

For the NHL to win, they will have to show that the Kovalchuk contract is different in kind and not merely in degree from the valid ones. As I noted in a side post, they cannot realistically argue that it is a threat to the CBA system since it adheres to the revenue-based yearly cap. They’re going to have to come up with some other reason. I’m sure they will. Don’t know if it’s going to be a good one though.

My guess is the PA wins this one but the NHL is happy because (a) it will deter other teams from doing this in order to avoid the uncertainty of this process and (b) it sets a marker for negotiations in the next round.

I think that view will be validated if they manage to agree on an arbitrator before training camp opens, because that will show that this is at least partly kabuki and not blood sport.

by stormj on Jul 26, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 26, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would you believe I had to update this a second time to add something I initially forgot?

Well, I did. I hope no one minds.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 23, 2010 10:26 PM EDT reply actions  

(i) Any act, conduct, or activity that is permitted by this Agreement shall not be a Circumvention.

That seems like a case winning argument. The Devils and Grossman followed every guideline outlined in the CBA agreement!

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 23, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just hope the NHLPA is working this hard to conjure up a winning case.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 23, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, it’s not really a case-winner. It just mean the NHL will have to make sure their issue isn’t a permissible act elsewhere in the CBA. That’s all.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 23, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the NHL’s only possible argument/hope is to try to prove either conspiracy to defraud or collusion.

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 23, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’ve diligently read through your last two posts, and from what i’ve read, pertaining to the 3 relevant articles (11,50,26), and barring a smoking gun type of piece of evidence from the league, it seems as if if this case came to arbitration, the NHLPA would win this. The contract perfectly conforms to the guidelines provided by the article 50, and the line:

(i) Any act, conduct, or activity that is permitted by this Agreement shall not be a Circumvention.
seems to provide a cushion that would force the NHL to find a concrete piece of evidence in order to prove that the contract circumvents the cap.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 23, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

all makes sense to me, john, and i’ve been going over the same stuff you have.

it’s unclear to me how articles 11 and 26 interact, i guess we’ll see in the next few days. in poring over this material, i don’t see where the NHL can hang its hat unless a: it can prove intent to circumvent the spirit of the CBA or b: it finds something incriminating in discussions between grossman/lou/vanderbeek regarding kovalchuk not playing the years at the back end. i think the devils have a much better than 50% of beating this thing.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 10:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Article 11.6.(a).(i) calls out that rejection can be made due to circumvention. Well, the only place where circumvention is defined is Article 26. However, I wanted to make it clear that the procedures in Article 11.6, which has no serious penalty written in beyond voiding the contract, are the only ones in effect right now.

Article 26’s procedures regarding SPCs suspected circumvention only begin with an investigation, followed by a joint discussion, and then arbitration – no decision and then grievance like Article 11.6. I wanted to clarify the two are separate despite the high likelihood that other parts of Article 26 may be brought up in Article 11.6’s arbitration if only to show circumvention.

I’m still not at all sure what’s being circumvented. It must be either the upper limit of the team of the maximum player salary. Per Article 50, it can’t be the latter, so how is it the former?

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 23, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s no way to know yet, but I think the argument for the League would have to say that while the terms all comply with Article 50, since the League is asserting that the Kovy has no intention to finish the length of the contract, the Devils knew that, and submitted a contract that neither party intended to complete.

Therefore the only purpose of the contract as structured (length and avg cap hit) is to Circumvent the Upper Limit.

I don’t see how they can win that argument though, honestly.

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t think they win it either, but they at least demonstrate that they’ve had enough, and that anyone wanting to submit a contract like that will have to go through a ton of hassle. someone like lou can get away with it, but a general manager in a more tenuous position in his organization may not want to risk a rejection.

and who knows, it’s just one arbitrator, he or she could rule just about any way. think stevens/shanahan.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

It, at this moment, appears to be a very difficult needle to thread for the League. If this was the first contract submitted with this sort of structure, if there was no precedent of the Hossa, Luongo, et al contracts, then I think the League could ‘get away’ with rejecting this sort of contractual structure.

But they didn’t.

Also, it’s all ultimately compensation for a CBA that isn’t well written in some respects. As one of the articles with the agent quotes indicated, the League wanted contract length limits. They couldn’t get it.

If they are trying to disincentivize other clubs from pushing this, it might work…. unless the NHLPA challenges, wins, and the League looks really bad. Which is why I said the other day that I don’t understand the timing for the League.

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think the NHL has to step in somewhere, and this is a contract that doesn’t even pretend that kovalchuk is going to finish it out (people who want to argue otherwise, spare me, kovalchuk has about as much chance of playing in the NHL at 43 as i do). the NHL also got lucky that the flyers didn’t bother to read the CBA before signing someone – they might’ve rejected the pronger contract were it not a 35+ contract.

the league looks bad almost regardless of the outcome here. they don’t lose all that much by losing a challenge to this contract – it’s pretty clear that guys like semin and thornton are going to get front-loaded deals of this nature next off-season. if they win this, maybe they squash that possibility.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

(people who want to argue otherwise, spare me, kovalchuk has about as much chance of playing in the NHL at 43 as i do)

Why do you believe this to be as true as you do?

The players that have played a season over the age of 40 in the last 10 seasons are: Chelios, Hasek, Larionov, Claude Lemieux, Messier, Andreychuk, Roberts, Albelin, Belfour, Brett Hull, Joseph, Oates, Roberts, Bourque, Burke, Francis, Mario Lemieux, MacInnis, Mellanby, Nieuwendyk, Numminen, Patrick, Recchi, Shanahan, Thomas, Yzerman.

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many of those played over the age of 43?

how many of them played for the league minimum?

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

recchi is turning 43

PS3: J-CAMPS

by J-camps on Jul 23, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks, yes and Recchi, who is making 1M.

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

look at the stats he had last year, didnt he have like 43 points or so, not bad for his age
and 1-year deal

PS3: J-CAMPS

by J-camps on Jul 24, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Chelios (under 1M the last 4 years)
Hasek (2M, was $750k the year prior)
Larionov (1.5M)
C.Lemieux ($500k)
Messier (3.9M, end of a long contract I believe)

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t understand why you are listing players who played over 40 in the first place. why not list players who played in the league at age 27?

when a player is 40, it’s more likely he will play at 43.

by Triumph44 on Jul 24, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because most people when they have said there’s no way Kovy plays to 43 base it on ‘how few players play to 43). Meanwhile, they usually don’t realize that more and more players are playing into their 40s.

You didn’t answer why you are certain Kovy won’t be playing at 43. I merely offered the information that playing past the age of 40 isn’t as uncommon as it used to be, and in fact becoming more common.

by Langer Monk on Jul 24, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

because he will be making 200k below the league minimum and looking at the history of inflation his salary will be around what $350,000 is today. he will almost certainly not be a positive-value player, either. no, great, i can’t prove he won’t be playing, because it’s something that’s impossible to prove. it’s exceptionally unlikely.

by Triumph44 on Jul 24, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

i am surprised you did not bring up 26.3, because that to me is where the NHL is hanging its hat.

(a) No Club or Club Actor, directly or indirectly, may: (i) enter into any
agreements, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements,
assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, whether express, implied, oral or
written, including without limitation, any SPC, Qualifying Offer, Offer Sheet or other
transaction, or (ii) take or fail to take any action whatsoever, if either (i) or (ii) is intended
to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the
intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement
, including
without limitation, provisions with respect to the financial and other reporting obligations
of the Clubs and the League, Team Payroll Range, Player Compensation Cost
Redistribution System, the Entry Level System and/or Free Agency.

this contract, according to the NHL, is violating the intention of the collective bargaining agreement. it is not in violation of anything in Article 50. it is not in violation of anything else. it merely seeks to subvert the intention of the CBA by adding years to the contract that kovalchuk has no intention of playing, so as to decrease the salary cap number.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:07 PM EDT reply actions  

geez i am terrible at posting on this site. this is supposed to be a reply to john’s reply to my comment.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

(i) Any act, conduct, or activity that is permitted by this Agreement shall not be a Circumvention.

So what exactly about the contract is not permitted by the agreement.

It seems as if everybody who is against the contract is so set on proving that it’s illegal but have no evidence whatsoever to prove it.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 23, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

the opposite of that isn’t true though – i.e., any activity that is not not permitted is not necessarily allowed. the NHL sets that out pretty clearly in article 26 – that they haven’t conceived of every situation where a circumvention might occur, but reserve the right to deem things they haven’t thought of circumventions.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, the League has pretty much said what is not permitted is to negotiate a contract that the parties have no intention of completing. We all here believe at this point there’s no evidence to prove that.

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

there’s no evidence on the surface. there very well may be written evidence somewhere, and an investigation might ferret that out.

don’t get me wrong, i’m a devils fan and would love to see this kovalchuk contract hold up. but you have to admit it’s not exactly kosher.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

you really don’t seem at all like a devils fan, you’ve been arguing points against the contract all day, the nhl may have the right to deem that a contract is a circumvention, but that doesn’t mean that they have any substantial evidence to prove that it is circumvention. And once again, as that statement says, any activity permitted by the agreement is not a circumvention, and everything in the contract conforms to the CBA, so they really don’t have a leg to stand on.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 23, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s any less non-kosher than any other deal structured this way. And since there’s no definable kosher limit on this sort of thing in the CBA, how do you single out this deal?

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

it is more non-kosher. look at the numbers. gabe desjardins already showed it. none of the other contracts have 5 years on the back at the league minimum salary.

by Triumph44 on Jul 23, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understandable, but when dealing with what’s kosher under the CBA, and in front of an arbitrator, when there’s no specific thing you can point to structurally, it’ll take more than ‘worse than the others’.

Speed limit example has been used. yeah, the Devils are doing 80, while the other teams were doing 70. But what is the speed limit? There isn’t one, 80 just feels too fast.

by Langer Monk on Jul 23, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually think based on that article

That the NHL doesn’t even need to prove that Kovalchuk has zero intention of playing or that there is an undisclosed agreement, but that he is hideously unlikely to be playing at the end of the deal.

To word this as conservatively as possible: if there is a 10% chance that he plays out his age 44 season (from all the data, this seems like an extremely generous number no?)—-this means that there is a 90% chance that the contract as structured will result in an artificially lowered cap hit for years 1-16. The intent of the Devils is to give themselves a 90% chance to get that artificially lowered cap hit, which is obviously beneficial in a way that I would say is “Circumvention of the Upper Limit”.

Whether 90% would be sufficient burden of proof I’m not entirely sure, but I would think that’s at least a case for the NHL if they could make the argument that he only has a 10% chance of playing.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 23, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Artificial? Please read Article 50 again
this means that there is a 90% chance that the contract as structured will result in an artificially lowered cap hit for years 1-16. The intent of the Devils is to give themselves a 90% chance to get that artificially lowered cap hit, which is obviously beneficial in a way that I would say is "Circumvention of the Upper Limit".

What is artificial about the cap hit? Article 50.5 defines a cap hit as average amount of a contract. 50.6 and 50.7 regulate it’s breakdown. This contract meets all of those requirements, so what in the world is artificial about it?

Also, how is the Upper Limit being circumvented by the Devils with this contract? They are within the 10% buffer allowed in the offseason with the deal and they still have to be under the Upper Limit regardless. They aren’t going around it at all regardless of the likelihood of Kovalchuk playing until he’s 44. In every year, short of the CBA changing drastically to remove a salary cap at all, the Devils have to be under the Upper Limit. This contract does not compromise this.

One more thing: Kovalchuk’s birthday is on April 15. 1983. He will only be turning 44 either at the end of the 2026-27 season or in the first round of the playoffs (assuming the season is still 82 games long and runs from October through April). So for the majority of that season, he’ll be 43. I’m amazed it’s Saturday and I just realized this.

But it doesn’t matter since Article 50 has no limits on contract lengths, and the salary breakdown is acceptable per 50.6 and 50.7.

Lastly: The whole idea of “intent he’s not playing” would fall under an undisclosed agreement, no? If so, prove there’s an agreement. Because that’ll be a lot easier for the NHL’s case than essentially saying “No way he’s playing until he’s 44” and hoping that’s it.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

What is artificial about the cap hit? Article 50.5 defines a cap hit as average amount of a contract. 50.6 and 50.7 regulate it’s breakdown. This contract meets all of those requirements, so what in the world is artificial about it?

Because in essence it is a 16 year contract that is being accounted for by dividing by 17. If you buy the premise that it is extremely unlikely that Kovalchuk will be playing his age 43 season, then it’s overwhelmingly likely that in reality it is a 16 year 101.5M deal whose cap hit is being determined by 102 divided by 17 and that calculated AAV is lower than the AAV of the intended contract.

There may not be an actual undisclosed agreement, but there is certainly an understanding by the Devils that it is unlikely that Kovy will be playing out his age 43 season, do you disagree with that statement?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s all well and fine but there is nothing illegal about there being a 10% chance that a player plays out the last year of his contract. You show me where they forbid that in the CBA. You have no legitimate evidence to prove the contract is illegal and therefore keep trying to say that it is highly unlikely, that argument will not hold up in an arbitration hearing.Next.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

And look below
is intended to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement,

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your entire argument is predicated on your assumption that won’t play the final year of his contract.

There is nothing in the contract itself, so far as we all know, or that has been publicly said to indicate that that is anything but a subjective assumption on your part.

I’m no lawyer, but I’m pretty confident that objective arbiters don’t make decisions based on unprovable and unknowable assumptions.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Especially when precedent has been set with Luongo’s contract to allow long contracts to bring a player to age 43.

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 24, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Technically

Luongo starts the year 42 and turns 43 during the season, and Kovalchuk starts the year 43 and turns 44 during the season. He’ll be 11 months and 19 days older when their contracts are up, so he goes beyond Luongo’s age precedent.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kovalchuk won’t be 44 until AFTER the season is over and the playoffs have started.

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 24, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh. That makes ALL the difference.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

We’ve had this statistical argument in other threads. Even if you wish to use the ages of all the other NHL players who have had careers of a substantial length (for the sake of argument, all non-goalies who played a minimum of 500 games, because that is the set our guest “Ubiquitous” used when posing his argument, it is not mathematically relevant to this situation. Ilya Kovalchuk is not those other players, and those other players as a composite are not Ilya Kovalchuk. To say Ilya Kovalchuk can’t play at the age of 44 because 0.58% of NHL players in the league’s history have played at that age is a flawed argument in a statistical and mathematical sense.

There are lots of reasons players retire, and lots of reasons players keep playing. In addition, the League itself will undergo change, and I imagine medicine, nutition, etc., will also have an impact. In all sports, we’ve seen the ability of players to perform at a higher level for longer periods of time and later into their lives as they take better care of themselves, as teams take more care of them, and because the monetary rewards for doing so have increased substantially.

Maybe Kovy retires at 38, and you turn out to be correct. Maybe he decides to keep coming back because the team he is on is still challenging for a Cup and he wants one or two more to cap his career. Maybe he comes back because he’s nearing an individual milestone he’d like to get. Maybe he comes back because he’s just had another kid three or four years prior, and wants to give the little tyke "a chance to see Daddy play in the NHL". Maybe his finances are a mess and he needs the money from continuing to play. Maybe there’s been expansion in the NHL to 60 teams, and the talent pool is so thin he’s still a Top 6 forward.

We don’t know what the future holds. But neither do you.

by acasser on Jul 24, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except I'm not even assuming .5% for those very reasons

I’m assuming a 10% chance that he plays at 43/44, which is well beyond what anyone should estimate based on all the available information. WAG alert I venture to say that’s at the p=.01 level of the estimate distribution. I’m already playing with the most generous probability possible.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Based on all what available information?

Have you recently returned from the future with evidence of how things will be then?

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Counselor:

Prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt. Give us facts, not assumptions (you know what they say about assuming). Give us language in the CBA that expressly prohibits what the Devils did, and not just parroting the line about circumvention that doesn’t actually define it.

Assumptions do not carry any water in this argument; for every assumption that he retires at 34 or 38 or 42, I can throw an assumption out there that he plays until 44, or 46, or 48. Probabilities are not valid predictors of future activity — if we all lived our lives solely by probability and let it dictate our actions, there’d be no casinos, no lottery, no sports wagering (in short, a much more boring world). Facts are the baseline here, and I don’t think you have any. The language of the CBA is the baseline here, and other than nebulous statements that say “don’t circumvent this” without defining that particular activity, you don’t have an argument here, either.

I’m assuming a 10% chance that he plays at 43/44, which is well beyond what anyone should estimate based on all the available information.

We had this argument in another thread. If you wish to look at things in a pure mathematical and statistical sense, you don’t have a data set to go on. Ilya Kovalchuk is not previous NHL players, and the League has not been locked in a sort of “stasis” where nothing changes. Many factors influence why a player can or cannot play in the league. Expansion increases the demand for players. Higher salaries make it more desirable for players to play longer, especially compared to the monies available in other walks of life. Medicine, conditioning, nutrition, etc., are vastly improved from generations past, which makes it possible for players to maintain themselves and play for longer periods of time at high levels of effectiveness. All of these drive your probabilities higher. However, as there is no pure algorithm dictating this, we can’t make statements such as “a 5% increase in salaries will extend playing careers by 1.09 seasons” or somesuch. We are dealing with unknowns, and any attempt to put a number or a percentage on them is silly because you can’t prove or disprove them.

Just because the event is unlikely doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t happen.

Just because the League wrote a lousy CBA (in regards to these loopholes) is no reason to stamp your feet and throw everything out. The rules may be flawed, they may even be stupid, but they are the rules both sides agreed to. Now they need to live up to them, or come to a mutual agreement as to how they should change.

by acasser on Jul 24, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s a good point you make about higher salaries – it’s a shame that ilya kovalchuk won’t be drawing one of those.

ilya kovalchuk is extraordinarily unlikely to be playing NHL hockey during the last season on his contract. anyone ignoring this or making sophistical arguments for why he might play is quite simply delusional. whether or not this can be proved doesn’t make a difference to what i’m saying now: he won’t play that last year. he won’t play the second to last year. he probably won’t play the third to last year.

by Triumph44 on Jul 25, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you think he's lying through his teeth when he says he plans to play at 44 then?

And if that’s the argument that the League gives the Arbitrator, the Arbitrator could ask for actual “evidence/Proof” that Kovy was LYING about what he said.

League(most especially Bettman) doesn’t have a leg to stand on here.

by BrockRocks on Jul 30, 2010 4:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

As I said, that would be my last attempt to show you the light.

My question is: Why is a St. Louis Blues fan so invested in this matter?

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like to argue stuff

I’m going to law school.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Studying to be a lawyer, huh?

Heard it was a lot of “studying” involved. And it’s not just “guilty” or “not guilty” either. So many other terms to learn.

Have fun, though. :)

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is bigger than the Devils or Kovy. And you would think an unbiased opinion would be welcomed. Seeing how the Devils, being right in the middle of this, are definitely biased in how they are viewing this situation.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Jul 24, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

you would think an unbiased opinion would be welcomed

One would be. Let us know when it shows up.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is bigger than the Devils or Kovy.

Very true. I think there are a lot of teams that are nervously watching this situation…. because if it goes to arbitration and the arbitrator sides with the League, that gives the NHL grounds to go after several contracts already approved but supposedly still under investigation (I know, the link is above in the main article, but this ought to save someone some scrolling back and forth). Should that happen, we’d have a royal mess on our hands — several teams with voided contracts, and grounds to whack them with the sanctions stick. Plus, what does that mean for the credibility of records, Stanley Cups, etc., considering how many of the players under investigation play for the teams that made runs the last few seasons?

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail, and something can be worked out between the League, the NHLPA, Kovalchuk’s camp, and the Devils. Tinker with the deal enough to rein in some of its excesses if you must, set down a firm list of ground rules (plus release it to all 30 teams and the media so everyone knows what they are) going forward, and then close the book on this whole chapter including the investigations and potential sanctions into the older contracts.

Finally, get to work on the new CBA and come up with a system not so easily exploited.

by acasser on Jul 24, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing will get settled except that Kovy and the NHLPA will win and get his contract passed.

I couldn’t care less what happens from then on just so long as Kovy is FINALLY Signed, Sealed, and Delivered to the NJ Devils and My TV Set for the Next 17 Years.

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have you ever watched any of the television judges, such as People’s Court, Judge Judy, Judge Joe Brown, etc., etc., etc.? That’s an arbitration process, taken down to its most basic (and stupid) level. While the facts certainly carry great weight, as does the law in question, an arbitrator has a fair amount of latitude and can apply concepts that would not fly in a courtroom.

We (ILWT readers and bloggers) are all reasonably certain that the Kovalchuk contract does not violate any terms in the CBA, but many of us will concede that the contract doesn’t particularly score well on the “smell test”, and that the precedents we cite (Pronger, Hossa, et al) don’t particularly score well there either. An arbitrator can rule against the Devils for that reason alone, by citing the probabilities that he would not play out the contract, by citing the possibility he’d jump ship to the KHL as soon as his salary bottoms out, etc.

The standard in an arbitration hearing is not “beyond a reasonable doubt” (as it is in criminal court) or “the preponderance of evidence” (as it is in civil court). Rather, said standard is whatever the arbitrator wishes it to be. I submit that a negotiated settlement is still in all parties’ best interests — the Devils undoubtedly want to get this done and move on, the NHLPA will want to flex some muscle ahead of the next CBA (especially with the union in disarray), and the NHL needs to prevent Pandora’s Box from opening (which it will if the contract is upheld as is, because other teams will ram through the same kinds of contracts).

I like the Devils’ chances in an arbitration hearing, but let’s not get cocky here. This isn’t defending a 6-0 lead with two minutes to play, this is defending a 3-2 Game 7 lead with two minutes to play. At the risk of bringing up bad memories, the latter scenario didn’t go so well for the franchise the last time.

by acasser on Jul 25, 2010 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Scarily enough acasser, you are absolutely right, which is why I think it will get settled outside of court, because its in every sides best interest to get it done that way.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 25, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

acasser, Judge Judy, Joe Brown....

Those people are a bunch of JOKES taking court cases and putting them on TV for the sole purpose of ENTERTAINMENT.

Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those “Cases” were faked just to drum up interest…..Judy and Brown do more to ACT for the Camera than they do in acting like Judges.

This case that’s going to the Arbitrator won’t be televised but will be judged FAIRLY and after seeing that Lou and company broke no rules of the CBA, he will rule in favor and that would be the end of that.

by BrockRocks on Jul 30, 2010 4:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would like an unbiased opinion, not the opinion of somebody countering mine with no facts to back it up.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

What’s funny is Behind the Net, From the RInk, Jewels from the Crown, others have all shown numbers, but you guys just dismiss them because you don’t want to see the facts they have shown. You only see what you wish. As I’ve said before, I can understand why you are so defensive – it’s your team that is on the line, so you only see the facts as you wish to see them. :)

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Jul 24, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which facts specifically point to where the contract violates the CBA? If any of those sites has shown them, I haven’t seen them.

I’ve seen a lot of related statistics about players not playing past this age or that, or how much of a difference there is between the Kovalchuk contract and other contracts, but nothing that shows exactly how the contract has been violated.

Our “defensiveness” stems from weekend-contract lawyers showing up at regular intervals with their latest theory about how the Devils/Kovalchuk/Grossman/Lou are cheating because they’ve subjectively decided that they are.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

They do seem to be coming out of the woodwork, don’t they?

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you really believe that the CBA is read that easily that other sites can all show irrefutable evidence that this contract will be voided?
You know what we want, that the rules that govern the NHL be applied to every single situation to every single team involving every single player. Everything is interpretation, and because it is interpretation, we feel the NHL has little to REJECT a contract with the language the NHL and NHLPA has agreed upon in the CBA.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 24, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve read several articles from those sites, none of which provide numbers that show the contract violated the CBA. I’m dismissive because it seems everybody who’s not a Devils fan is arguing against the contract because they just don’t want to see the Devils get Kovalchuk at a low cap hit, despite the fact that many of their teams (Philly, Chicago, Vancouver, Calgary) have exploited this lack of legislation, allowing all this to happen.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well said.

It goes back to the “unbiased” thing. With a few exceptions, most non-regular posters that have come here to talk about this situation have come with an opinion and no evidence to support it.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

What’s funny is Behind the Net, From the RInk, Jewels from the Crown, others have all shown numbers, but you guys just dismiss them because you don’t want to see the facts they have shown

Nice links. But I know what you’re talking about, hopefully those who read this do too.

Anyway, they’ve shown numbers about how unlikely or how extreme it is for Kovalchuk to play until he’s 44. This is not being disputed. They haven’t shown anywhere in the CBA where that isn’t allowed. That’s why the general reaction out of myself and others is “So what if it’s unlikely that he’ll play until he’s 44. Prove that this isn’t allowed in the CBA.”

So far, I haven’t gotten that proof and I don’t think I will because there’s no contract length limit on SPCs. The NHL tried to put that in and they failed per one of the CBA authors. If it’s in there, I’ll say so, but otherwise, I’m not believing that there are limits just based on “reasonable expectations” or whatever amorphous standard that isn’t even written down and approved upon by both league and union.

So this statement:

You only see what you wish. As I’ve said before, I can understand why you are so defensive – it’s your team that is on the line, so you only see the facts as you wish to see them. :)

isn’t true (and unnecessarily snarky). I’m not seeing only what I want to see, I’m only seeing that no proof has been brought forward yet. I’m not even being defensive, just frustrated that simple questions aren’t being answered by those who claim the rejection is valid.

I’ve read through the CBA. I’ve posted a link to it here and in the past two posts I’ve written. Show me where in the CBA it’s violated. If it is intent, then prove how there could be intent. These are perfectly reasonable questions to ask as I intend to get the truth; and you have a lot of nerve to say that this is being defensive or being narrowminded.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is it “nerve and narrowmindness”, John? Or is it just plain ignorance as to what’s Really being discussed?

The Focus seems to be on Age when it should be on Cap Circumvention.

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whats to say he even plays next year an injury could affect any contract if you read it that way. Sounds to me like your saying contract is bad cause maybe he won’t play the whole contract out. I doubt a maybe on behalf of the NHL would be grounds for the rejection to be upheld.

by KingHellfire on Jul 24, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

i am surprised you did not bring up 26.3, because that to me is where the NHL is hanging its hat.

Actually, I did.

As already explained, getting to 26.13 is a far more involved process. Article 26.15 provides a non-exhaustive list of examples. The Kovalchuk contract doesn’t meet those examples on it’s own, but it is a non-exhaustive list that’s really only there for reference as far as I can tell. Articles 26.3.(a) and 26.3.(b) basically define a broad range of circumvention by either a player, a player actor (e.g. an agent), a club, or a club actor (e.g. member of management). Article 26.4 just states that both the PA and NHL are subject to committing circumvention; 26.5 goes over the situation of circumvention involving someone who has yet to become a player; 26.6 forbids payment to agents; and 26.7 requires players and teams to properly disclose circumventions they are aware of in writing. Feel free to read all of that at your own leisure, though I will bring up a part of 26.3 in a little bit (See Update #2).

I just didn’t quote the whole thing due to it’s broadness. 26.2 actually defines an illicit act: undisclosed agreements. 26.3.(a) and (b) are vague and broad. In my own speculation, I gave reason to believe that the NHL’s issue (or “beef”) would have to do with an undisclosed agreement – which would be “a contract where parties have no intention of completing.” (Which I think is weak because that’s unprovable, not to mention there are no term limits on SPCs in Article 50)

So I quoted 26.2 and not 26.3.(a) and (b). But that shouldn’t be a problem since I provided a link to the CBA, and, well, you found it.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

john im just wondering. is there a way that weve seen so far that the league can factually prove that they are right at rejecting this contract?

by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 24, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't answer for John but

I just can’t see how the NHL can prove circumvention for this contract when past contracts have done(although to a slightly lesser degree) the same.

Besides, Lou followed the guidelines of the Flawed CBA. There is nothing illegal about the contract.

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow! Heck of a job John. Thank you very much for this.

I only want to add one point. Remember that, when we put this contract together, we had one of the authors of this very document there to tell us that the contract didn’t violate it. He knows every single thing in this CBA, and he thought he knew that the contract wasn’t in violation.

Why does that matter? I speculate that it points to one thing: that the NHL is claiming definitive evidence of circumvention based on some evidence of “undisclosed agreements,” per 26.2. If our expert said that everything about this contract met every requirement, the only thing the NHL could have for evidence is one of these undisclosed agreements that falls outside of what’s described in the document. I really don’t see how it could be anything else.

by Dr. Witticism on Jul 23, 2010 11:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I would like to add that I think this would be their basis for rejection, when it comes time to tell everyone why they did it. It may very well be the case that they don’t actually have this evidence. They know they don’t, the know th rejection will be cancelled in arbitration, and it’s all just posturing and politics, with complete knowledge that it is a completely false allegation/rejection

by Dr. Witticism on Jul 23, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

If there is evidence of actual "undisclosed agreements"

Buttman is going to be in serious hot water as a result. There better not be any backroom handshakes or whatever shady crap going on……that’s all I’ve got to say.

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Was thinking the same exact thing. Really Really nice job on this.

Its why I keep coming back to this site.

by NJDOhio on Jul 24, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

More speculation: The more I read about this, the more I think that he NHL has zero evidence. I think their intention with this whole thing is just to start the fight, not win it. They fully expect the PA to file a grievance and win, and that wold technically give every other GM the green light to do this. But if they drag it out as long as possible and make things as difficult as possible for the Devils, teams will think twice about giving a contract like this to someone else.

by Dr. Witticism on Jul 23, 2010 11:59 PM EDT reply actions  

one thing—-if the NHLPA wins a grievance, there is absolutely no reason why future contracts cant be 20 years, cant take people to 48 (chelios lasted that far, so in theory anyone can), imagine if kovys deal was actually 21 years 104.5 mil. This would be under a 5m cap hit! and have no effect on kovy, he still gets his 10/95. It will start to get absurd if the nhlpa wins, cause that proves there really is no limit at all. Look for Zdeno Chara (33) to sign a 15 year 45m dollar contract at some point before he becomes a free agent next summer structured something like this:
8-8-8-7-5-2.25-.525-.525-.525, etc.
imagine that. a 3m cap hit for a top defensemen getting paid 8m. And of course he wont mind, hes getting a 5 year 56m dollar deal taking him through his age 38 season. wow. it could really get crazy if the nhlpa wins this one

by Ahmad Bradshaw on Jul 24, 2010 12:01 AM EDT reply actions  

That’s another reason why I think that the nhl expects to lost in arbitration, but they want to just have the fight and make it as difficult as possible for the Devils. Teams will still be allowed to make these deals, but they might not want to after seeing just how hard th league tried to make things hard for the Devils.

An arbitrator isn’t in place, so who knows how long thy can drag it out. What if they somehow drag it out until two weeks before the seasons starts? And then Kovy’s contrract goes through and the Devs are over the cap with nowhere to move players? Well, if it’s going for that long, I’m sure Lou will shed players just to make sure there is room if/when it goes through. But what if he shed players, and it doesn’t go through? Then the Devils just gave away two or three good players, draft picks, and/or prospects just to shed salary

by Dr. Witticism on Jul 24, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes, but after the decision is made its final. If rejected their will be no more of these contracts, if accepted then their will be no limit—-in essence they can go 30 years…….if the nhlpa wins it is just confirmation to teams that they CAN make these deals

by Ahmad Bradshaw on Jul 24, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right, that’s what I’m trying to say. You’re right, if the PA wins, then they’re telling everyone they can make the deal. But if the NHL hadn’t rejected it in the first place, and has let the Hossa, Pronger, etc. contracts go, then they’re saying these deals can be made anyway.

If they drag this out and screw up as much of the Devils offseasons as possible, and if they use every single possible weapon to make things difficult for them, teams will think twice about making these deals even though they are allowed to.

The PA could win, but it won’t stop the league from rejecting the next contract, going to the arbitrator, and losing again. No matter how many times they reject a contract and lose at arbitration, they can still reject the next one and do it all over again.

by Dr. Witticism on Jul 24, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think if they lose this case they wont be able to reject any others, and regardless it would not be as difficult if both team and player knew they would win the grievance

by Ahmad Bradshaw on Jul 24, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the CBA that says that the cancelling of one contract rejection sets precedent for future contracts. The NHL can reject anything it wants, and just lose again and again.

It’s the same exact thing as frivolous lawsuits. You can be sued for anything and everything in this country, even when there’s no case. Eventually, it’s determined that there is no case and the suit is dismissed, but not before it has caused you great emotional and financial distress.

by Dr. Witticism on Jul 24, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

If they drag this out and screw up as much of the Devils offseasons as possible, and if they use every single possible weapon to make things difficult for them, teams will think twice about making these deals even though they are allowed to.

The funny thing is that it really hasn’t. The Devils can still make deals now. They have prospects available to fill in the current spots on the roster. The only thing this will mess up is that if the deal goes through, the Devils may have to scramble to dump salary without leverage. Still, the Devils’ offseason was largely done even prior to the announcement of the signing.

If anything, if the NHL doesn’t win here, then I want more teams to make these kinds of deals. So should the fans of other teams. If the owner or GM isn’t willing to take advantage of a system that will let them do this, then the fans should be irate.

For example: I wish I brought it up sooner but imagine if the Wild decided to put a short tail on Koivu’s contract instead of giving him an outrageous bonus for the last year of his deal. He’d get most of the money, same length, but a little more relief on the cap – enough for another low-salaried player. Instead, they actually increased salary every other year and so it’s $6.75 instead of something a little lower. It’s great that they locked up Koivu for that amount of money and the money may be justified, but they could have done it for a lower cap hit and missed an opportunity.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

From James Mirtle's twitter
My key point: How can an agent and team negotiate a deal that doesn’t circumvent the cap if what constitutes circumvention is unclear?

Maybe not completely related to what we’re talking about, but still a very interesting point.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 12:23 AM EDT reply actions  

It’s actually incredibly related to all of these posts.

It’s the one question that I can’t seem to get a straight answer out of from anyone who says this is a bad deal.

I’m so impressed that after the whole thing was rejected on Tuesday, I have yet to have someone say: “Here, John, this part of the CBA clearly states this is violation.” Instead, I just get a constant stream of how absurd it is or how unlikely it is for anyone to play when they are 44. Why is this so difficult? Do I need to use simpler words?
  
BTW, you can link to tweets. The URL is usually in the timestamp.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

because the CBA is written such that not all of the possible violations are covered – the CBA reserves the ability to find new violations, which is why 26.3 is so important. do i think the NHL will win on 26.3? i’m not sure – i think they have a chance to win, i don’t think it’s better than 50%, but it’s a chance. they have to demonstrate what the intention of the CBA is, and how this contract goes against that intention.

by Triumph44 on Jul 24, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

The intention of the CBA means nothing in litigation. It’s all about what’s written in the Agreement and what’s written in the contract. If the contract conforms to all the rules written in the Agreement, their is really not much more to argue here, the contract is legal and therefore should be approved.

Yes, article 26.3 forbids that an agreement (contract) has the intention of defeating or circumventing the provisions of the CBA. But Kovy’s contract does not have any intention of defeating any provisions of the CBA. Nowhere in the CBA does it say that a contract can’t be 17 years long, or be front-loaded, or last until a player is 44. You tell me specifically what part of the CBA the Kovy contract intends to circumvent and then i’ll admit that you have a legitimate argument. But until then you can keep attempting to undermine the legality of the contract with no real supporting evidence.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Intent matters VERY much

In fact it is written into the CBA that it is about intent, from 26.3 a)

is intended to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the
intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement,

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You obviously didn’t read my entire comment, even if intention means everything, the statement says that intending to circumvent the provision of this agreement is forbidden. If you can show me what part of the CBA the Kovy contract attempts to circumvent then i’ll tell you that you have a legitimate argument that could help the NHL win this case. Until then you got nothing.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

The intent of the contract!

The intent of the contract is to give themselves an overwhelmingly likely chance that Kovalchuk doesn’t play (at least) the final year of the deal, which means that the calculated AAV for the duration of the contract is lower than it actually would have been.

If he plays only 16 years, then the actual AAV would have been 6.345M and not the stated 6M. The Devils would have had more cap room than they should have for 16 straight years.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Prove that was the intent.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

They know that it is extremely unlikely that he plays his age 43 season

Therefore they know that there is an overwhelming chance that they will have gotten extra cap space. Even if that isn’t the sole intent*, that is a definite positive to the contract from their perspective.

*which I still haven’t seen any of you guys argue with any conviction that this is not the case….seriously why would you want to sign a 43 year old?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neither does one know if their house will still be standing when they sign a 30 year mortgage on it, but that doesn’t stop millions of people from doing it.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I want to frame this comment.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

The chance of something being unlikely and knowingly signing a contract that won’t be upheld are two different animals. I don’t see how saying a player might not play out his full contract holds little water. If so they could argue the Pronger deal or Hossa deal was setup because maybe they aren’t gonna play out whole contract. I think you would need more than just saying he won’t play full contract cause he will be 43.

by KingHellfire on Jul 24, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That isn’t proof… that’s a continuation of your speculative diatribe.

which I still haven’t seen any of you guys argue with any conviction that this is not the case

Lou himself, who was actually involved in the process, is confident that the deal does not violate the CBA. What further conviction do you require?

seriously why would you want to sign a 43 year old?

They’re not… they’re signing a 27 year old until he’s 44.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugggh

Why would you want to be on the hook for a 43/44 year old 17 years in the future?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because he’s a generational talent and there’s reason to believe he’ll continue to be worth the investment at that time?

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because he is one of the most dynamic offensive threats of the past 10 years!

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 24, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because he wanted a long-term deal, the Devils offered it to him, and he appreciates the number 17 on top of all that?

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats assuming. which again doesnt count. youre fighting a hopeless battle and you know it

by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 24, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's that word again "unlikely"....

CERTAINTY is required here which means EVIDENCE/PROOF that Kovy would not play at age 43; Proof that you, me, or ANYONE cannot provide because that’s just crystal ball stuff.

The League’s side of this case has so many holes, you’d think you were in some European Red Light district or something……lol.

by BrockRocks on Jul 30, 2010 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're not worth my time

I’m going to make one final attempt to make it clear to you that assumptions DO NOT MATTER.There have been several players who have made it to 43 years old, therefore it is possible. Your above argument doesn’t matter because Kovy might play all 17 years of his contract. The contract does nothing to circumvent the provisions set forth in the CBA. It conforms to all the rules and therefore is legal. Please, prove me wrong with written evidence, no more crying about the fact that he might not play until 44.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

You obviously have no experience in contract law

Reasonable assumptions, probabilities and intent matter a great deal.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I said, that would be my last attempt to show you the light.

My question is: Why is a St. Louis Blues fan so invested in this matter?

Are you still upset we took Stevens?

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't matter.

With all due respect, who he or she supports has nothing to do with this topic. Stick to the facts.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Play nice or don’t play all.

Likewise, Kovalchuk wouldn’t actually be 44 until the end of the final season of the contract since he was born in mid-April.

In any case, please prove intent if you’re going to accuse it. Just saying something is artificial or stating how old Kovalchuk would be is not proof. Either bring facts or don’t bring anything because your repetition of the same claims over and over is not advancing this discussion.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm bringing facts!

The fact is that there is an overwhelming chance that the Devils are going to be paying for a 16 year deal, but it is being calculated as a 17 year deal that has a lower AAV which gives them more cap room.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is not a fact that is an assumption.

Marc R.

by devilssan2 on Jul 24, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please provide the data showing how this is a fact.

Also, please define “an overwhelming chance” and show how an overwhelming chance = a fact.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay

http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/2010/7/19/1577199/how-many-50-goal-scorers-have-gone

Do you really disagree that it is likely that Kovalchuk does not play till he is 43/44 seeing as how very few players actually do?

Ignore everything else that has been said, just answer this one question: if you had to guess (you have to guess!), how likely is it that Kovalchuk plays till he is 43/44?

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jul 24, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

This article doesn't make your case

To cite:

Is Kovalchuk in the same league as those guys? Well, yes, he’s in the NHL! Sorry. Other than that, no, he’s not.

Kovalchuk is not those players. Those players are not Kovalchuk. You can’t use one to predict the others when this is not an apples-to-apples comparison.

As far as guessing and assuming, I’m not going to do that either. There’s no need to make a donkey out of either you or me.

by acasser on Jul 24, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously? That’s your evidence? That there is no history of about as small a sample size as ol’ Crisp-With-a-Lisp can narrow it down to to push his anti-Kovalchuk agenda playing past 43?

There is no correlation with goal scoring and longevity.

Do you really disagree that it is likely that Kovalchuk does not play till he is 43/44 seeing as how very few players actually do?

I think he has as much a chance as anyone, and, again, we don’t know what the future will bring in terms of technological advances or other contributing factors that could affect the probability either way.

Ignore everything else that has been said, just answer this one question: if you had to guess (you have to guess!), how likely is it that Kovalchuk plays till he is 43/44?

How does my guess matter? I’m not a doctor or a coach or an athletic trainer. Nor do I have any experience whatsoever with treating athletes or projecting their longevity.

The point is, if the chance is above 0.0%, there’s a chance and the deal can’t be shot down for not being possible.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no correlation with goal scoring and longevity.

Especially when you consider that for the longest time the player with the most career goals was also (and still is) the oldest player to ever play the game in the NHL.

Go Devils
Go Jets
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by FrankG929 on Jul 24, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great point.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, I just wrote an article that outlines how 100% of players who have a CH followed by a vowel and then either an L or a K in their last names from the past year play past the age of 44.

Vindication!

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got all excited untill I realized you didn’t actually write the article… I even went and looked for it…

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 24, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did. I definitively showed that a player’s name has as much bearing on how old he’ll be when he stops playing hockey as how many goals he’s scored in a previous year.

Here’s a link.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

My bad. That link should be to here.

Disclaimer: I didn’t actually write that article.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, there’s an overwhelming chance the Devils are paying for a 1 year deal, since the majority of NHL players retire before their 28th birthday.

You can say it’s exceedingly unlikely that the contract will be carried to term, but unless you can prove that Kovalchuk INTENDS to retire before the end of the contract, it’s not circumvention under the CBA.

Otherwise, any player who retires before the end of his contract is circumventing the cap.

by richer44 on Jul 24, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

What?

There’s no fact that this is a 16 year deal – it’s 17 years long. It’s been reported and registered with the PA as a 17 year deal. The length is 17 years long. Where in the world are you coming up with it being 16 year deal?

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

You hit the proverbial nail on the head John there has to be intent to not adhere to the signed contract.

by KingHellfire on Jul 24, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You obviously have no experience in contract law

And you do? I know you’re going to Law School and all but C’MON….

What he said makes sense. In a court of Law, ASSUMPTIONS mean nothing. Only evidence. And I don’t need to go to Law School to learn that. It’s common sense, you know? Proof beyond a reasonable doubt? The Nhl has no proof and therefore has no case.

And the Arbitrator will see that.

by BrockRocks on Jul 30, 2010 4:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I remember when the sport used to be about putting a puck in the net.

by st.pattysdaymassacre26 on Jul 24, 2010 2:46 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1 Ditto / +1 LOL

There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

by slackdog_rm on Jul 24, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t worry, there will be posts about actual hockey soon enough.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why are Kings fans so upset about this deal. Is it because their team didn’t make it?

"Don't worry about my cap" -Lou Lamoriello

by C.J. Richey on Jul 24, 2010 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Ever been to LA? They live for manufactured drama out there.

Just ignore them, they’ll go away.

Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.

by elesias on Jul 24, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I’ve said before, this subject is bigger than the Devils or Kovy.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Jul 24, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

The issue applies to the entire NHL for sure. But the seeming obsession (15 of 17 articles on the site involve Kovalchuk) of showing how ILWT is wrong, and how we are commentors are idiots, makes them more and more upset and think its funny that we try to educate ourselves on the probability of the contract remaining as is.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 24, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boundless Speculative Comment

I think why other fans are unhappy about this deal is because a lot of teams aren’t willing or able to spend the money able to compete with other teams. The assumption about the new CBA was that the salary cap both with a floor and a ceiling would provide some level of balance. That has happened to some degree, but the system is predicated on ownership that’s willing to spend money and management that’s willing to use said money. That’s not common and that didn’t change after 2005. It likely won’t ever change. So when a team uses the system to come up with something advantageous for them, it’s a common response to be angry since they didn’t expect the rules to be used in that way and (moreover) their team didn’t figure it out. This shouldn’t be a surprise since it was done multiple times by other teams.

Let me be frank(er): How many teams were seriously involved for Kovalchuk? Two LA and NJ. How many teams had at least $6 million in cap space (or $1 million + bonus cushion)? A lot more than 2. Why? With LA and NJ, they clearly have owners and GMs who are willing to spend. The Islanders may have made an exploratory call and I’m sure some other teams asked; but how come so many teams with space didn’t even just throw an offer – just to see whether they even had a shot?

Essentially: They’re hating the player, when they should be hating the game. This is indeed bigger than just NJ and Kovalchuk; it goes right to the heart of how effective the system is. If you feel the system should limit teams strictly, then you’re outraged and will demand changes. Me? As long as Lou’s the GM and ownership supports him, they can make the rules into whatever they want, I’m confident in New Jersey remaining a success.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Testify!

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 24, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

hence the name of the site

by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 24, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

All I have to say about all this :

I would be very surprised if the League found some way to win this in arbitration. Very Surprised.

I seriously do not see any legitimate, concrete angle that the Commissioner can go with to prove his case…..

I still say that Kovy gets his deal AS IS. 17 and 102.

by BrockRocks on Jul 24, 2010 9:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Arbitration is not a nonsense proceeding

Section 26.13 appears to hold a club accountable whether it intends a player contract to circumvent the salary cap or the contract simply has that effect.

Players themselves must be shown to intend such consequences as well.

But it’s pointless trying to gain ground with an arbitrator by pretending the deal with Kovy was not designed to get around the cap. EVERYONE — including everyone on this site — knows that the deal was designed to do precisely that. Some diehards will, no doubt, insist that Kovy intends to play out every minute of his 17-year term. They’ll point to Gordie Howe and Chris Chelios, among others, to demonstrate that guys play well into their forties and beyond.

Please. Arbitrators are not fools. They know as well as you and I that Howe and Chelios are exceptions, not the rule. If they’re like me, they likewise saw Howe in one of his late career games and know the same thing I do — that Howe was not so much a player as he was a media freak, meant to fill empty seats at arenas hurting for attendance. And neither Howe nor Chelios were playing their last five years for entry-level dollars.

The salary cap was a crucial component in the agreement that ended the disastrous lockout. Owners cried poorhouse to the players and forced them to comply with a semi-system of price fixing to keep their compensation down. Now things have changed. Clubs are willing to spend, and spend big, so long as they don’t get bitten by the very CBA clause they themselves insisted on having. And now we’re told that at the forthcoming negotiations the owners will argue to get the cap lowered further still.

So no matter what anyone says about this fuss, these front-loaded long-term deals — deals that we all know are put together for the sole reason of circumventing the salary cap — stink down to the bone. If you can sign a player to 17 years, why not 20? Why not 25? Why not until he reaches the age to collect social security? ALL THESE CONTRACTS ARE MEANT ONLY — THE WORD IS “ONLY” — TO CIRCUMVENT THE SALARY CAP. That’s the naked, unvarnished truth. Why lie about it?

The Kovy-Devils contract is the worst, the most obnoxious of the lot. But considering that Vancouver, Philly, Chicago, and Detroit worked up SPCs that run along the same lines, New Jersey fans are right to say, “Hey! Why start on us? These other guys are doing it?”

Frankly, I think that’s the most honest way to defend the Kovy-Devils deal. Point out those times where other teams have done the same thing and are still getting away with it. Then remind the arbitrator that, after having those precedents in view, Lou and Kovy were entitled to fashion an agreement on the same lines, and if Bettman or anybody else had any gripes, they should have made those gripes clear to the prospective contracting parties BEFORE the craziness started on July 1.

I hope no such arguments need ever be made. I’m a Kings fan who was actually happy that the Devils won the Kovy sweepstakes. I think you should have him. But considering all the facts and points of view and the possibility that this episode may turn into a real nightmare not just for you guys but for the whole league, try to re-negotiate the contract terms to a level where the NHL can certify the damned thing wiithout losing face. And do it fast.

Pleasde.

by yoshinny on Jul 24, 2010 10:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Arbitration isn't nonsense, yes, but you're referring to the wrong provision in this case.
Section 26.13 appears to hold a club accountable whether it intends a player contract to circumvent the salary cap or the contract simply has that effect.

Nope. Read 26.13 again; it regulates how arbitration is done after a joint discussion between parties involved fails to reconcile the issue (see 26.12), which comes after an investigation into the contract (see 26.10). It only holds a club accountable if the arbitration rules in favor of those claiming circumvention, which is 26.13©. I’ve quoted all of that in this post, in fact.

There’s been no news of an investigation and definitely no news of a joint discussion happening; so 26.13 isn’t applicable right now.

EVERYONE — including everyone on this site — knows that the deal was designed to do precisely that.

I don’t know that. So it can’t be everyone. I do know that such deals are valid per Article 50. If I am mistaken there, do show where in Article 50 this is not true.

They’ll point to Gordie Howe and Chris Chelios, among others, to demonstrate that guys play well into their forties and beyond.

You would only need one example to establish precedent. You would also need some actual evidence to prove intent, or make the case that Kovalchuk cannot possibly play until he’s 43 (at the start of the 2026-27 season he will be 43, he turns 44 at the end). Good luck with either.

Please. Arbitrators are not fools. They know as well as you and I that Howe and Chelios are exceptions, not the rule.

That doesn’t matter. You only need at least one to prove precedent. Nevermind that the CBA has no contract length limits in it or any age limits. The non-foolish arbitrator will either know that or be told that by those involved in the case.

Clubs are willing to spend, and spend big, so long as they don’t get bitten by the very CBA clause they themselves insisted on having. And now we’re told that at the forthcoming negotiations the owners will argue to get the cap lowered further still.

Really. Clubs are willing to spend? Then how come, according to CapGeek, there are 13 clubs with at least $10 million of cap space still available in late July, 3 teams who are currently below the cap floor in Atlanta, Colorado, and the Islanders? Los Angeles was the only one of which made serious attempts (as far as we know) to go after Kovalchuk. While I’m sure some teams figured they didn’t need Kovalchuk, you mean to tell me that in a NHL where only one out of 13 teams with loads of cap space didn’t even make a push for Kovalchuk that clubs are willing to spend and spend big?

Some are. Some aren’t. That’s why the system is what it is; not everyone buys in and so some suffer while others take advantage of what’s allowed.

So no matter what anyone says about this fuss, these front-loaded long-term deals — deals that we all know are put together for the sole reason of circumventing the salary cap — stink down to the bone.

Circumventing. You use this word, but you do not know what it means. How do these deals allow a team to surpass the salary cap ceiling, or a player to surpass the maximum player salary at the time of signing? As far as I can tell, the Lightning, Red Wings, Flyers, Blackhawks, and Canucks (assuming I didn’t forget any other teams) all have deals like this on the books and they are still required to be under the cap ceiling for the season; and the players with said deals all have max. player salaries within the limits defined from that season.

 They aren’t circumventing anything; and neither is this deal with the Devils. That’s why I don’t agree to the term, I don’t agree that they stink (it’s not like those deals prevented the Devils from making signings this summer, for example), and I don’t agree with your assumption of “we all know.” No, we don’t. Prove it. If it’s so obvious to everyone, it shouldn’t be difficult, now should it?

If you can sign a player to 17 years, why not 20? Why not 25? Why not until he reaches the age to collect social security?

Good questions that I already answered in this post. But I’ll repeat it. Given that Article 50 has no contract length limits, you can do that. Why don’t the Kings sign Drew Doughty to 20 years if he’s willing to accept such a deal? I would have no problem with it, and neither would the CBA.

ALL THESE CONTRACTS ARE MEANT ONLY — THE WORD IS "ONLY" — TO CIRCUMVENT THE SALARY CAP. That’s the naked, unvarnished truth. Why lie about it?

Who’s lying? Who’s misleading who? I’ve went through Article 50 as well as Articles 11 and 26 (this very post you’re commenting on), and I don’t agree that this is the case at all. I don’t have any knowledge I’m holding back or ignoring to make a point. I’ve quoted the relevant parts of the CBA that lead me to my assertions that, no, it’s not at all clear that there’s any circumvention going on. Not with this deal, the Pronger deal, the Hossa deal, the Luongo deal, the Zetterberg deal, or the Lecavalier deal.

As an aside, just to help you out, typing anything in all capital letters doesn’t make your point any stronger – be it on the Internet or in a letter.

As a non-aside, I really don’t appreciate being called a liar without any evidence to back it up. Most people don’t. Consider that another lesson to keep in mind be it here, on other sites, or life in general.

The Kovy-Devils contract is the worst, the most obnoxious of the lot. But considering that Vancouver, Philly, Chicago, and Detroit worked up SPCs that run along the same lines, New Jersey fans are right to say, "Hey! Why start on us? These other guys are doing it?"

They are also right to say, “What part of the CBA does this contract (and those contracts) violate?” That’s what I’ve been asking and yet I disappointingly keep conjecture like this instead of facts.

Frankly, I think that’s the most honest way to defend the Kovy-Devils deal. Point out those times where other teams have done the same thing and are still getting away with it. Then remind the arbitrator that, after having those precedents in view, Lou and Kovy were entitled to fashion an agreement on the same lines, and if Bettman or anybody else had any gripes, they should have made those gripes clear to the prospective contracting parties BEFORE the craziness started on July 1.

That’s a fair point. It would also be honest to say: “There’s nothing in Article 50 this violates.” “The Devils are still subject to the same Upper Limit as everyone else” “If you’re going to accuse the Devils and/or Kovalchuk of intent, then please provide your proof.”

Moreover, those gripes were actually brought up during the CBA talks in 2005. Per Ian Pulver via this article in the National Post, the NHL wanted contract length limits in the CBA. They failed to get them in negotiations with the PA, so they aren’t there. It’s like I keep saying: the NHL and/or PA has no one to blame but themselves for creating a system that allows long-term deals that can be front- or back-loaded.

I hope no such arguments need ever be made.

I guess you’re hoping the PA doesn’t file a grievance then? Because said arguments would come up if the PA does file one, and procedings go ahead per Article 11.6.(a) (and not 26.13), which I also quoted in this post at length. Wait, guess not:

But considering all the facts and points of view and the possibility that this episode may turn into a real nightmare not just for you guys but for the whole league, try to re-negotiate the contract terms to a level where the NHL can certify the damned thing wiithout losing face. And do it fast.

Why? This deal doesn’t violate the CBA and both parties agreed to it. Why should the Devils change because the NHL doesn’t like their own CBA that they wrote and agreed upon? Especially when other teams did the same thing? If anything, more teams should do what the Devils are doing. Imagine making Doughty a King for life. I mean, he’s this good now, do you really want to see him at risk for an offer sheet or free agency later when he’s even better? I wouldn’t, and I’m sure Dean Lombardi is thinking the same thing.

Speaking of thinking, I would suggest thinking about providing actual facts instead of relying on conjecture and whatever “EVERYONE” thinks. Otherwise, not many here will think to read your comments much less respond to them in a detailed fashion as I did here.

The CBA is available online, I’ve even linked to it in this post, read it for yourself and come up with your own take. That’s what I did and that’s how I came to the conclusions in these posts on Article 50 and Articles 11 and 26 (this very post you’re commenting on). Consider taking a deep breath, first, though.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 24, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope. Read 26.13 again; it regulates how arbitration is done after a joint discussion between parties involved fails to reconcile the issue (see 26.12), which comes after an investigation into the contract (see 26.10). It only holds a club accountable if the arbitration rules in favor of those claiming circumvention, which is 26.13©. I’ve quoted all of that in this post, in fact.

You are correct. It was my typographical error that caused the confusion. I was referring to Section 26.3. In that section the responsibilities of the Club and the Player are different. Subdivision (a) specifies that Clubs cannot engage in certain conduct that is intended to OR has the effect of circumventing not only the provisions of the CBA but also the “intention of the parties” to the CBA. Subdivision (b) specifies that Players are likewise not to engage in the same conduct. However, in the case of Players it is not enough that they intend such a result. It must also be shown that such an effect has occurred. The crucial distinction between subdivisions (a) and (b) is that the word AND appears in (b) where OR is set out in (a). Thus Clubs are held to a higher standard than Players under Section 26.3. In the case of Clubs, showing the “intention” to circumvent is sufficient by itself, or showing the effect of circumvention is alone sufficient.

Forgive me for using capital letters here. I’m not trying to bludgeon you into paying attention. I’m merely using a grammatical tool that I believe is more convenient for the reader than simple quotation marks.

In any event, please observe that the CBA does not confine itself to violations of expressly enumerated provisions of Section 50 as if it were a criminal statute. It explicitly expands the range of investigative and arbitrable matter to include the circumvention of the “intention of the parties”, and a team’s payroll range is among the listed areas where the parties’ intention is relevant.

The CBA permits the admission into evidence of material — an investigator’s report, for example — that is not usually admissible in a court of law. If this case winds up in arbitration the CBA is going to be construed, so far as I’m aware, for the first time. Hence, the variety of prospective admissible material — just to show the “intention of the parties” — will be considerable.

Who’s lying? Who’s misleading who? I’ve went through Article 50 as well as Articles 11 and 26 (this very post you’re commenting on), and I don’t agree that this is the case at all. I don’t have any knowledge I’m holding back or ignoring to make a point. I’ve quoted the relevant parts of the CBA that lead me to my assertions that, no, it’s not at all clear that there’s any circumvention going on. Not with this deal, the Pronger deal, the Hossa deal, the Luongo deal, the Zetterberg deal, or the Lecavalier deal.

Didn’t you post an article in which you say that there’s no express prohibition against a player’s contract term being 100,000 years?

Why, then, prevent any contract from having so long a term? It surely guarantees a lifetime of security to the player and has a decidedly positive affect on reducing a team’s cap hit. What’s the harm if there’s no “express limitation” in the CBA? In fact, one can argue that prohibiting such long-term deals violates our laws against age discrimination.

Is it really necessary for me to argue this issue with you? You know that at some point — we won’t decide precisely where that point is — at some point the duration of a contract, and its duration alone, makes it suspect. And of what should it be suspected? Simply put, of trying to circumvent the salary cap restrictions.

I won’t do you the injustice of attributing to you a willingness to defend a contract with, say, a fifty-year term, simply because there are no express restrictions against that time period in the CBA. It is clear to anyone who reads the appropriate provisions that the intention of the parties to the CBA — not simply the express provisions of the salary cap sections — but the intention of the parties, owners and players, furnishes ample ground for challenging the Kovy-Devils contract.

If it is your genuine, your honest belief that neither the Devils nor Kovy had any intention to get around the strictures of the salary cap in their 17-year, front-loaded deal, all I can say is I disagree with you — disagree profoundly. I don’t feel the need to offer proof of their “evil” intentions, as if I were some prosecutor anxious to convict them. I already explained that I want Kovy and the Devils to marry in peace. But an investigator may find the proof in a casual e-mail or phone mail message or memo. All these items may be discovered and offered into evidence.

And please remember that the standard of proof in arbitration proceedings is not “beyond a reasonable doubt”. It may be as high as “clear and convincing evidence” or as low as a mere “preponderance of the evidence”. So long as he’s not corrupt or abusing his discretion, an arbitrator is entitled to draw whatever inferences he chooses from the evidence before him. He may rely heavily on items that you would scoff at. And he is not confined here to deciding whether there has been a violation of any express provision of Section 50. He’s entitled to come to his own conclusions about the intention not only of the Devils and Kovy, but also about the intention of the parties to the CBA.

Much of your argument here goes to the weight of the evidence, not to its admissibility. As I note several times — and as the CBA expressly provides — a tremendous amount of material may be introduced at an arbitration proceeding that could never find its way into a court of law or equity. Once again, I don’t care if I convince you or not. You are a Devils fan and may, no doubt, remain skeptical of any interpretation of the facts that suggests what you don’t want it to suggest. It’s not a matter of me calling you a liar. But you are interested in the outcome in a way a neutral arbitrator is not. You speak not as an impartial analyst, but as an advocate.

Because of this you hunger to find a “precedent” in the length of Howe’s or Chelios’ careers. You might observe, however, that the overwhelming mass of “precedent” is against such nonsense. What is the usual age of retirement for wingers? For every Lemieux who has scratched his way into his forties and remains in the league, there are hundreds who’ve retired or been forced into retirement. And how many of those with any longevity have played their final five years at entry level salaries? If you admit evidence of one type of precedent, you must admit evidence of the other. (Incidentally, arbitrators are mortal men, however sacred and noble their function may be. They can’t help but bring their own prejudices into whatever proceeding they preside over. Check out the web-polls to see what percentage of people outside New Jersey truly believe Kovy will play the entirety of his contract. You can fuss and crab all you want about “proof” and “precedent”, but arbitrators act in the real world, not in some rarefied atmosphere where such collateral matters don’t affect them.)

We do know that the presence of the salary cap did have some effect on the negotiations. The CBA was definitely in everybody’s mind while determining what compensation was to be paid in the first two years, in calculating the step-down percentages in the final years, and in determining the maximum pay-out of any single year. I don’t think I’m being unjust or unreasonable when I say that Lou and Grossman not only pondered those issues, but also issues pertaining directly to the salary cap during the course of their negotiations.

I’ve told you that I personally don’t believe the Devils and Kovy should be punished for doing what other teams are doing. I might feel different if Bettman had made some sincere effort to notify GMs by July 1 that nothing like the Philly or Chicago hanky-panky would be tolerated. To my knowledge he did not.

But you must understand that finding a “circumvention” of Section 50 is not the be-all and end-all of any arbitration process. Section 26.3 also deals with a player contract that has the effect of circumventing the “intention of the parties” to the CBA. A Club’s own intentions have nothing to do with whether such a circumvention is found. All an arbitrator need find against the Devils is that the contract has the effect of circumventing the intention of the parties to the CBA. To find against Kovy, however, the arbitrator must also find that he intended that effect.

Can you see now why the Devils did not file a grievance? Why it’s being left to the NHLPA? If you can’t, and somehow still believe that this matter is some sort of factual slam-dunk, then at best you’re disingenuous, and at worst, you’re deluding yourself.

I truly hope Kovy and the Devils work their way through this without any kind of arbitration proceeding. Such a proceeding will crucify negotiations among other teams.

So once again, I say to Kovy and Lou — PLEASE!!

(Sorry about the capitalization. It’s not meant to offend, but to exhibit the depth of my feeling.)

 

by yoshinny on Jul 25, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

With all due respect, you’ve written a whole lot and said very, very little other than “Well, I just don’t agree.”

Where’s the facts? Where in the CBA a team can’t offer a contract of a certain length beyond one year? If you think Article 26.3 is being violated, then where is there intent to circumvent the upper limit of the club or maximum player salary (That’s important because that was what the contract was rejected under. Those two areas are defined by Article 50.)? If you’re going to repeat that the contract has a tail, then how are other contracts that have this are OK but this one is not?

Yoshinny, I am not asking you to raise the dead, I am asking you simple questions that require proof. Calling me disingenuous or delusional because you don’t have anything to back up your claims aren’t answers. Maybe arbitrators may not care, but I’m not an arbitrator. I’m looking at this from the perspective of, “This was a rejected contract, it was rejected because it violated something in the CBA, what did it violate?” And so far, I’ve found nothing to actually answer that question definitively neither from own reading of the CBA or the rants of outsiders whose arguments have no backing and are ultimately a waste of time for all who read them. I’m not interested in opinion or conjecture anymore, I want proof.

So, where are the facts?

(P.S. And the Devils can’t file any grieveance, if you read the CBA or even this very post, you’d know that only the PA can do that in this situation. In fact, did you even read this very post? If not, why should I or anyone else who has bother with what you have to say?)

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 25, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let us both at least acknowledge that the issue is a complex one. And if my post is long, I refer you to your own apologies about the length of your article.

The CBA has not been formally construed in any court of law and, while courts do tend to support contracts that mandate arbitration procedures, this is still uncharted territory. Since the “parties” to the CBA are the NHL and the PA, it is still possible — though I don’t know how likely — that an individual player or an individual club may be permitted access to a court of equity where declaratory relief or specific performance may be granted. I inelegantly used the expression “file a grievance” instead of “file an action” to make matters simpler.

It has been your position that nothing in Section 50 prohibits this player contract, that “circumvention” cannot be established unless there’s a clear provision that limits the term of a contract or prevents this sort of apportionment of compensation. You insist that you don’t want conjecture, you want proof. What sort of proof will satisfy you? A videotape of Kovy and Lou declaring that they pulled one over on the league? An e-mail that confesses a scheme to get around the salary cap? It’s rare that such smoking guns pop up.

What I was trying to explain in my last post is that the standards of proof upon which you personally rely are not those followed by a system arbitrator. Circumstantial evidence is quite as powerful as direct evidence, and 26.13 (b) also appears to shift the burden of proof to the PA on a crucial point.

That point is this:

On the face of the Kovy-Devils deal some provisions are perfectly reasonable. I think we can assume without argument that when the highest yearly payments were set out the parties didn’t want to violate the 20% rule. There’s no shame in that. The rule was laid out so that it would be obeyed. By the same token the payments in years 11 to 12 (?), which drop precipitously, are designed to comply with the 50% rule. There’s nothing wrong with that. There’s likewise nothing intrinsically wrong with frontloading annual payments. But it makes no sense to believe that Lou and Grossman would draft provisions that comply with those other provisions, yet that they’d pay no attention to provisions meant to “comply” with the salary cap. You and I both know that the salary cap was very much in their minds.

So far, an arbitrator would have no reason to wonder. But when he arrives at his review of the last five years of the longest player contract in league history, he may well ponder what is likely to happen with a player who will be entering his forties — unlike nearly every other left wing — and who is expected to risk injury over a probably less productive part of his career, and who is doing it for compensation that is — let’s be honest about it — chump change compared with the rest of his deal.

On this issue the arbitrator doesn’t even need circumstantial evidence. He is expressly entitled to make a finding that those five years of Kovy’s contract cannot be “reasonably explained” as anything other than an effort to get around the salary cap.

On this point what you think is irrelevant. It’s not a matter of me and you fussing. It’s a matter of what an arbitrator may find — even though the only evidence in front of him is the Kovy-Devils contract and the fact that nothing quite as egregious has ever been done before — no, not even for Pronger, for Hossa, for Luongo.

Personally, I can’t help but believe that all those contracts were structured as they are for the purpose of getting around the salary cap. You can believe what you want about the matter. But if you’re convinced that Kovy and Lou have done nothing wrong, it’s inevitable by your thinking that Vancouver, Philly, and Chicago have done nothing wrong either.

Imagine yourself not simply sitting back and shooting spitballs at what others are saying, relying on the assurance that there’s no specific part of Section 50 that was violated. Instead, put yourself into the shoes of a lawyer trying to provide a reasonable explanation for the payroll structure of the contract’s last, say, 7 years, trying to make that “explanation” to an arbitrator who is perfectly entitled to believe the same thing that I, the NHL, and most people already believe — that those final 7 years don’t make a lotta sense unless they were tacked on just to bypass the salary cap.

You’ve been playing a game of show-me. Now it’s time for your recitation: Why are those final contract years being paid at so low a price unless Kovy’s not expected to play them? Or unless New Jersey wants a cheap buy-out for a deal it doesn’t expect to go the full term?

Why would Kovy bother to say in a press conference that he intends to play the full 17 years unless he and Grossman and Lou knew that so many, many people would not believe it?

I keep on telling you that I want the deal with Kovy and NJ to go through. Believe me, I am sympathetic to your team’s position. But I am also aware of the extent to which mere suspicion can produce adverse rulings in arbitration cases.

An arbitrator is already entitled to make a finding against the deal just by looking at the terms of the contract itself. That is the “law” expressed by 26.13(b). So your protestations of proof, proof, proof are already satisfied.

So now I’ll ask you — just one SOB to another — to answer this question directly and honestly, without the pretense that you refuse to come to any conclusions in the absence of definitive evidence. We’re talking belief now, just naked, one-on-one belief — Do you really believe that the final 7 years of the Kovy deal were not meant to get that contract around the salary cap?

by yoshinny on Jul 25, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I will answer for me, and what I believe is the majority belief, is not what the intent of the contract is, but rather, that this contract, as it stands, should not and cannot be rejected at this time before a new CBA is ratified to exclude this type of deal, because there is precedence that shows ‘perceived circumvention’ in other accepted deals.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 25, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Personally, I can’t help but believe that all those contracts were structured as they are for the purpose of getting around the salary cap. You can believe what you want about the matter. But if you’re convinced that Kovy and Lou have done nothing wrong, it’s inevitable by your thinking that Vancouver, Philly, and Chicago have done nothing wrong either.

If the provisions of calculating the cap include the maximum annual salary and the 50% rule, both of which this contract complies with, exactly what is circumvented? What has indeed happened is that the salary cap has been manipulated within the rules, by Lou, Grossman, Kovy, and whomever else was involved.

Do you really believe that the final 7 years of the Kovy deal were not meant to get that contract around the salary cap?

If the rules allow for this, nothing to “get around.” Sure, it serves to reduce the cap hit, but within the rules. As I’ve said a number of times in a number of ways, any non-constant salary in a contract serves to reduce the salary cap. As long as those reductions of the salary cap vs. maximum salary do so within the guidelines in the CBA, nothing is circumvented. If either the maximum salary or 50% rule are broken, then the salary cap is circumvented. If you play within the rules, you can’t circumvent anything.

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by FrankG929 on Jul 25, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

What has indeed happened is that the salary cap has been manipulated within the rules, by Lou, Grossman, Kovy, and whomever else was involved.

I certainly agree that manipulation has occurred. If the Devils intended that manipulation to get the contract around the “intention of the parties” to the CBA as to the salary cap, OR if that manipulation “has the effect” of getting the contract around the cap, as manifested by the “intention of the parties” to the CBA, the NHL may reject the contract — which rejection can trigger a wide variety of possible consequences. Among those consequences, ultimately, is having the matter decided by an arbitrator.

If the rules allow for this, nothing to "get around."

Let’s be clear what we’re talking about. If the rules allow a Club and a Player to contract for 17 years, without limitation, they can as easily be construed to allow a Club and a Player to contract for 30 years, or more. Assume that Kovy’s contract is, in fact, for a 30-year term. Is it technically prohibited by express language in Section 50? No.

Take the final 7 years of the current contract and spread the payroll expense over what would be the final 20 years of a 30-year deal. And, of course, average the total $102 – mil contract price over 30 years — making a cap hit of $3.4 – mil.

Now, the facts are the same — insofar as the CBA provisions are concerned — and one could easily say that Lou and Kovy “manipulated” everything “within” the rules.

But would anyone honorably say that the “intention of the parties” to the CBA is not being bypassed by such an arrangement?

That 30-year deal is preposterous alongside Kovy’s 17-year deal. But to many people — and very publicly to the league — Kovy’s 17-year deal is preposterous alongside what the NHL has thus far tolerated.

So what we’re dealing with here is a matter of degree. There is some point — and we can dispute precisely where that point ought to be — there is some point where such manipulation is either intended to, or has the effect of, circumventing the original intention of the parties who agreed to the CBA salary cap. And an arbitrator is entitled to find such to be the case by the simple expedient of reviewing the terms on the face of the SPC itself.

If you play within the rules, you can’t circumvent anything.

But remember that the rules include more than express terms. They likewise include “the intention of the parties” — that is, the original intention of the NHL and the NHLPA.

What is the intention of the parties as to the salary cap? My recollection is that it was the owners who fought for it and made it a condition of ending the lockout. The players themselves had no desire to put a limit on what they could be paid. The owners were the ones who demanded such a cap because, so they said, they were losing money or making too little to pay the players what they wanted. So the purpose of the cap was to keep the league financially stable, to permit all teams to compete for star players because no team would have more cap room than the others to corner the talent market, and to sustain something like parity over the course of the season.

Now we have teams who — in actual dollars, not fictitious salary cap dollars — are paying more in annual compensation than their cap limits. There’s no question that, once Lou reduces the current Devils overage of team salary, he’ll still be paying — in actual, out-of-pocket, coin of the realm — millions more per season than the current $59.4 – mil limit.

It’s one thing to say that other teams could have bid for Kovy because they have more cap room available than NJ does. But cap room is meaningless if you don’t have the money to fill it.

Like I’ve said in every post I’ve made on this site, I hope Kovy and NJ work this out and work it out without this matter ever going to an arbitration. But if they do wind up in front of an arbitrator, this matter will not be as easy to decide as you think it will be. To circumvent does not mean only to defraud. Fraud has nothing to do with what the league’s objection is. Circumvent means to bypass or get around or evade.

In my mind there is no question that the Devils-Kovy deal “has the effect” of “bypassing” the “intention of the parties” with respect to Section 50. Whether Kovy and the Devils “intended” their SPC to do so is an another matter.

But the range of what can go before an arbitrator — should the case proceed that far — is much broader and more dangerous than you are presently prepared to handle.

by yoshinny on Jul 25, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

An arbitrator is already entitled to make a finding against the deal just by looking at the terms of the contract itself. That is the "law" expressed by 26.13(b). So your protestations of proof, proof, proof are already satisfied.

Read this very post or the CBA itself; and you will see that this situation is not going through the processes per the CBA that will take this to an arbitration per 26.13.(b). There are many other things that must happen before 26.13 is even applicable to this situation. The processes ongoing are per 11.6.(a). On a personal note, I’m impressed that you’re commenting on a post that goes out and specifies the difference between the two and you haven’t realized this yet.

And while not specifically stated in Article 11.6; the burden of proof could easily be on the accuser.

Why are those final contract years being paid at so low a price unless Kovy’s not expected to play them?

Because players decline as they get older and they shouldn’t be paid so much money. Common occurrence around the league.

Or unless New Jersey wants a cheap buy-out for a deal it doesn’t expect to go the full term?

You do know a buy-out would leave extra money sunk in future years, right?

Why would Kovy bother to say in a press conference that he intends to play the full 17 years unless he and Grossman and Lou knew that so many, many people would not believe it?

To establish his commitment to the team.

Do you really believe that the final 7 years of the Kovy deal were not meant to get that contract around the salary cap?

I do not think the final 7 years of the deal are not meant to get around the cap because the contract is within the rules defined in the CBA per Article 50, especially the Upper Limit and the Maximum Player Salary.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 25, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Buyout of the last 6 seasons cap hit, assuming a 6/30/2021 buyout, from capgeek.

ILYA KOVALCHUK BUYOUT FROM CAPGEEK.COM
2021-2022: $5,444,444
2022-2023: $5,644,444
2023-2024: $5,644,444
2024-2025: $5,644,444
2025-2026: $5,644,444
2026-2027: $5,644,444
2027-2028: $194,444
2028-2029: $194,444
2029-2030: $194,444
2030-2031: $194,444
2031-2032: $194,444
2032-2033: $194,444

An early buyout, IMHO, would be amazingly stupid.

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by FrankG929 on Jul 25, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are many other things that must happen before 26.13 is even applicable to this situation. The processes ongoing are per 11.6.(a). On a personal note, I’m impressed that you’re commenting on a post that goes out and specifies the difference between the two and you haven’t realized this yet.

You’re the one who’s continually asking for proof. Yet unless and until the PA files its grievance all issues of proof are wholly unnecessary. Proof only matters — in an ultimate sense — when you have a tribunal that judges it. In this case the final judge is the arbitrator.

If I’ve jumped the gun from one contractual provision to another, I’ve done no more than you’ve been doing.

In fact, I’m the one who keeps harping that Kovy and the Devils should rework their deal so the matter never does go before an arbitrator. I’d be glad to see this case ended during any one of the various intervening proceedings that are available between now and a formal arbitration hearing.

But since you persist in constructing your arguments around proof and construction of contract terms — precisely the matters that would go before an arbitrator — I see no reason why I shouldn’t be permitted to do the same.

Because players decline as they get older and they shouldn’t be paid so much money. Common occurrence around the league.

Man, I’m not gonna argue with you there. Exactly how many 44-year-old left wings are out there now, making entry-level money?

To establish his commitment to the team.

Saying he always intended to play for the Devils wasn’t enough to get that point across?

You can believe what you like about his public statement. It is, after all, a subject upon which people may hold different opinions. Don’t take it hard if your particular interpretation is not universally followed outside New Jersey.

I do not think the final 7 years of the deal are not meant to get around the cap because the contract is within the rules defined in the CBA per Article 50, especially the Upper Limit and the Maximum Player Salary.

Your double negative threw me for a moment. I realize that you actually mean the opposite of what you typed out. (See how easy it is to mis-type something?)

You keep begging the question. You frame your understanding of the issue in a way that assumes the issue is already decided according to your principles. But that’s not the case. If things were as easy as you claim they are, the NHL would never have rejected the SPC. The NHL may be villainous. It may even, as I’ve read here, have it in for the Devils. But it’s not stupid.

Until you realize the simple, ugly truth that the league does have a conscionable basis for rejecting the deal, you’ll continue to miss all those many interim chances that the CBA provides for resolving the matter. Your particular kind of blinders — the kind that keep you from appreciating the danger threatened by an opposing argument — is just what will drive this case to an arbitration hearing.

by yoshinny on Jul 25, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

You frame your understanding of the issue in a way that assumes the issue is already decided according to your principles.

Nope. I’m framing my understanding of the issue based on the CBA that’s readily available for anyone to read.

Your particular kind of blinders — the kind that keep you from appreciating the danger threatened by an opposing argument — is just what will drive this case to an arbitration hearing.

If you read this post, you’d know about Article 11.6 and you’d know that the only reason why it’s going to arbitration is if the NHLPA filed a grievance. Which they did today.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 26, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you read this post, you’d know about Article 11.6 and you’d know that the only reason why it’s going to arbitration is if the NHLPA filed a grievance. Which they did today.

Settlement discussions only have value when both sides know they have something to lose — that they must be willing to bend in order to close a deal.

Your show-me attitude is not meant to settle. It’s meant for fighting. Fighting means a trial (ore arbitration).

That approach may win at arbitration. It’s coherent, combative, and I agree with some of it.

But when I describe what an arbitrator can do under Section 26.13, you kept answering we’re not at Section 26.13 yet. We’re still in 11.6 territory.
And all the time you were telling me that I was premature, that the CBA provides many alternative proceedings before any arbitration takes place — all that time you were arguing as if you were addressing an arbitrator.

There’s no other reason why you made such a pitch. Did you think Bettman was reading it and suddenly cried out, “My God! Fischer knows it all. How can we possibly hope to win this thing against so fearsome and obvious an argument?”

No. Your every post is a final argument to an arbitrator. You’re already wa-a-ay past 11.6. You were way past all those CBA “preliminary options” when you started writing.

I just did the same. But I took account of what you keep refusing to — that an arbitrator may rule against the NHLPA, not because he’s a fool who can’t see the obvious, but because he sees the obvious that, for reasons of team love, you can’t, or won’t, see.

I’m framing my understanding of the issue based on the CBA that’s readily available for anyone to read.

Your all-or-nothing attitude is precisely the kind of approach that does not work in sophisticated settlement negotiations.

You simply do not understand that your own point of view — your own interpretation of the CBA, of the SPC, of the surrounding facts — can be legitimately and logically disputed by someone else. You do not take account of the possibility that someone exercising honest judgment can arrive at a conclusion other than your own.

What I said above is certainly accurate: Throughout all this, you have not been an impartial analyst, seeking to explain and enlighten.

Instead, you’ve been an advocate, selling an argument.

I don’t blame your passion. But it has colored your ability to see things clearly.

Just because you have a coherent argument that satisfies you and many other Devils fans does not mean that argument will prevail at a proceeding where contradictory, but equally coherent, arguments can be made.

And once again, like I keep on telling you, I hope the Devils and Kovy win this fight.

But if you enter the ring thinking your adversary is just some mean-minded louse that only a fool would believe, you’re gonna be fighting with one wing tied behind your back.

by yoshinny on Jul 26, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

In summary: You have no evidence or facts; ergo you’ve said a whole bunch of nothing except for a number of assumptions about my viewpoints and how I got there.

I’ve repeated this over and over and it’s not going to change. Show me where in the CBA that I have been mistaken in the post I’ve written so much and you apparently read so little. That should not be difficult. If you earnestly believe 11.6 isn’t applicable then you should be able to prove it. That you haven’t is telling.

Here’s a tip for future commenting on this or any other site: Read the post you’re commenting on first. So far, I don’t think you have.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
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by John Fischer on Jul 27, 2010 7:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

And here’s a tip for you: Read the post before you undertake to dispute it.

I never said that I believe — earnestly or otherwise — that 11.6 isn’t applicable. But as it does mention “circumvention” as a basis for the league rejecting an SPC, and as arbitration is among the possible outcomes of such a rejection, I did the same thing you did — I leaped from that section to Section 26.3 (mistyped as 26.13), which discusses circumvention by Clubs and Players.

Your article quotes a passage from 26.3 — in fact you quote several passages at large from Article 26 of the CBA. Is there some reason you’re entitled to voice your opinion about the applicability of these sections, but I’m not?

At the time your article was posted the PA had filed no grievance, the precise bases for the rejection had not been publicly expressed with any exactitude, yet you — relying on your sources and upon your mother wit — speculated on where the core of the league’s rejection lay. Am I not permitted to do the same?

But your article goes further than generally discussing the application of 11.6 and 26.3 and 26.13. You proffer your own opinion as to what you deem to be the ultimate issue — “To sum up: This rejection is based on circumvention of the club upper limit or maximum player salary – despite that neither has been violated per Article 50.

Those words — “despite that neither has been violated per Article 50” — are laid out as if all the essential facts have been sifted and so carefully evaluated that nothing more need be said on the subject. It is clearly your opinion that there has been no circumvention because there have been no facts thus far presented that show a violation of any express provision in Article 50, nor is it probable that the NHL can show anything to prove the Devils’ or Kovy’s “intentions”.

You may be right. Your own opinion may, in fact, anticipate what an arbitrator himself may announce as his reason for ruling against the NHL. Maybe the league has no evidence but the Kovy contract and a bit of history about what the league and the players intended when they drafted the CBA.

But what I keep posting — and what you keep failing to see — is that an arbitrator MAY agree with the league, that he MAY find that the rejected SPC “has the effect” of bypassing the intention of the parties to the CBA, whether the Devils and/or Kovy intended that “effect” or not.

This much, an arbitrator is authorized to do simply by reviewing the face of the CBA, the face of the SPC, and failing to receive that “reasonable explanation” I asked you for. No more “proof” is required though, of course, I would expect more proof to be offered.

Now, what constitutes a sufficiently “reasonable” explanation differs from man to man. What you or Mr. Vanderbeek regard as reasonable explanations are unlikely to seem so to Mr. Bettman.

Nor may your reasonable explanations seem so reasonable to the arbitrator. He MAY look at the terms of the Kovy deal and say, “Hell, yes! There’s been a circumvention!” And he MAY do so without demanding the sort of “proof” that you think is indispensable. Such a decision is perfectly possible and not outside the purview of the CBA. If an arbitrator did come to such a conclusion you may disagree with it — I expect you to disagree with it — but the mere fact that he did come to such a conclusion would not mean that he was corrupt or an ignoramus or failing to exercise his honest judgment.

You expressed your opinion. I’m expressing mine. I believe the final 5 to 7 years of Kovy’s contract were tacked on to “get around” or “bypass” or “evade” — that is, to “circumvent” - the intention of the parties to the CBA, respecting the salary cap. I find your explanations of that 5 to 7-year period “unreasonable” in comparison with what I believe is the real purpose of those final years.

Do I think Kovy and the Devils should be punished for it? No. Do I want this matter even to go to arbitration? If you’ve read my posts, you know my answer is a resounding, “No!”

Do I think you have persistently failed to understand what I’ve been posting to you? Yes.

I don’t feel the need to offer you any “proof”. Given your obvious prejudices and your adamantine attitude about what constitutes a “circumvention” under the CBA, there’s no “proof” that’s likely to persuade you anyway. There could be a dead canary on the floor and Kovy and Lou standing over it with yellow feathers in their mouths and it wouldn’t matter to you.

You’re just one more advocate pleading your case. You made your decision the microsecond the NHL rejected the contract. You don’t want to be convinced. You’re not willing to be convinced. You’ve closed your mind down and sealed it with cement.

by yoshinny on Jul 27, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those words — "despite that neither has been violated per Article 50" — are laid out as if all the essential facts have been sifted and so carefully evaluated that nothing more need be said on the subject.

They have. The CBA defines specific guidelines, maximum salary and the 50% rule. These things are black and white. You’re either at or under the max, or you’re not. You either comply with the 50% rule or you don’t. There is no need for careful evaluation of these FACTS.

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by FrankG929 on Jul 27, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course, you must be right.

Why should the NLPA bother to file a grievance or go to arbitration?

The facts are so clear the league should just withdraw its rejection and apologize profusely for wasting everyone’s time.

Obviously, nothing I say will persuade a mind as refreshingly open as yours.

by yoshinny on Jul 27, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is right. The contract meets 50.6 and 50.7.

Of course, nothing you will say will persuade minds.

Now, if you could point out where in the CBA where this is somehow incorrect or invalid, then maybe you would.

Will you point out something that has been missed in the CBA? Can you point out something in the CBA?

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
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by John Fischer on Jul 27, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

if you could point out where in the CBA where this is somehow incorrect or invalid

It’s like I keep answering the same question and you just don’t hear it. Or won’t acknowledge it even after you hear it repeated again and again.

Circumvention relates to more than a violation of a specific provision of Article 50.

Circumvention explicitly includes any SPC that “has the effect” of bypassing “the intention of the parties” to the CBA. (26.3)

An arbitrator may honestly conclude that the final 5-7 years of the Kovy deal cannot be reasonably explained in the absence of conduct prohibited by Article 26. (26.13(b))

What was the “intention” of the NHL and the NHLPA when they drafted the CBA?

Such intentions may be determined not only by direct and circumstantial evidence of the sort which you demand. They may also be proved by testimony about conversations and notes prepared during the negotiations relating to the CBA. (33.1)
  
Looking at the face of the CBA one can’t help but notice the immense amount of space devoted to the salary cap and to those accounting procedures respecting home revenues that are used for the purpose of calculating the salary cap.

The cap is intended to provide financial stability for the league and to help sustain those teams who don’t have the cash available to compete with richer clubs.

Hence, it is arguably preposterous to rely upon the “fiction” that a cap hit is only $6 – mil when the player is being paid nearly twice that figure over the course of years, then the compensation trails off precipitously in the final 7 years of a 17-year contract.

Is that the “intention of the parties” to the CBA?

Personally, I think not. You can think what you like. But please stop asserting that the only thing in issue here is that the Kovy deal does not violate any express provision of Article 50.

You can argue that point of view. It does have merit — especially since other teams did much the same thing the Devils are trying to do.

But you cannot confine the issues at an arbitration hearing solely to those that are helpful to you. The CBA provides for a broader discussion than you would like. If you don’t see that, then it’s you, not I, who can’t understand the plain language of the CBA.

by yoshinny on Jul 28, 2010 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seems to me you signed up here just to argue. Im confused, why?

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 28, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I signed up here to talk hockey. I wasn’t being a sycophant when I said, in one of my posts above, that the fans on this site strike me as being among the most intelligent of any sports blog.

It just so happens that this particular thread is one where an argument is/was in progress.

I expressed my point of view. It was contradicted. I responded to that contradiction, and then things just took off from there.

If I’m not mistaken, didn’t you put your two cents into this “argument”? And didn’t you justify your own opinion as the “majority” point of view? Is there some sign on the door that says people can’t post on this site unless they agree with what everybody else is saying?

Frankly, I don’t care whether the majority agrees with me. nd I don’t care how small a minority I’m part of. When I have a point to make — and I’ve been making it repeatedly — I’ll reply to anybody who says I’m fulla beans.

Now, if you’ve been reading and digesting what the people have been saying in the course of this discussion, you’ll realize that all the participants — not just me — are fussing and giving-and-taking with vigor.

That’s because Frank and Fischer and I genuinely care about these issues we’re talking about. And if what they or I write overtaxes your intellect, perhaps you can find a site where robust argument and heated back-and-forth are not permitted.

Your question, therefore, should not be why I’m arguing, but why you’re confused.

by yoshinny on Jul 28, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

My question was simply did you choose to sign up here only to argue your point? There was no malice whatsoever. I could care less what your particular point of view is.
When you go about taking shots at people, and particularly me, now I have a reason to combat you. Your level of intellect does not give you, or anyone else, cause to speak the way you do.
I was confused as to your intentions, but I now have clarity.
My answer to you was not an argument, but an answer to your question. Explaining to you that the majority felt a similar way was not to justify my personal answer, it was to express to you what the majority of posters here have been saying since the contract was announced.
If we all agreed with each other, what would be the point? What I stated of you, was that you seemingly signed up for this site only to argue.
If your stance then, is simply to argue, then I have an answer to me question as to why you signed up. If, as it now seems, your stance is to try to belittle those that question your reasoning, then I would direct you to find some other place to pander.
Re-read your own comments and balance them against what the responses are, and you can see why you were questioned in the first place.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 28, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tell you what. Take your comment —

I will answer for me, and what I believe is the majority belief, is not what the intent of the contract is, but rather, that this contract, as it stands, should not and cannot be rejected at this time before a new CBA is ratified to exclude this type of deal, because there is precedence that shows ‘perceived circumvention’ in other accepted deals.

— and post it on a Washington NHL site. Then stand by it if you find yourself facing a different kind of majority than the one you’re used to.

by yoshinny on Jul 28, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

My original reply to you was deleted and I was warned to play nice.

But I think I can still claim to be playing by the rules if I set out certain points:

First, I cited chapter and verse from the CBA to support my point of view. Your reply did not discuss the sections I specified. Indeed, you didn’t even refer to anything my comment was about.

Instead, you wondered if I signed up here just to argue. You were confused. Perhaps if you’d confined your reply to meeting the specific points I’d raised in my comment, rather than questioning my motivation for posting it, your confusion would have been dispelled.

Second, you have twice brought up the “majority” — and made it a point to say that your own opinions were in conformity with it.

Having the support of a majority may win you elections or popularity contests. But it is irrelevant to a discussion of clauses in an NHL player’s contract.

A system arbitrator ruling on the Kovy deal is entitled to receive, without limitation, a wide variety of evidence that is not otherwise admissible in a court of law. (CBA 26.13, 33.1)

But one thing he is not entitled to receive is the majority opinion of posters on a Devils fan blogsite. The reasons should go without saying, but I’ll say one of them anyway — that your impartiality cannot be trusted because you have a direct and intimate stake in the controversy.

Third, no one has informed me that I am required to agree — with the majority or with anyone else — as a condition of my presence here.

By now it’s clear that I hold to an opinion with which Frank and John Fischer and you disagree. But I don’t think my interpretations of Sections 11.6, 26.3, 26.13, 33.1, and Article 50 of the CBA are — for that reason — entitled to less respectful attention than yours.

Fourth, I remind you that an argument over this Kovy issue was already up and running before I posted my first comment here.

I reacted to the penultimate paragraph in Fischer’s article. It pleases him to maintain that I’ve given him no “facts” — an assertion I have persistently challenged . But however much he and I continue to disagree, neither of us has sunk to a level of “circumventing” the other’s argument by suggesting that the only person who’d advance it just came on this site to make trouble.

That suggestion irked me — it irks me still. My opinion was sincerely voiced and just as sincerely maintained in the teeth of contradiction.

If in the heat of my reaction to you I was coarse and rude and not a gentleman, then please accept this apology.

But “playing nice” works both ways. Do not question the psychological motivation for my opinion or my sincerity in uttering it, unless you’re willing to get back a dose of the same medicine.

by yoshinny on Jul 28, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Smoking Guns

Based on the number of contracts that got signed within the opening hour of free agency on July 1st, I could make just as good an argument for teams tampering with free agents as you can that this contract circumvents the cap. And as with the whole tampering situation, you’re obliged to have proof before you can go forward with some sort of punishment for the actions. This seems to be common practice in most leagues, but you rarely see tampering charges filed, and it is even less likely to see a “conviction” and sanctions for doing so. The case we’ve brought up in other threads (Scott Stevens and the St. Louis Blues circa mid-‘90s) had one of your smoking guns — Federal Express turned over documentation related to the shipment of the contract demonstrating they were sent out early and signed for early. Most teams, players, and agents are smart enough that they don’t make it this easy for a League or another team to prove things — that’s simply how the game is played.

Teams and players aren’t so stupid as to leave the evidence where anyone and everyone can find it. And while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I still don’t see the progression of your arguments beyond “I think this is the case, therefore this must be the case”.

Your argument is the equivalent of asking the Devils to prove a negative. If there’s no collusion there, how would you like them to prove it to you? Do you want secret tape recordings of every meeting between Jay Grossman and Lou Lamorello? How about phone taps? How about reading every piece of mail sent out and received by either party? And even if they turned that over, would you be satisfied, or would you claim they’re holding something back because “there has to be something there” based on your preconceived notion that something smells?

Our argument is that there is precedent, and that there is no violation of the language of the CBA.

Put yourself into the shoes of a lawyer. The NHL rejected the contract claiming that it circumvented the cap. That places them in the shoes of the plaintiff. Unless the rules of law as practiced in America have changed while I wasn’t paying attention, that means the burden is on the NHL to prove their case, not on the Devils to disprove the NHL’s assertions (although the Devils doing so would be sufficient to defeat the NHL’s claim). If the NHL cannot prove their side of things, there is no case.

by acasser on Jul 25, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

you’re obliged to have proof before you can go forward with some sort of punishment for the actions

True. But don’t underestimate what “proof” means under the CBA.

The first piece of evidence is the SPC. A simple review of its terms may cause an arbitrator to find — as he’s explicitly authorized to find under 26.13(b) — that the extended term, the longest in NHL history, along with the final 7 years payable at a lunch-money rate, cannot be reasonably explained except as a violation of Section 26.

I’m sure you wouldn’t look at the SPC that way. Nor would many on this site. But do not delude yourself into the belief that the rest of the English-speaking world sees things the way you do.

So let’s assume an arbitrator does need that reasonable explanation. It’s not ridiculous to assume so, since the league itself needs one. Under those circumstances, unless the NHLPA comes forward with such a reasonable explanation — in other words, unless the PA now discharges its burden of proof — the arbitrator may be satisfied with his initial finding and make his ruling on that basis

What I just described may not happen. But would not be unusual for it to happen just as I’ve described.

Please get this clear in your mind. I don’t want this to go to arbitration. I want Kovy and the Devils to get what they want. But I’m frankly amazed at the unwillingness of so many Devils fans — and you guys are among the most intelligent posters I’ve seen on any sports site — to come to grips with what I perceive are obvious dangers.

Frankly, I don’t think the case will get so far. I believe it will be resolved so that Kovy starts the season with the Devils. But don’t act as though the league doesn’t have a leg to stand on. It does. And if it somehow withdraws its objection to Kovy’s SPC, it will be because it realizes that even if it wins this match, it’s a no-win proposition for everybody.

by yoshinny on Jul 25, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is the NTC and /or NMC after 7 years a problem here?

I recall reading a provision in the contract that allowed the NTC to expire after a number of years—maybe 7, but I am not certain.
IF SO, that may be the real bone of contention the NHL has, aside from the idea, or speculation, that Kovy won’t play til he’s 44. He may do so, and potentially on another team, since it looks like the Devils have a SEVEN YEAR CONTRACT at a $6 mil per year cap hit dressed up to look like a $102, 17 yr contract. Worse still, the bulk of Kovy’s compensation comes in those seven years, right? So the Devils pay Kovy $80 mil over 7 years($11.4 per year cap hit, technically) while taking a cap hit of $6, and after seven years he can be back on the market, hopefully with better bang for his buck, bigger player salaries to justify say $15-20 mil per year, and both parties walk away having gotten what they wanted out of what is—in my opinion(as a Devils fan) an extremely creative yet suspect contract. It seems like the provision concerning the NTC expiration is the real tipping point because the other contracts mentioned similar to this involved much older players who were less likely, year in and year out, to be valuable assets on the market in the future. Kovy has the potential, within the Devils organization, to become an extremely valuable asset on the market after seven years, especially if the club captures one or two more Cups. That would mean the Devils could wheel and deal their way out of the remaining years on the contract OR Kovy could potentially sign for much more on another team that buys him out of the Devils, but essentially the nonsense about 44 year olds and salary cap manipulation gets swept neatly under the rug.
Yes, this is speculation on my part, but I feel it is reasonable speculation given the leagues rejection. I think the point being missed by most is NOT whether or not Kovy plays until he’s 44, but whether or not the parties involved in arranging this contract reasonably expect that he will still be a Devil when he’s 35.
THAT is the issue central to this dispute. IMO, of course.

by Charles Moon on Jul 24, 2010 11:47 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the point being missed by most is NOT whether or not Kovy plays until he’s 44, but whether or not the parties involved in arranging this contract reasonably expect that he will still be a Devil when he’s 35.
THAT is the issue central to this dispute. IMO, of course.

I’m not sure what you mean – there’s a one-year window (2017-2018) when he could be traded, then a NTC kicks in for the remainder of the contract. It’s probably there as an ‘abort’ clause in case either party desires to part ways after 7 years, though how desirable a 35-year old Kovy with a $6M cap hit will be on the market is up for debate (see: Rolston, Brian). I don’t see how this would violate anything in the CBA; negotiating NTCs and NMCs is expressly legal per Article 11.8, and trading Kovy for cap space is also expressly permitted in Article 50.5 (e)(ii). Here’s the important bits:

Article 11.8
(a) The SPC of any Player who is a Group 3 Unrestricted Free Agent under Article 10.1(a) may contain a no-Trade or a no-move clause.
Article 50.5 (e)
(ii) Creation of Payroll Room. Nothing in this Agreement shall prohibit a Club from creating Payroll Room by Assignment, Waiver, buyout, or as otherwise permitted under this Agreement.

by richer44 on Jul 25, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s what I’m refering to, then—that one-year window. I’m not saying it is not legal, I’m saying that the NHL is likely taking more issue with that than the 44 years because it basically is inviting a termination via trade after 7 years.
Yes, it is legal according to the rules, but it clearly leaves a bad taste in the NHL’s mouth.
Is that reason to deny it? Only if the NHL thinks it prove that there is an “undisclosed agreement” between Kovulchuk and the Devils to effectively terminate the contract after 7 years.
My point—my only point, really—is that tailored as it is the contract does imply that the deal is 7 years, $80 million for a $6 mil salary cap hit, dressed up as a 17-year $102 mil contract, in which case the NHL’s charge of “undisclosed agreement” has a ring of validity to it. The Devils are having their cake and eatting too. Now, to what extent such an “undisclosed agreement” can be proven is another matter, and clearly one a future arbiter is going to have to chew on.
This is perspective on the dispute hasn’t been discussed enough.

by Charles Moon on Jul 25, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

A no-trade clause or a no-movement clause is not an absolute obstruction to player movement. Rather, it obliges the player to sign off before said transaction is made, and allows the player to veto a trade (both) or an assignment to the AHL (NMC) if he does not wish to go. I sincerely doubt this is the NHL’s beef, because the NTC/NMC windows have absolutely no impact on the cap situation, and per TSN, the NHL rejected the deal apparantly because they do not believe either the player or the club (Kovy and the Devils respectively) expect Kovalchuk to be playing near the end of the deal.

If your claims that the NMC/NTC window is enough to be considered cap circumvention, you have a whole host of contracts that circumvent the cap right now — for example, the one Tomas Kaberle has in Toronto, where the lack of the Leafs making the playoffs has nullified his no-trade through August 15th.

NHL’s charge of "undisclosed agreement" has a ring of validity to it.

That’s the best case the NHL can make, but they will likely need something more specific to substantiate it to an arbitrator. As John and many, many others have said to various posters in these threads, give us something a little stronger than this, some actual evidence or a clause in the CBA to support your side. If you want to say the contract doesn’t pass the “smell test”, I’m likely to concede the point. If you prefer to make a mathematical/statistical based argument that the odds he makes it to 44 are relatively slight, I’ll start throwing out reasons why the data set on which your assumptions lie is flawed.

You’d need an arbitrator to rule based on the “smell test”, and not on the language of the CBA or the precedent of the contracts already approved and registered without a peep of protest from the League. Also, don’t bring up any hogwash about how the League changed the rules after the Hossa deal — the League does not have the right to unilaterally change the rules within the CBA. It is called a Collective Bargaining Agreement because it is an agreement fairly negotiated between two or more sides, wherein changes to the agreement have to be agreed upon by all sides. The League cannot artificially impose a contract length limit, any more than the NHLPA can declare that the minimum salary should be $1 million, or $100,000, or any other figure their imagination can conceive.

This is perspective on the dispute hasn’t been discussed enough.

The NTC/NMC theory? There is no point in arguing it, because that’s not the basis for the NHL’s rejection. As for how this is a contract with a tail tacked on to artificially lower the cap hit, that discussion is the proverbial horse that has been beaten to death…. with the corpse then beaten into a red smear on the ground, and that smear beaten some more for good measure. It has been the focus of In Lou We Trust for a week, and the focus of this one, and has been brought up recently on several other SB Nation team sites such as here, here, and here.

I’m ready for this situation to be done, so we can get back to the rest of the NHL’s summer. I’d prefer to discuss roster moves, potential lines and D-man pairings, drool over the top prospects, anticipate training camp and Opening Night. I’d prefer not to need a law degree, or to break out my old mathematics degree (which I really do have, sadly enough) to talk the Devils. About 60 hours ago, I think stpattysdaymassacre26 put it very nicely:

I remember when the sport used to be about putting a puck in the net.

by acasser on Jul 25, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

average per year

hey fellow devils fans (my first post, i signed up the other night because I wanted to comment but had to wait the 24 hours.).

My question is this. Why not restructure the deal so that its the same years and dollar amount but make it 6 million dollars for every year. Sure, Kovalchuk doesn’t get all the money up front, but he is going to be getting paid the same amount for the next 17 years. At the end of the day, he still makes 102 million over the course of the contract. It kind of reminds me of a situation where the mets are paying Bobby Bonilla like 1 mil a year for the next 30 years because they agreed to this payment schedule when they bought him out.

As a person, he is still going to be very wealthy. Personally, I’d go for it because you see how so many athletes go bankrupt. The length of contract would make this scenario next to impossible. So my question is, if they were to restructure it this way, would that change the NHL’s stance? There would be no salary drop off from year 1 to year 17. And, we would get the last laugh because it would be the same terms just the payment schedule would be different.

Anyway, I’ll be posting more often now, some may remember me from way back in the day on the ESPN boards as this same name (JerichoRulz).

-JR

by jerichorulz on Jul 25, 2010 1:00 AM EDT reply actions  

My question is this. Why not restructure the deal so that its the same years and dollar amount but make it 6 million dollars for every year.

Because Ilya Kovalchuk and his agent don’t want it that way? Because the the KHL Has $12-14 million/year for the next few years on the table? Because if he simply signed short deals (1-3 years at a pop), he could get truckloads of money from NHL teams? Because $6 million paid in 2019-2020 isn’t worth the same as $6 million paid this year in real economic terms, and your revised proposal significantly drags down the “present value” of the entire $102 million?

Ilya wants to get paid for his talents…. and in a truly unrestricted market without a salary cap, he’d probably get close to the $11.5 million per season that he receives during a good chunk of the contract under debate. The NHLPA also wants to see him paid in this front-loaded fashion, because the next superstar who negotiates a big contract (UFA or no) will point to the big-money years and argue he’s worth similar money. If Kovy only makes $6 million a season, max, it is harder for the “good but not great” players to get similar money from their teams. The NHLPA wants to see all player salaries rise, as that is part of their purpose and advocacy.

Personally, I’d go for it because you see how so many athletes go bankrupt.

So would I, but neither one of us are “many athletes”.

Many athletes go bankrupt because they have no concept of managing money, because they give piles of cash to their hangers-on, they make bad investments, they don’t save for the future, etc., etc., etc. You see the same thing with lottery winners, people who hit it big at the casino or racetrack once in a while, and so on. If you can’t manage your money, how much you make is of less consequence — you’ll blow it whether it is $6 or $6 million. I have a large family, and I see several different spots on the economic spectrum when it comes to them. Some of them couldn’t manage their money (or save it, or spend it wisely) if you put a gun to their head…. and some of those make considerably more than I do…. and yet I’m the one bailing them out of their messes.

To condense my point: fiscal responsibility can be taught, but it isn’t a lesson tied to your income level, nor is it a lesson easily learned.

if they were to restructure it this way, would that change the NHL’s stance?

I imagine the NHL would have rolled their eyes at the contract’s length, but wouldn’t have rejected it. Had they done so, the Devils and the NHLPA would simply point to Rick DiPietro’s contract with the Islanders, and an arbitrator might end the hearing right there and then and inform the NHL to stop wasting his/her time.

by acasser on Jul 25, 2010 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't breathe easily just yet

While what you say about the meeting having to take place before arbitration the NHLPA has to decide if they are going to fight the charge or not (obviously we’ll know that really soon) I would believe that at that point there will be a meeting between the NHL and the NHLPA where they try and hammer out the differences with a whole lot of lawyers on both sides. If that fails then it goes to an arbitrator which as several other people have pointed out could do anything that they want even if what is there is technically legal.

No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.

by Maverides on Jul 25, 2010 11:54 AM EDT reply actions  

So many issues, Im scared for what the repurcussions will be throughout the League if the NHL wins (or loses even, really), but I very much look forward to September and training camps open.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 25, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know and

if Kovi’s contract does end up getting killed, then depending on what the arbitrator say they have to decide if they go after Hossa (or possibly they won’t have a choice but to invalidate it as well depending on how the ruling is worded) which could be a real nightmare since if his contract is ruled invalid I think they might have to invalidate the cup win as well if I read the provisions correctly. And I really believe that is something the NHL doesn’t want to have to deal with.

No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.

by Maverides on Jul 26, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

No side wins if the case goes to Arbitration.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 26, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, Hockey doesn’t win. It’s clearly personal for Bettman. He could win.

And according to the CBA, the league would have the option to investigate the Hossa deal, since there is no limit to how long after a contract is approved that if can also be investigated. They wouldn’t have to, contractually, but have the option. One of the penalties is forefeiture of any and all games in which the subject player had participated…hence 0 wins for games he played in, including the Finals. Year with no Cup? Asterisk? Flyers win by default?

Does he really want to investigate that deal? Of course not. Which is why the best case scenario for everyone involved is not to go to Arbitration, and then offer UFA Kovy a Hossa contract, as close as humanly possible, maybe even erring on the side of caution. It would have to be allowed.

by Murdoc on Jul 26, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

And therein lies a problem I have with Gary Bettman — he often puts his own personal agenda above what is best for the league, which isn’t really his job description. The Commissioner works for the owners (more-or-less), and he is supposed to balance being their advocate (in the same way the head of the NHLPA is a players’ advocate) with what is best for the league. Sure, Bettman could end up “winning” by getting an arbitrator to rule the contract violates the CBA, but the ramifications beyond just the Kovalchuk deal could do tremendous damage to the sport.

the league would have the option to investigate the Hossa deal

Actually, the NHL is still investigating Hossa, et al, although we haven’t really heard much about it. Remember, it isn’t just Hossa. You have Pronger in Philly, Luongo in Vancouver, Savard in Boston. Of those three teams, one of them went to the Finals, and the other two got bounced in the second round. If you treat them all the same way, and go to the extreme route of forfeiture, there is no clean solution.

I submit once again that the best route would be for all four interested parties (the Devils, Kovy and his agent, the NHLPA, and the League/Board of Governors) to sit down and hash out a compromise. Tweak with the Kovy contract just enough so Bettman can give his “victorious” press conference, without changing much in the way of the material terms so Kovy and the Devils aren’t tempted to go to arbitration. Lay down some interim ground rules to get you through to 2012, and repeat them loudly and often to the press so everyone knows where the lines are, teams and players and agents and media and fans alike. Issue a statement that the League is “disappointed” in the glut of contracts that employed this loophole, but that no further action will be taken and the matter is closed.

Then, we can get back to worrying about putting pucks in the net.

by acasser on Jul 26, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Testify brother! Today is the day for that to happen though, otherwise the terms and possibilities change, right?

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 26, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I "think"

that if they don’t fight it today the contract is null and void and he can sign anything with anyone again. Which of course would have to be approved by the league.

The whole penalty thing is then in play but that is so strangely worded that it might only come into play if they fight and lose or can be completely ignored if they want. (I seem to remember conversation about a 1 million minimum for a fine but another clause that could be read that there doesn’t even have to be a fine)

No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.

by Maverides on Jul 26, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have a sneaky suspicion that if the NHL manages to win this fight (ether by the PA standing down, or in arbitration), that they will “interpret” the rule outlining the appropriate fines in whatever way is necessary to avoid fining the Devils.

The NHL wants these contracts eliminated. They don’t want to pick a fight with a GM who will be instrumental in getting the 2012 CBA passed.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Jul 26, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree. It would be highly detrimental to all sides other than non-Devils fans.

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 26, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lay down some interim ground rules to get you through to 2012, and repeat them loudly and often to the press so everyone knows where the lines are, teams and players and agents and media and fans alike. Issue a statement that the League is "disappointed" in the glut of contracts that employed this loophole, but that no further action will be taken and the matter is closed.

The lack of doing just that is what angers me most about the NHL. I’m find with them taking a stand on certain issues, whether hits to the head, or boarding, or crazy contracts. What I can’t stand, is the way that they seem to keep everything a secret. There is no transparency to speak of. I want to know how the Hossa contract is okay, when the Kovalchuk contract is not. I want to know how Ovechkin’s boarding major warranted a Game Misconduct, whereas Hossa’s in the playoffs did not. I want to know why they could decide in the middle of the playoffs that waving your hand in the goaltender’s face should be interpreted as unsportsmanlike conduct, but they couldn’t decide in the middle of the season that blind side hits to the head are covered under intent to injure.

I just want transparency, and the IK contract issue has provided none. In this particular case, you get stonewalled with “No Comment” at every turn. We don’t even know what issue the NHL has with the IK contract, and today is the last day for the PA to decide whether or not to go to arbitration.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Jul 26, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another “Testify!”

Ironically, the rules post-contract void declaration are crystal clear. And nowhere in those procedures is there a “let’s all get together and deal with this like professionals.” So…here we are. Just under 5 hours left until a decision to go to Arbitration has to be made. A whole lot at stake, far beyond ZOMG! KOVYZ NOT A DEVL!!

by Murdoc on Jul 26, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hilariously, the post contract decision rules are about the only part of the CBA that is clear.

I’m actually going to be really disappointed if the PA doesn’t take this to arbitration. This has been the most interesting hockey story in a long, long time.

I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.

by iwearstripes on Jul 26, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t worry, they are.

Either 11.6.(a).(iii) will happen or 11.6.(a).(v) will happen. Either Kovalchuk goes back to UFA or he doesn’t. That’s all.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jul 26, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

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