Parise or Kovalchuk?
If Kovalchuk re signs that could make it hard for the Devils to re sign Parise next year. They will also have to give Zajac and Greene long term deals soon. This could be hard but it is possible to do it. To keep Kovalchuk now they would deal Salavdor's 2.9 million dollar cap hit and Zubrus's 3.5 million salary. Then they would have about 1 milion under the cap. Zach Parise will likely get twice as much as what he gets now. Zajac will also get a healthy raise and so will Greene. After 2011 Langenrbunner comes off the cap which will help and Arnott's 4.5 will come off the cap. Langebrunner will probrably leave and Arnott could also or re sign for about 3 million. The year after White and Rolston come off the cap which is 8 million and so does Brodeur but he might also retire or come back for one more year. After this year some of the young guys will likely be ready which will help. If signing Kovalchuk means Parise will leave is it worth it?
Parise is one year younger then Kovalchuk. He is also a much better defensive winger and has developed excellent chemistry with Zajac. They have a lot of excellent young players which could give them an elite team for the future and he is the best one. Kovalchuk is a better offensive player but is that enough to re sign him an loss another elite players a couple of other role players. the difference offensively is not enough to sign him and potentially lose Parise. They could keep both if they could either deal Elias or Rolston which will be difficult. It could be worth dealing Elias because someone might take a chance because of his dynamic playmaking ability but he makes 6 million which could turn other teams off. Tedenby hopefully could be ready to take over for Elias soon if not this year. Kovalchuk has also not proved himself in big games or to be a leader which is a problem with giving him a big deal and losing others. It is still very possible he will.
It would be better to lockup Parise even if it means not re signing Kovalchuk. It is most important for them to lock up the young core long term. If they can do that and re sign Kovalchuk that would be even better. The young core of Parise, Zajac, Urbon, Tedeby, Josefesen, Volchenkov and others will be great for a long time. If they could keep Kovalchuk with them that would make it even better but that is hard.
If this year does not work out I think they should deal all the veterans that would waive their NTC's and free up cap room. It could be a good idea to trade Elias because he makes 6 million and they could also deal Zubrus and Salavdor because they are expendable and would give them over 6 million more. Then they could trade for someone like Bobby ryan or Neil from the Stars for another big scorer.
Bottom line- Parise is a better all around player then Kovalchuk and he is cheaper and younger so they should make sure they can re sign him before Kovalchuk.
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Ugh.
Not this again. And from a Devils fan.
If it was ever deemed an Either / Or situation by the Devils Organization, Kovalchuk would not be part of the equation.
10-11, 11-12, and 12-13 are big years for Last Year FAs. There is plenty of money coming off the payroll in the time we would need to fund current and future players we want to retain. UFAs do not need to be resigned. As we all saw this offseason, a Devil on June 30 does not necessarily = a Devil on July 1.
Don’t let the anti-devil hysteria of ZPvsIK get to you man. They’ll both be Devils for a long time. Once all this BS is over, our fearless leaders will get to work on keeping Zach here. No worries . They’ve got all season to figure that one out.
by Murdoc on Aug 24, 2010 11:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I have to agree with Murdoc. Does any Devils fan really think Lou would sign Kovalchuk at the cost of losing Parise? Can we please put this to rest already? The articles lamenting how the negotiations between the Devils and Parise “haven’t even started yet” are the most annoying, with the exception of Scott Stevens and Martin Brodeur Lou has not negotiated a contract until the previous one has run its course. The lack of negotiations doesn’t mean anything – besides I think Lou has been a little busy with the Kovalchuk negotiations.
Lou’s history with re-upping players before their contracts expire is true but, personally, I’d feel better if Zach were one of the exceptions.
My hope is that once the Kovalchuk deal is done (one way or the other), they make an effort to get an extension signed before he reaches RFA status.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I expect that Parise will also be one of Lou’s “exceptions” and that he’ll turn his attention there once the Kovy saga is over. Ever since the trade my gut feeling has been that Lou’s plan was to go forward with Parise and Kovalchuk in the post-Brodeur era.
We should also remember that as per Gulitti Parise doesn’t even have an agent right now (or at least didn’t when free agency started). Hard to negotiate without an agent unless you’re like Marty and are willing to do it yourself.
The concerns over how the Devils fill out the roster around Kovalchuk and Parise are valid and I think that is what we should be discussing, instead of the fallacious distraction of it being either Kovalchuk or Parise.
Parise has said though that if he were approached about negotiating an extension or whatever, he’d stop dragging his feet and find an agent.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Hey, Alex Ovechkin didn’t need no agent to negotiate the richest deal in NHL history.
Yeah, no chance Kovalchuk gets kept over Parise.
by red army line on Aug 24, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Barring the unlikely event that Lou loses his mind and signs Kovalchuk to a ridiculous near-max contract, the only way Parise won’t be a Devil going forward is if he chooses not to be.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
by elesias on Aug 24, 2010 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 24, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And..
with Parise being a RESTRICTED FREE AGENT, he’s all but guaranteed to be a Devil for at least the next two seasons.
That being said, Parise is probably gonna stay. Look, the kid reads at local NJ libraries. He has to like playing here. Plus, a deep playoff run/cup this year (which, with or without Kovy, seems to be more of a possibility to me than in years past) would help solidify his stay.
I’m sick of this topic already. Without even going into who has more value long term, because I differ from the masses on that topic, lets get Kovy signed first and worry about Parise when the time comes.
Cmon
We can sign both. Don’t listen to Ranger and Flyer fans.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 24, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It's been said before...
the only people who think the Devils can’t sign Parise are people that want him on their team and think they have a shot to sign him.
Both!! and......?
Pick your triangle of players that you want to build your team around! In the past it was Stevens, Brodeur & Niedermayer, now its Kovalchuk, Parise and ??? and fill out your roster with hungry rookies & smart veterans and make sure you have all of your needs addressed eg. shot blockers, penalty killers, etc….
One of our rookies will have to step up this season to fill in the and ?? spot and we go forward from there!!! Hopefully its a D Man because that is a vital area that you want to build your core around!
“Let’s Go Devils”
Ohhh, I like the challenge.
Why not make the ??? one of those fill-out rookies. We’ll have a pretty damn good idea of that after this season. More than one are going to have to step up and perform.
Does Tao have a monster camp and become the scoring threat? Is Eckford ready to QB the PP from the blueline? Or is our ?? a forward…maybe one of them Center guys. Not this year, but next? Maybe it’s an Android, now a devil for over half a decade.
hehe, this is fun
Greene? Volchenkov?
Our next big four will probably be for the future (after Marty retires) would be Parise, Kovalchuk, Volchenkov, and Frazee.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 24, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
frazee isn’t a bad goaltender but i feel like we should trade for one long term…i just think that since he was drafted 5 years ago and still cant get a roster spot (regardless he was playing collegiate for a little while) but we still have to sign backups in the offseason cause he’s not playing high enough to back marty up…so im not 100% confident for when marty retires that frazee will be ready..
these my choices to choose from: what do u think we’d have to give up to LA to get jonathan bernier or maybe jonathan quick?
No love for Zajac?
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 24, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
There must be love for Zajac. He’s great.
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by John Fischer on Aug 24, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't keep my eyes off him. lol

Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 24, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Fear of what could happen
Sign both but we could end up like Chicago with 4 or 5 guys making all the money in a few years. Granted the Hawks won it all last year, but this off season looks like the Marlins in 97 and 03 just unloading players after the World Series. The salary cap will not allow you to keep more then 2-3 stars and the rest a little above and below average and in the middle.
But…. we don’t know how Chicago’s cup-defense has gone yet, since it hasn’t even started. It might be something to fear if the Blackhawks suffer a considerable drop in the standings and/or are eliminated from the playoffs early (e.g. round 1). Until then however, I’ll wait to pass judgment on whether or not they really are a one and done team.
Top heavy teams are how it’s done nowadays… it’s a byproduct of salaries for stars growing faster than the salary cap.
Chicago’s situation had more to do with bad deals and bonuses than it did with having a few guys making all the money. Their core is still intact, and as the good Dr points out, they haven’t even begun their title defense and so many are condemning the way they did things (not that they wouldn’t have done a few things differently).
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
The NFL is the exact same way. A handful of “stars” make the really big money at the top end, and then you cram in as many guys at (or close to) the minimum as possible. Not much of a middle class left after that. The idea is to maximize your top-end talent, and then to figure that the difference in talent between a “middle class” kind of player and a league minimum guy isn’t so much to worry over.
I don't even know where to begin....
…. because there are so many statements in this FanPost that are simply wrong.
Parise’s contract has nothing to do with Kovalchuk’s contract, except perhaps in a tangential sense that they’ll get similar amounts of money. We’ve been through the numbers in several different articles on this site, and there’s certainly enough money to accomodate Parise so long as the Devils want him back. Perhaps it will mean the “sacrifice” of a veteran or two, in that they won’t be re-signed (or not for anything close to what they make now)…. but aren’t we awfully high on some of the “kids” and their ability to step in? And because the Devils have drafted mostly in the 20s over the years, the cap hits on said “kids” is very reasonable (nothing even as high as a million, per CapGeek). In addition, Parise is only a restricted free agent, meaning the Devils simply have to tender a qualifying offer by July 1st if it gets that far and they’ll retain matching rights to any contract offered him.
Zajac will also get a healthy raise and so will Greene.
Travis Zajac is a complete non-issue at this point. Per the CBA, the Devils can’t even open negotiations on a contract extension until he enters the final year of his current contract. In this case, that means July 1st, 2012. Until that date starts getting close (and 22 months is not even in the same area code), there’s no particular reason to even worry about it…. a lot can happen between now and then. Another fly in this ointment is the possibility of another labor stoppage that summer. If things get as bad as 2004-2005 and the whole season gets wiped out, the Devils will never have the opportunity to negotiate an extension with Travis Zajac. He’ll go from “one-plus remaining on his deal” to “unrestricted free agent”, similar to how Scott Niedermeyer did.
Andy Greene is a different case. I’m sure Lou will negotiate with Greene’s agent at some point if he feels like re-signing him before July 1st. At the same time, Andy has the right to elect unrestricted free agency and test the market. Just because we (as fans) want a player back doesn’t mean he will be back — does anyone remember how strong the sentiment was on this blog for Paul Martin’s return?
Langebrunner will probrably leave and Arnott could also or re sign for about 3 million.
You might as well ask a psychic to predict next summer’s free agent frenzy, as doing so now is an exercise in futility. We don’t know who is going to vastly increase or decrease their value with this season’s play, who might get hurt, who might decide to retire or go to Europe, who will get re-signed in-season, etc. It is very easy to say so-and-so will be allowed to walk, or that Player Z will re-sign for a particular amount. Without anything in the way of supporting evidence, it is nothing more than baseless speculation, and that should be left to the Scott Burnsides of the world. It certainly shouldn’t be brought up as an argument as to why Parise might not be affordable for the Devils.
As with your past hypothesis on the Devils offense, I’m asking for some rational argument why that particular number has any grounding in reality, as opposed to being plucked out of thin air. A figure of $3 million seems awfully arbitrary.
They have a lot of excellent young players which could give them an elite team for the future
Are you referring to prospects such as Tedenby and Josefson? Do any of us have the slightest clue what any of them are going to turn into? Sure, they could turn into stars and give the Devils an elite team. They could also all be busts, and the Devils would be in a serious pickle.
I’m reminded of the adage about “birds in the hand” and “birds in the bush”. We know what Ilya Kovalchuk is…. whether or not you feel he is worth his asking price is a separate issue. We don’t know what the prospects are, yet. Adam Henrique could well be the next Travis Zajac…. or he could turn into this highly-drafted Devil’s center from the late 1990s.
The young core of Parise, Zajac, Urbon, Tedeby, Josefesen, Volchenkov and others will be great for a long time.
Three of those guys have never played a minute in the NHL. One of the remaining three has never played a minute for the Devils. While Parise is among the NHL’s elite, and Zajac is a very good player (albeit never an Olympian, All-Star, or award nominee), it is a tremendous leap to call the six of them “great for a long time”. Do we even know that Urbom, Tedenby, and Josefson are even going to make the NHL, whether this year or at some undefined point in the future?
If this year does not work out I think they should deal all the veterans that would waive their NTC’s
That won’t be very many players, then, at least if you’re hoping for anything in the neighborhood of a fair return. It would also mean disassembling the team and starting from scratch. If you do that, why would Parise re-sign for the long term? Why would Zajac be interested in re-signing when his contract is up? Would Lou Lamorello even be up for such a job, or would he sail off into the sunset? Would Vanderbeek sign off on this sort of thing? Would the fans stick around for a lengthy process and an uncertain result?
In today’s NHL, rebuilding jobs are not done overnight. Consider the Pittsburgh Penguins: they drafted in the Top 5 from 2002 through 2006 after disassembling the Lemieux/Jagr team (the one that got bounced in 2001 by the Devils in the ECF, after which Jagr went public in asking out). They got a gem in Crosby in the 2005 draft, but they didn’t even make the playoffs until 2006-2007 — promptly getting bounced in the first round by Ottawa that year to boot. I imagine the Devils would probably have to suck for two or three years before they started accumulating enough talent to build back up to what we have now — one of the NHL’s elite teams. Even then, success is not a guarantee, whether from poor drafting or because that transcendent superstar isn’t available when they need him.
trade Elias because he makes 6 million and they could also deal Zubrus and Salavdor because they are expendable and would give them over 6 million more. Then they could trade for someone like Bobby ryan or Neil from the Stars for another big scorer.
Just having cap space isn’t enough to lure a player the caliber of Bobby Ryan. There’s no guarantee you’ll be able to use offer sheets to lure RFAs, plus you can’t throw piles of money at multiple RFAs given the number of draft picks you have to have for each one. I don’t see where the Devils have the talent to swing a trade, either. Beyond that, why would a young stud like James Neal even want to come to a team that has completely dismantled itself and won’t be relevant for a few years?
You have the two young scorers now — Parise and Kovalchuk. You have a strong supporting cast around them: a goalie in Brodeur, an above-average defense (even if there is no “name” star), and a talented and deep group of forwards to help out.
If this club isn’t to your satisfaction, what more are you looking for? And what precipitated this about-face from this opinion of last week?
by acasser on Aug 24, 2010 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
They can contend if they are healthy which is a problem for a couple of key players. They also need another top four defensman and another solid center.
Health is the ultimate wild card in professional sports. You can ask for good health for your favorite players, you can pray for it or even sacrifice various farm animals at the altars of pagan gods if you think that will improve your case. When it comes down to it, every team suffers injuries to some degree. Either you hope that your team gets lucky and largely misses the injury bug, or you hope that your prospects can fill the gap. The Devils did reasonably well with door number two last season.
A Top 4 defenseman and another solid center? You sure that’s your entire shopping list, and that you don’t want something else while we’re at the store? Beyond that, how are you planning to pay for your purchases? In case you hadn’t noticed, the Devils are pretty close to capped out now. If they do re-sign Kovalchuk, they’ll have to shed a few pieces to make it back under the cap. I don’t know where you expect to find the cap room, if you have blackmail photos on Devils with NTCs and other league GMs to facilitate trades, or if perhaps you believe the remaining free agents will flock to the Devils at bargain basement prices because Lou Lamorello is just a sweet guy. If it is either of the latter, I’ll use the internet go find another picture, so help me….
"or even sacrifice various farm animals at the altars of pagan gods"
lol, Really… I would have stopped at pray.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Parise, Kovalchuk and Elias
Will all be devils, no doubt.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
by S.Stevens on Aug 24, 2010 7:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Le Sigh...
I second everything Acasser said.
Seriously people get off of Henrique, Tedeby and Josefesen like they’re all we need. They’ve never played an NHL game, two of whom have never played a game in North America. Yeah we all can hope that the scouting reports are accurate and all three develop into quality players, but Kovalchuk already is a quality player entering his prime playing years.
by Zelepukin on Aug 24, 2010 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Simple math
If the Devils can fit in Kovalchuk THIS year, basic math skills are all that are needed to get Parise his raise.
Current cap hit = $3.125M
UFA’s after next season, Arnott, Langenbrunner, and Hedberg, $4.5M, $2.8M and $1.5M cap hits
Total available for Parise and 3 replacement players = $11.925M.
Allot $1.5M for each replacement, being generous, $7.425M cap hit available for Parise.
Game. Set. Match. LET THIS DIE ALREADY!!!
Go Devils
Go Jets
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by FrankG929 on Aug 25, 2010 10:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Arnott, Langenbrunner, and Hedberg
Replacements/Bringing some of these players back will cost quite a bit more than 1.5 each. With Kovalchuk I see the cap hit being around 4.8 – 5.2 for Parise. Although this is assuming Kovy’s cap hit is high and the Replacements and/or Return of these players are equally skilled to what they produce now.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Arnott: I’d guess Josefson or Henrique are the front runners, depending on which one makes/doesn’t make the 10-11 team. Both $900K or less. Saves $600K from my estimate.
Hedberg: Jeff Frazee is an RFA, but how much of a raise should he get having no NHL experience? $700K seems more than generous, another $800K from my guess
Langenbrunner:1.5 + .6 + .8 = $2.9M. Shouldn’t be a problem finding a right wing for that much.
Go Devils
Go Jets
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Parise is not signing for 4.8-5.2. If that’s all the Devils offer him, his agent (when he gets one) will shop him to other teams, and someone (Brian Burke?) will try and blow the Devils out of the water with an offer sheet. Even though Zach is an RFA after the season, I think the bidding starts at $6 million per, and I think it will end up a long-term deal closer to $7 million…. though I can’t tell for sure which side it will land on.
As for the right-wing, the answer is already on the roster. David Clarkson will be given every opportunity to be that Top 6 forward when Langenbrunner departs…. and Brian Rolston will still be around for one more season at that point, and could do a servicable job in that role. If it isn’t one of them, I imagine it would be a prospect such as Tedenby.
Assuming the Devils lavish briefcases of money on Parise and Kovalchuk both, a lot of other “holes” will be filled internally, because that’s the cost-effective way to do things.
One quibble: Given the sheer number of available veterans (e.g. Mike Mottau – how is he not signed with anyone?), it may be more cost effective to give an older player a 1-year, league minimum deal until more space is made available.
But yeah, the big issue with Parise isn’t just how much he’ll command, but replacing all of the outgoing players with similar talent.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 26, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’ll go for above $7 million, for what it’s worth. Guys like Stastny, Toews, Kane, and Backstrom seem to have set the market rather low.
by red army line on Aug 27, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Parise is not signing for 4.8-5.2.
In all fairness, he said: “I see the cap hit being around 4.8 – 5.2 for Parise.”
If they did a 9 year deal to take him to 35 with a reasonable decline in pay in line with the decline of a player reaching 35, it’s possible to get a cap hit in that range that the League would (should?) accept.
Say, something like: 7.5, 7.5, 7, 7, 6, 5, 4, 2, 1 — cap hit 5.22
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
something like: 7.5, 7.5, 7, 7, 6, 5, 4, 2, 1 — cap hit 5.22
If Parise signs this contract, the NHL will need about nine-tenths of a second to reject it under the same guidelines they rejected the Kovalchuk deal.
In addition, why would Parise possibly sign a contract that dips in such a fashion while he’s still in his prime years? So long as he stays healthy (a fair assumption to make to age 35), he’d be worth a heck of a lot more than $1 million at the end of it. The only reason to sign such a deal (to me) would be a handshake agreement to buy it out after five or six years and replace it with a new contract.
Why would they be so quick to reject it? It’s not an egregious drop off, nor an excessive tail of minimum salary obviously tacked on to reduce the cap hit, nor is it long enough that his being able to play to that age would be a concern.
Also, “prime years” is subjective. The kid is a phenomenal talent, and he’s due a nice raise (which he’d get with $29m over four years), but even the best slow down as they get older and though he’s only 26, he’d be 30 before he made a cent less than $7m per year. The kind of game he plays doesn’t lend itself to longevity. While he doesn’t rely on speed like some players, he does take an awful lot of punishment season after season, and that’s going to wear on him.
Regardless, I said “something like.” I don’t think he would sign that contract, or that the team would offer him one like that… I was merely pointing out that the original statement by poster S.Stevens was that he saw Zach signing for a cap hit between 4.8 and 5.2, which is possible despite your immediate dismissal.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Your Honor, the prosecution submits:
Exhibit A: Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane just signed identical five-year deals with cap hits of $6.3 million and level salary throughout. Both are significantly younger with shorter track records than Parise.
Exhibit B: Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin are both currently under five-year contracts with cap hits of $8.7 million annually. Admittedly, both are better players than Parise and have significantly greater contributions come post-season…. but Parise is close enough to their level that those kind of contract numbers could be a “reach for the stars” by his new agent.
Exhibit C: Marian Gaborik is one year into a five-year contract with a cap hit (and annual salary) of $7.5 million. Parise’s lack of a lengthy injury history makes him the better investment, but a healthy Gaborik is certainly a comparable player.
I could see Parise going for a 4-year/$29 million deal…. but there’s no particular reason for him to take the remaining 5-years/$19 million tacked onto the end of that theoretical contract. If you were Parise, would you trade the opportunity to hit the market again at age 31 for that “security” (at a reduced wage)? Considering Parise’s injury history (or lack thereof), I don’t see a good reason to leave that much money on the table.
The kind of game he plays doesn’t lend itself to longevity. While he doesn’t rely on speed like some players, he does take an awful lot of punishment season after season, and that’s going to wear on him.
Why doesn’t it lend itself to longevity? Parise’s track record shows a remarkable bill of health…. and while it might be unfair to expect him to keep playing 99% of the games year-after-year, I haven’t seen the reckless disregard for his body or somesuch that lends itself to injuries.
Your Honor, the Prosecution presents Exhibit D, Parise’s games played record:
With NJ Devils: 81 (2010), 82 (2009), 81 (2008), 82 (2007), 81 (2006)
With Albany: 73 (2005)
With U. North Dakota: 37 (2004), 39 (2003)
High School: 67 (2002), 59 (2001)
Now, I won’t pretend to know the length of Minnesota’s high school seasons. Beyond that, there isn’t a lengthy absence of any sort, with the “high water mark” being 7 games missed in the 2004-2005 season.
Getting back to my presentation, however…. I don’t see a reason for Parise to take a long-term deal with such a “tail” on it. I don’t know that the NHL will accept those deals going forward now that they’ve established at least a partial precedent in the Kovalchuk case (not to mention the ongoing investigations of Luongo, Hossa, and Savard, and Pronger). And I don’t know that the NHLPA would be particularly happy to see one of their stars sign such a contract whose tail is still in his “late prime” years when he could go back on the market and establish a better baseline for other, similar players.
cap hit between 4.8 and 5.2, which is possible despite your immediate dismissal.
Sure, it’s possible. It is also possible that I’ll win the lottery, or marry a smoking hot lingerie model in the next few months, or that John will get his unicorn. I just wouldn’t hold your breath over it — there’s a heck of a long way between “possible” and “likely to happen”.
Exhibit A: So because you can find a handful of contracts that are dissimilar, it means that one would be rejected?
Rene Bourque signed a 6 year contract where he makes 4, 4, 3, 4, 2.5, 2 for a cap hit of $3.33m.
A few years ago Scott Hartnell signed a 6 year deal where he made 5.2, 4.7, 4.2, 4.2, 3.7, 3.2 for a cap hit of $4.2m.
Keith Duncan signed a 13 year deal that starts at 8m and relatively slowly drops to 1.5m.
There were three problems with the Kovalchuk contract that was rejected; that so much of it was paid out in the first 10 years, that years were tacked on at an extremely low salary to bring the cap hit down, and the ending age of the player at the expiration of the contract. As a whole, it was deemed a “retirement contract.” Nothing about that proposed Parise contract is in any way similar, except one might be able to argue that too much is paid out in the first few years… but there are gobs of contracts like that, not just the retirement contracts like Hossa’s and Luongo’s that people pull out for comparison to the original Kovalchuk contract, so that argument can be countered pretty easily.
So what is it about that contract that would earn an immediate rejection?
Exhibit B: And this has what exactly to do with your assertion that the contract, if offered and accepted, would be immediate rejected?
Exhibit C: See Exhibit B.
Why doesn’t it lend itself to longevity?
Because the kid takes a beating by bigger defensemen night in and night out while he earns his paycheck in front of and around the net.
Just because he hasn’t suffered an injury doesn’t mean he won’t, and we’re not just talking about injuries here, we’re talking about the wear and tear of taking Pronger’s elbows to the face 6 games a year, and Boogaard’s stick in the back 6 games a year, and Mike Richards punching him in the head while he’s laying on the ice 6 games a year, etc.
Exhibit D: He’s also in his early and mid 20’s, a time in a young man’s life when the body can take more punishment and recover faster from it. He’s a few seasons from 30… that magical age when a youngin who used to be able to pound a 12 pack of cheap beer with his Taco Bell for breakfast lunch and dinner and wake up after 3 hours of sleep feeling no ill effects now suddenly can hardly get up in the morning after two beers and staying up past 11pm.
I don’t see a reason for Parise to take a long-term deal with such a "tail" on it
I didn’t say he would. I said he could, and it would put his cap hit in the range the previous poster suggested. We don’t know what the future holds.
It is also possible that I’ll win the lottery
Only if you play it.
or marry a smoking hot lingerie model in the next few months
Unlikely. You lack a sense of humor and have too abrasive a personality.
or that John will get his unicorn
John doesn’t particularly want a unicorn.
I just wouldn’t hold your breath over it — there’s a heck of a long way between "possible" and "likely to happen".
I’m not really arguing that it will happen, and I personally think Parise’s contract will probably run about 7m/year with a cap hit about $7m, so there’s no need to get condescending about it.
Our disagreement is that that contract, regardless of whether it would ever even be offered or accepted, would be rejected, as you put it, “[in] about nine-tenths of a second…under the same guidelines they rejected the Kovalchuk deal.”
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I really can’t see any sort of cap hit lower than Mike Richards’, personally. That contract seems to me like the best one in sports right now.
by red army line on Aug 27, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
For the record, I think the NHL ought to be investigating the Duncan Keith contract the same way they are Hossa, Pronger, Savard, and Luongo.
I brought up Toews and Kane, Crosby and Malkin, and Marian Gaborik because I consider them similar players to Parise. In the least, I think they are more similar than the examples of Legwand and Bourque and Hartnell, in terms of talent and what they mean to their teams (well, maybe not Legwand). If I’m Parise’s agent, the five contracts I mentioned are the ones I use as comparables in an arbitration hearing, or in discussions with Lou.
With the Kovalchuk precedent now established, I think the NHL would take a long look at contracts with a low “tail” and a high payout in the early years of a contract. Legwand going from $5.5 to $3.5 is a significant difference, but none of the contract years deviate more than a million from its cap hit. Same issue with Hartnell. Parise’s salary going from $7.5 million to $1 million (at age 34) is a far higher difference, and could easily raise red flags with an NHL eager to stamp out that type of deal — to me, that deal wouldn’t pass the “smell test” as it seems quite possible that it would be bought out in the later years so Parise could sign a fresh deal for “market value”. While the NHL has let an awful lot pass in recent years, I’d be concerned that they’re a giant beginning to stir…. and for those who believe the League has an anti-NJ bias, this would seem to them the equivalent of waving a red cape in front of a charging bull.
I will grant you that Parise could be hurt playing his style, but that covers a lot of “ifs” and a lot of variables. There is nothing saying that he can’t change his game in small ways to minimize that risk without compromising his effectiveness. There is nothing saying that he can’t find a new linemate to do a lot of the dirty work for him, allowing him to better pick his spots (Clarkson could do some of that dirty work if he was on that line). While his natural talents will begin to decline with age, veteran savvy can make up for a lot. He might not be a $7 million/year player at 34…. but I don’t see where he’d be a $1 million/year player at that age, either.
He could also get hurt in any number of other ways, both on and off the ice. Many of said ways having nothing to do with his style of play, to boot. I won’t go into my stylistic and over-dramatic prose in suggesting particular disasters that might befall him (or that have befallen other NHL players in recent years).
To segue somewhat to another subject discussed recently on this site…. if the NHLPA is serious about gearing up for a fight (and that’s my take on the hiring of Donald Fehr), the League may very well dig in its heels on any number of issues. Various forms of cap-circumventing contracts would be one of the first battles I’d pick if I were Gary Bettman, especially with the recent arbitration win.
With the Kovalchuk precedent now established, I think the NHL would take a long look at contracts with a low "tail" and a high payout in the early years of a contract.
There is no “tail.” There is a trailing off of salary paralleling the likely decline of the player’s skills and role on the team.
The high payout is nothing like Kovalchuk’s or any of the other obvious circumventions that get all their money up front and massively drop off to nothing.
$29m in the first four years is a nice payout, but it’s 62% of the contract’s value in 44% of the term. That’s not particularly egregious. $35m in five years is 74% of the value in 56% of the term. $40m in seven years is 85% of the value in 67% of the term. $44m in eight years is 94% in 88%.
none of the contract years deviate more than a million from its cap hit
I don’t see that as an issue, or indeed, a realistic standard by which the League could restrict a team. Koivu’s recent contract, Scott Gomez, and both Malkin and Crosby’s contracts all defy that standard to different degrees.
Same issue with Hartnell. Parise’s salary going from $7.5 million to $1 million (at age 34) is a far higher difference
Though the Parise deal is longer and signed when he was older, so a greater deviation and lower ending salary would be expected.
to me, that deal wouldn’t pass the "smell test" as it seems quite possible that it would be bought out in the later years so Parise could sign a fresh deal for "market value".
What’s the market value on a 35 year old smallish player who’s an excellent back checker, but has no real sniping skill to speak of and who relies on taking a beating around the net to get the tough goals?
I will grant you that Parise could be hurt playing his style, but that covers a lot of "ifs" and a lot of variables.
I think staying healthy enough to maintain superior contributions to that age in this sport, particularly for a player who plays and relies on as physical a game as he does, is an even greater gamble.
There is nothing saying that he can’t change his game in small ways to minimize that risk without compromising his effectiveness.
How so? He’s not going to suddenly develop a slap shot, or even a good wrist shot from the dots. He excels around the net because he’s learned to play to his strengths. Sure he can get better, but he’s never going to be a threat from more than 10 feet or so.
Again… I’m not arguing that this is going to happen, as I’m actually prone to agree that he’ll be worth more than $1m at age 35. I think that aspect of it is becoming entangled with the original one, that the theoretical contract would be rejected.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Aging stars
Well, for the sake of making an argument that a player can change his game at a more advanced age and still be extremely valuble to a club…. how about Scott Stevens? He nearly won a Norris Trophy with the Devils at the age of 30 (in 1994) with the best offensive season the franchise has ever seen from a defenseman: 18-60-78. After that, he went from a two-way force to a mostly defensive player, at least as far as his numbers demonstrated. He never again put up anything resembling the offensive numbers he did that year (1999-2000 with 8-21-29, and 2000-2001 with 9-22-31 were his highest numbers after the 1994-1995 lockout)…. but that hardly made a difference in his value to the team.
Another case I’ll offer Patrick Elias — an all-NHL 1st-team winger in 2001 when he was an elite goal-scorer. He isn’t the prolific scorer he was at the age of 25, although he’s had many fine seasons since then. However, he’s become a better all-around player, a team leader, one of our go-to-guys on the penalty kill, and even moved to center when the team had a need there. Whether or not he was a good center and good on face-offs is another story, but he took on the role the team needed him to play.
I’m not saying Parise will be a 40-goal scorer at 35, unless he develops that wrist shot or slap shot that you think isn’t going to happen — for that matter, while I doubt he’d ever have much of a slap shot, I think the wrist shot is something that could be developed. All the same, that doesn’t mean he can’t contribute in meaningful and significant ways to the club a decade from now.
I think that aspect of it is becoming entangled with the original one, that the theoretical contract would be rejected.
I cross back and forth over the line between those who think the League has it out for the Devils, and those who think it is an Oliver Stone-class conspiracy theory. Given the circus that has been the Kovalchuk situation, I’d prefer to err on the side of caution and not give the NHL another opening to come after the Devils on contract matters. Moreso given I don’t believe the Devils would simply get off with a slap on the wrist (i.e., a rejected contract) for a second offense.
Now which player is better Parise or Kovy?
It is an interesting questiong, even though we will more than likely sign them both (knock on wood) so that is not really an issue.
Now Kovy is the second best goal scorer in the world. He has put up 6 40+ goal seasons in a row. The flashyness of his game and the sales he brings in are really only beaten by Crosby and Ovetchkin
His flaw appears to be his defensive game. Some also say he chokes in playoffs although, people said the same about former Atlanta Thrasher Marian Hossa before he went to the finals 23 times in a row with 3 differant teams.
Parise is one of the best 2 way players in the game. He has put up 4 30 goal seasons in a row. Last year he put up 45 goals. He plays constantly with a high level of effort.
Parise is small amd that combined with his style of play (as Elesias stated) will likely have a shorter career than Kovalchuk. He also does not appear to have the talent level of kovalchuk although he makes up for it in effort and heart.
Both players play a differant style of game so it is not easy to say who is the better. When push come to shove I believe that Kovy is better. He has a more exciting game and whle his defensive game is not as strong his offense more than makes up for it.
It is an ineresting dabate and I could see arguements for both being the better player.
I think Kovalchuk has more tools, but Parise is better.
the sales he brings in are really only beaten by Crosby andOvetchkinOvechkin
Well, you really need a winner if you’re not in a great market. None of them brought in any fans when the teams were struggling.
Parise is small amd that combined with his style of play (as Elesias stated) will likely have a shorter career than Kovalchuk.
On the other hand, if you’re fast and you play a responsible defensive game there will always be room for you. Martin St. Louis is the perfect example.
his offense more than makes up for it.
Kovalchuk is really intriguing. He’s a different style of goal scorer than most of the other top scorers like Ovechkin, Gaborik, Semin, etc. I guess I can best put it in EA Sports terms:
Ovechkin-PWF + DNG + SNP + GRN
Gaborik-SNP + DNG + PLY
Semin-DNG + SNP + TWF
Kovalchuk-SNP
(Parise- SNP + GRN + PLY + TWF)
Kovalchuk, moreover, isn’t a puck possession demon like Semin, Ovechkin, or Crosby. He just takes the puck and scores, but he’s not a Corsi-moving forward, if that makes sense. His ability to get open in good scoring areas and his speed is basically his entire career (which isn’t too bad—Brett Hull was similar, minus the speed).
These next links will load slowly, by the way (they are Timeonice scripts showing breakdowns of how a player played with each of his teammates. If you look at the link, “shawn=9” would mean #9, Parise. #18 is Kovy).
Check out row 17. That’s Kovalchuk’s stat line from his NJD time. Now look at row 9 for Parise. The worst Corsi% I see for Parise among players he played with in decent sample size is a .509, which is excellent. It seems like Parise can do better than break even regularly. The other players in the league that can do that are Ovechkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, and a few others, a really good group of players. So not only does Parise bring the offense in similar numbers, but he brings much more territorial dominance.
by red army line on Aug 27, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
For what outsiders' opinions are worth
There was serious talk on J.R. that Parise should have been a Selke finalist and that he’s the second best winger in the world at the moment. That may be overselling him, since you guys almost certainly know better, but that’s just how Parise is perceived in Washington.
by red army line on Aug 27, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a tough argument. The only guys you can argue are Dany Heatley, Kovy and maybe Patrick Kane (because of how young he is and the ceiling he may have), but beyond that even guys like Rick Nash and Daniel Sedin are not quite at that level.
Heatley probably not, Kovalchuk like I said above is kind of different, and Nash is a beast and in the conversation too. He’s basically a high-scoring checking line player, complete with checking-line-esque center. I can’t remember if I said here that Nash is probably a good 40-40-80 bet perenially on a team that actually has good offensive talent and plays towards that.
by red army line on Aug 30, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It is hard to rate great players on lousy teams, but we have seen Parise put up 94 points playing minutes against top lines in a defensive system. I could not see Nash doing the same.
I could see Parise a perennial 50 50 100 player if he was playing in an offensive system with a top league center.
I wouldn’t say lousy. They made the playoffs 2 seasons ago and had a terrible sophomore season with Mason. They still have Nash, Huselius, Klesla, Tyutin, and Filatov coming up. And they have a new coach in Arniel. They’re a team coming up.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 30, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
They look headed in the right direction now, but before everyone was just waiting until they could get the hell out.
by red army line on Aug 31, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Just a heads-up…I’m sure most of you realize that Lou thinks long-term. He has to think ahead to the last season of the player who is signed the longest. That’s my opinion, I mean, a general manager has to look ahead to who is signed for how long, what types of players are available when, for example, next off-season there are a lot of defensemen that will be free agents. If Lou wanted to think long-term, he could sign a guy (i.e. Volchenkov for 6 years) and prepare to sign another similar player to fill in when that deal expires. However, depending on the status of the team at that point, that may not be the approach.
This isn’t NHL 10 or 11 where you automatically sign the top 5 free agents every off-season and trade the superstars once you get bored with them…
Yankees in baseball, Giants in football and Devils in hockey. It's that simple. I have no off-season.

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