Official: Arbitrator Sustains NHL's Rejection of Ilya Kovalchuk Contract
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 7:26 PM EDT
in Devils Issues, Views & Analysis
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It took a little time past 5 PM EST, but the word broke out later. First by Liz Mullen of the Sports Business Journal:
Breaking--Arbitrator rules in League's favor in Kovalchuk case, source says. #NHL
And later confirmed by both Nick Kypreos of Sportsnet and Craig Custance of the Sporting News TSN.
Hearing the grievance denied.
Got confirmation from a league source that the arbitrator ruled in favor of the NHL in the Kovalchuk case.
Well, that's that for now. That means Article 11.6(iii) kicks in, making the $102 million over 17 year contract with the New Jersey Devils void. The Devils have the $6 million cap hit removed; and Ilya Kovalchuk is now an unrestricted free agent. No word on whether there's anything else to follow, nor any details on what Richard Bloch wrote in his decision. All I have is this short report from NHL.com saying the ruling was done because it was circumvention of the salary cap. Which doesn't say too much other than that it confirms the initial reports on Twitter.
I'm not being daft, I don't see how it's circumvention, but I'm sure further information will come out later explaining it. I suppose I have to eat my share of crow given that I argued that it wasn't in the past weeks. Clearly, based on the result, I was wrong. So I'd like to know how I'm wrong. I'm sure there has to be something, because the last I checked, the "spirit" of a contract doesn't really mean anything as opposed to the actual contract itself. But perhaps that's a faulty assumption of my own.
Needless to say, a lot of Devils fans are unhappy about the decision. Especially considering that nothing was (or likely will be) done to Tampa Bay for the Vincent Lecavalier contract; Vancouver for the Roberto Luongo contract; Philadelphia for the Chris Pronger contract; Chicago for the Marian Hossa contract; Calgary for the Miikka Kiprusoff contract; or Detroit for both the Henrik Zetterberg and Johan Franzen contracts. It may be silly to claim the NHL has it in for the Devils, but in the heat of the moment, it's a tempting thought. In fact, even though I argued against re-signing Kovalchuk, I'm certainly annoyed and baffled by this turn of events.
That said, I'm going to hold off on the snark and rage and what-have-you until there are details as to why the rejection was sustained. Right now, the situation is simple: Kovalchuk is an unrestricted free agent. The Devils can re-sign him to a different deal; or he can go elsewhere. That's the reality, let's consider the next step. Do the Devils re-sign him and for what? Do the Devils let him walk?
Feel free to discuss the matter in the comments, but please do be civil about it. The rules still apply regardless of how frustrating this news may be. UPDATES AFTER THE JUMP
It's been 2 hours since the word got out, and so more information was revealed. Thanks to the commenters who linked to it.
From kellyn, Lou Lamoriello has made a statement on the Devils' official website:
“We have reviewed and respect Arbitrator Bloch's ruling in the Kovalchuk matter. We also note and appreciate his finding that nothing in his opinion should be read as suggesting that either the club or Ilya Kovalchuk operated in bad faith or on the basis of any assumption other than that the Standard Player Contract was fully compliant with the CBA. That has been our consistent position throughout.
“While we do not currently have a contract with Ilya Kovalchuk, discussions have resumed and we are hopeful that a contract will be reached that meets with the principles in Arbitrator Bloch's award and the NHL's approval."
Some say it's bold. Some say it's defiant. I'd say that it appears the Devils would like to keep Kovalchuk regardless. We'll see.
From Kevin Sellathamby, the Sporting News (Craig Custance) has an excerpt from the ruling:
Excerpts from arbitrator Richard Bloch's ruling, obtained by SportingNews.com:
"In this case, the record strongly supports the claim this contract is "intended to, or has the effect" of defeating or circumventing the Salary Cap provisions of the CBA. The overall structure of this SPC reflects not so much the hope that Mr. Kovalchuk will be playing in those advanced years, but rather the expectation that he will not. This is a long contract --17 years -- the longest in NHL history. That, in itself, poses no contractual problem, for the reasons discussed above. But Kovalchuk is 27 years old, and the agreement contemplates his playing until just short of his 44th birthday. That is not impossible, but it is, at the least, markedly rare. Currently, only one player in the League has played past 43and, over the past 20 years only 6 of some 3400 players have played to 42...."
I want to believe there's more than this because I'm interpreting this as meaning the NHL can reject a deal if they just feel it's unreasonable that the player will play at a later age. If I'm a player, I can't be happy that the NHL can take a deal I agreed to with a team and say "no" because they won't think I'll be playing later. But that's my take, feel free to interpret it differently.
Also, insert your own references to Marian Hossa and Roberto Luongo here.
The NHLPA released a short statement. Tom Gulitti tweeted it in here and here; thanks to kellyn for posting it in the comments.
NHLPA statement: "The NHLPA is disappointed with the arbitrator's ruling to uphold the NHL's rejection of the contract between the NJ Devs...
"...and Ilya Kovlachuk. The NHLPA is currently reviewing the decision and will have no further comment at this time."
I don't know what they could be ruling, but when the details come out, I have a sinking feeling I'm going to be "disappointed" by the NHLPA. I hope I'm wrong.
UPDATE #2: James Mirtle has a two crucial tweets from the ruling itself. Here's the first:
There is nothing about the Devils or Kovalchuk being fined for circumvention in the decision.
Here's the second, a clarification:
Let me rephrase that: Decision says there is no finding of bad faith or intent to circumvent cap by Devils/Kovalchuk.
I hope he's right on both counts. Details are still coming out.
Please feel free to add additional links and comments in the comments. Remember to follow the rules everyone.
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did you just write that?
Joshd12
Brock University
BA. Sports Management, 2014
BA. Recreation and Leisure Studies, 2011
Yes. I don’t know how I didn’t?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
probably had it waiting
or he’s just that good. if not, can we see the kovalchuk acceptance one you had ready, just so I can hide in a fantasy world?
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
No, that’s 12 years $62.5 million
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully they’ll release the arbitrator’s opinion to shed some light on the specific logic used to arrive at this ruling. It may help clarify the matter for those on both sides of the argument, and more importantly, for the GMs.
Of course, knowing the NHL, we’ll never see the full ruling.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
Sometimes I hate being right.
I really don’t have a horse in this race, aside from the fact that I’d really like to understand the ruling.
Its the same situation you have with rules being enforced seemingly randomly during games. We just want to know what is right and what isn’t, but the NHL keeps us in the dark.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
OK I just dunked my head in cold water
So I came back to earth now…
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it seems that the “new” NHL has it in for the Devils and the bad calls will continue in the coming season. This ruling would never be made against Toronto, Detroit or Montreal ?
Nah
Nothing will happen to Tampa Bay and just look at that Lecavalier contract.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Even then the cap hit’s massive (around $8 Million/year)
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
come on
we can’t put our pride aside (not intended) for a minute and admit we crossed a line.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
by S.Stevens on Aug 9, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
NO.
We can’t because there is no solid line, its an arbitrary line in the sand that Bettman decided to draw at will with out any legal backing and managed to get it upheld.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
logical is the eye of the looker and since it was held up it’s by definition legal
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
just because it isn’t one doesn’t make it the other, it is possible for it to be neither since arbitration doesn’t require any legal backing.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Uh, no.
Principles make law; laws don’t make principle.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The arbitrator made an arbitrary decision as did the NHL.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Crossed the line? All is fair in love and war.
Devils saw a possibility and tested it. doesn’t mean they were wrong.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
and that’s why I think a fine would be uncalled for
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
I disagree with that
The NHL has made it’s dislike of these deals well known and the Hossa deal didn’t pass muster by much.
You’ve had decisions go your way on other things as well. Talking like that makes you seem like Flyer fans and I don’t think anyone wants that
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
by Maverides on Aug 9, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This ruling would never be made against Toronto, Detroit or Montreal ?
C’mon now.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
You're probably right.
Its decisions like this that makes it hard for the average fan not to think that the “fix is in” during regular season games in which questionable calls are made.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
big question is...
can we sign him? The NHL can now levy fines on the Devils which affect the cap, true? And as a Devils fan firmly in the NHL has it in for us camp, if they can do it, they probably will.
We can re-sign him again. He’s a unrestricted free agent.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
TG says a source....
Only wanted the contract to be rejected and no penalties were to be given out to both sides.. Looking for the link now….
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Here it is....
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks
hadn’t seen that since TG crashed for me right after the decision. Hopefully that’s the case.
That would be oddly generous by the league. And further cement that this whole fracas was to make a statement.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Teams know now...
That they will be rejected. Try them a second time and they’ll get hit hard. This was just an example I’m guessing.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems like the logical thing
considering everyone involved figured they were in the right. I’m guessing at most it’s a draft pick but I wouldn’t be surprised to see nothing at all
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Good news.
A source said previously, however, that the NHL was only interested in blocking the contract and not in supplemental penalties against the team and the player.
Now we can reconstruct the contract.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Link Please
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You can find it in my link.. Its TG's.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Do think he will except less money?
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he has repeatedly stated that money was not a factor.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope
He’s shown he wants the NHL, the cup, and that he believes the devils can offer him that when he chose to sign this contract.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Exactly, thats what I was thinking. He said all of these things at the press conference.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's just
keep making ridiculous contract offers until the league is willing to admit openly that they messed up. This is biased, it’s wrong, and it’s hypocritical. The Devils cannot let this stand, with Lecavalier, Pronger, Hossa, Luongo, and a long list of other circumventing contracts still in effect.
I’m not going to lie, I would laugh heartily if the Devils come back with a $90 million over 15 year deal. Totally unlikely given that I’m sure Kovalchuk’s not going to take less money.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
remember the possible penaty.
even if we don’t get one now, trying one of these again we will.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
At this point
I don’t care. If we can’t sign Kovy, let’s send a message that the Devils don’t roll over when we’re getting screwed. Hypocrisy is probably the thing that makes me the most angry, and this is by far the worst case of it I’ve ever seen in the NHL.
+1000
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I would love it, and I think $98M over 15 years should work. Still $6.5M for Cap Hit.
Send the NHL the contract and ask for their approval before ‘signing’ it with Kovalchuk
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I heard a report saying the Devils will shave off 2 years....
Can’t remember where though.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Well if the original story was correct
the Devils knew the last contract would get rejected beforehand so I would assume they’d know about any new one as well
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
I bet they're already working on a re-structured deal... Hopefully.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
So do I. The Devils are too good of an organization not to have a back-up plan.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing I forgot to point out in the post
What I’m fearful of now is how the PA actually handled this case. I’m sure they’ll come up with a statement now, but given that I couldn’t tell you who it’s coming from, that’s not a good sign.
And I’m sure this will be brought up in 2012. Eep.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Looks like the NHLPA might get crushed in the impending CBA.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Not a big deal really
There needs to be limits on contract length and changes to how cap hit is determined to close this loophole. My biggest point with this was the precedent set by all the other contracts that WON’T be denied and are already going.
while you are probably correct
they never tried the others and if the wording down below is correct those would have been killed too.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Still nothing official from the Devils
I don’t see anything on their site. Would be nice to get their opinion.
by Devilssection21fan on Aug 9, 2010 5:58 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe they already know something that we don't.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Bloch's Comment
via TG Twitter: Arbitrator Bloch says " this is a retirement contract" in his report. said deal “well beyond the typical retirement age”
As opposed to the one year shorter deals with all those other guys? Kovalchuk’s deal took him to 44 and all the other ones we’ve spoken of took them to 41 or 42. This is outrageously biased!
1) Can you link to the tweet?
2) I’m in disbelief. If that’s the reason, every Devils fan has the right to be livid. That’s such a ridiculous reason.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
hmmm makes you wonder if he would spike the others
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
I found it interesting that in his ruling, it appears he didn’t address the Hossa or Luongo contracts, and merely compared the Kovalchuk contract to the rules. Without using those contracts as context, the Kovalchuk contract does look pretty egregious based on his interpretation of the CBA.
I suppose that is, in some regard, how it would be handled in a court of law. You can’t argue that you are innocent because someone else who was guilty of a crime wasn’t tried. However, the Kovalchuk contract establishes a precedent that Bloch, or a future arbitrator can cite in future arbitration hearings of this sort.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Aug 10, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually
it looks like when the NHLPA brought up the other contracts it was countered by the NHL saying “We are still investigating those” which took them out of consideration
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Based on what? I NHLPA’s argument does not, at any point, mention other contracts registered by the NHL as a basis for approving this contract.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Aug 10, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
NHLPA article 8 is apparently the other contracts
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
article exhibit. Its mentioned on page 19 of the ruling.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
Ahh I see. Indeed it does.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Aug 10, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
His reasoning can't be the retirement age!!!
that would anger me a million times more, they can’t prove that he won’t complete the contract!
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Seriously.
40 is OK
41 is OK
42 is OK
43 is OK
Turning 44 in April at the end isn’t OK.
And there’s no language in Article 50 limiting SPC length.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
This is nuts
Well beyond the typical retirement age? What the hell does that even mean? Age 37 is “well beyond the typical retirement age”. Is max contract length now 10 years?
We need to see this decision to understand the logic. But that tweet above is VERY disappointing.
by Devilssection21fan on Aug 9, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
By Bloch's logic:
Lydstrom and Chelios should not be able to get a contract at all because they would be taken well past the typical retirement age…
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
what he’s saying is that you can’t tell that they’d play that long 17 years in the future. Plus those would be 35+ contracts which have different rules
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Those 35+ contracts don’t have term limits either.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
but the cap hit doesn’t disappear when they retire which means the cap isn’t circumvented
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
personally
I think the Devils and Kovalchuk should now sue the NHL for age discrimination. They’re essentially saying he CAN’T play until he’s 44.
Go Devils
Go Jets
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I’d need to crack open my textbook, but I’m pretty sure you need to be at least 40 years old to file suit for age discrimination.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Aug 10, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know how to link tweets. I hate twitter and wouldn’t be going there if this weren’t so important.
Just link
the twitter page. No need to link the tweet itself. If its recent it’ll be one of the first things people see when they go to it.
Don’t do this, link to the timestamp of the tweet so people don’t have to search for whatever it is you’re referring to.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
The timestamp of the tweet is a permalink to it.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Very good
And I’m still shocked that’s being a reason. There has to be more.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Not really that ridiculous; one forward (Gordie Howe) in NHL history has played at age 44. While the number that have played up to 41 is small, it’s a lot larger than 1.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
One: Kovalchuk turns 44 in mid-April, the end of the last season of the deal.
Two: This presumes the NHL can figure out when one will retire – not exactly something the players want to hear.
But we’ll agree to disagree.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
The wording is vague enough
that they don’t need to decide when he will retire just that there is a very very small chance he will make the whole length.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
based on injury probabilities, I’d be willing to bet none of the other long-term contracts recently signed have more than a small chance they will make their entire length either, so that shouldn’t be a valid reason.
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Go Jets
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While we can’t be sure, it may have been enough to pass muster with the arbitrator if Kovalchuk had a NMC through the end of his contract. That would give the Devils no way of actually moving him off the roster late in the contract, which might have provided enough cover for the NHLPA to successfully argue the case. As the contract is currently written, the NJD can basically decide whether they want to take the cap hit for IK or not in the late years.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Aug 10, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
They can’t necessarily figure out when the player will retire, but since the only one in history was Gordie Howe, a special case if ever there was one, they can say with reasonable certainty that the player isn’t going to play until he’s 44.
The other examples of old players, Chelios, Hasek, Roloson, all of those guys play not-forward. It’s not impossible, but so far it’s been vanishingly unlikely for a forward to go past his 42nd birthday, much less his 44th.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
According to quanthockey, although the data seems to be through the 05-06 season, even though the article indicates it was updated after this season ended, the average career for a forward is actually LONGER than that of a goaltender.
Also, the number of players who played until they were 43 (because Kovalchuk won’t be 44 when the regular season ends after the denied 17 year contract would have ended), is thirteen.
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Go Jets
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The NHL is now required
to set 44 as the mandatory retirement age for NHL players because this is the only contract that would have gone that far. Apparently 43 is OK but not 44.
No
you just can’t say that you will play at 44 when you are in your 20’s. If this was a forty year old with a four year deal there wouldn’t be a problem.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
But
That would be impacted by the 35+ rule anyway, and the cap hit would stay on regardless.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
which is why
they put the 35+ rule in effect. It’s one of the rules that they think these contracts get around
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Ok
Well that really ticks me off then, I cant wait to see the entire report. Boy, this is a scary quote.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I don't believe it...
Never heard of Chelios? Anyone? Gordie Howe even?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Those were different circumstances though.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
But they are the exceptions two people doesn’t make typical
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
But it directly calls the other contracts signed into contradiction. Luongo is 43 when his contract ends, Hossa 42 and many months. Same for Pronger and the others.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I agree
we’ll have to see what the full text of the ruling is (if we get it)
and if in a few days or weeks the NHL decides to try another one. I doubt they will but it could happen
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
But there are other aggravating factors: the drop off is steeper with Kovy, the tail is longer, the amount earned during the probably playing years is much higher as a percentage of overall contract value….and this leaves aside the fact that playing at 42, while rare, is much more likely than playing at 44.
And while we’re at it, the League is not biased against the Devils.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
What makes you so sure?
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Known as trap...
Defense first team with Lou, NJ, Hasn’t thrown away a chunk of history to get top draft picks every year….
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree 100%!
So now the NHL can determine the career-span of an athlete?
all the other ones we’ve spoken of took them to 41 or 42
This is why I hope Lou has a 14-year, $98 million contract in his back pocket for Kovy with the same relative shape (just a slightly shorter tail, of course). Only an extra million in cap hit, and it would make it very difficult for the NHL to reject that one when they’ve let Hossa, Pronger, et al go through.
Lets go to a 15 year, still Kovy could retire at 41 at contract’s end, for the same $98M, $6.5M Cap hit
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Please.. And today too
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So why not lower the age limit on the contract?
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
well
In fairness to Bloch (NOT to the NHL, to Bloch) those weren’t arbitrated.
I think either the other contracts should be invalidated around the league too—either these deals are or they aren’t.
And maybe the NHL should give some guidance on what they think is ok.
Given the lack of the above, it’s very hard not to see this as a “different rules for the Devils” situation. Just like the trapezoid, etc. etc. etc.
Then why not just make the contract a straight shot all the way? 17 years, at $6M per year. Why the need to front load it so much that the last 6 (?) are at the league minimum? Hasn’t that been the issue the whole time? That those last group of years are simply there to off-set the cap hit from the first 11?
Color me Livid
That is the most bananas ruling I have ever heard.
Ok, well, in response, it goes like this then.
Restructure the contract to shave off two years, and it falls in line with the vast majority of the other signed deals.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Shave off two years, bring the $550k years up to $1M, and bring the $11.5M years down to $10M. If Kovy doesn’t like that he can go to the KHL for all I care.
No need to even change the back-end, according to the ruling, you just have to lower the ‘retirement’ age of the contract. 15 year deal means Kovy is 41 when it ends.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Yes, but
Just shaving off two years increases the cap hit. With this ridiculous reasoning for the ruling, there is no reason for us to have to take a higher cap hit. Shape the contract a little differently and keep the cap hit at $6M.
That would be dependent on Kovalchuk accepting less money.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Considering what Kovy turned down in Russia,
I’m hopeful that he may do just that
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
I don't care
The Devils didn’t do anything wrong with the currently rejected contract and they shouldn’t have to take more of a cap hit because the legal is full of hypocritical losers that are more biased than Ranger fans.
Facts are a wonderful thing. Use them. Bloch’s ruling is final and personally I think it was the correct one. You pushed the loophole to far and got burned for it, I’m Lou has a back up plan so there is no reason for you to act so irrationally other than blind homerism.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
I think he has every right to vent.
Lay off him.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the NHLPA can appeal to a real judge if they wanted to.
They won’t, but they could.
there is no reason for you to act so irrationally other than blind homerism.
And there is no reason for you to call him out for it except schadenfreude. It’s a Devils’ blog and some Devils’ fans are going to be understandably upset.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Possibly
but honestly I don’t see that happening. Any other structure to get to a $6M cap hit would require less money from Kovy, or an even crazier structure which the league would once again reject.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
You sound like you're hoping your team gets him. Are you a Devils fan?
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You sound like you’re hoping your team gets him.
Not at all. Not trolling, and Yes I’m a Leafs fan that has nothing to do with it. He’s not going anywhere but NJ.
Can you think of a structure in which Kovy doesn’t accept less money or the contract structure doesn’t get crazier?
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
No. I cannot.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 10, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But you’re not Lou :-)
Go Devils
Go Jets
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Can't even think of a lucid and calm comment!
Is the NHL going to review previously signed “career cotracts” and possibly overturn them? What;s good for the goose (the Devils) ought to be good for the gander (the rest of the NHL)! There seems to be some kind of inequity in their singling out the Kovy contract when so many other similar contracts exist!
You’d have to imagine the Devils will try restructuring the deal. I think that is why the doomed press conference was held; it essentially holds Kovalchuk to his word. He couldn’t sign with another team at this point without destroying his reputation. So the real question is: How big will the new cap hit be?
I hate that the Devils are caught up in this circus. It’s so unlike their usual way of doing business.
I also hate the cap. Most “hockey talk” nowadays, especially in the offseason, is really just money talk, accounting.
Hopefully this will resolve soon and we can concentrate on the part of hockey that happens on the ice.
I agree. The Devils have always been a prudent and effective business organization.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
This one says that the NHL argued that there is no way the contract would be fulfilled in full and that was why it was rejected.
by kellyn on Aug 9, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The PA couldn’t argue against that convincingly? Really?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Wow
I should run the NHLPA because I would have won this case easily. I would have ripped the league a new one and they would have been begging for me to stop.
No, you would not have. You seriously refuse to see the other side of this argument. The ruling is based on a preponderance of the evidence meaning that the arbitrator is allowed to consider everything relevant and come to a decision on who he thinks is correct. Oh, and by the way the argument that this has happened before really doesn’t matter to the arbitrator because that isn’t what he is ruling on here. The NHL should have blocked those deals, but that doesn’t mean that this deal doesn’t have the effect of circumventing the salary cap which is all he is focusing on in this case.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
WHERE IS OUR OWNER AND GM
I know they have thier hands full, but it would be nice to hear from Lou or Jeff on this..
What are they going to say?
I would be speechless by this.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
They could say they are disappointed but will continue to work out a deal with Kovalchuk that will meet league standards.
But what if its a lie? That wouldn't look good.
Thank god I’m not Lou or Jeff on this one..
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
They probably just got the news and are sorting things out.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I dont think you would want to hear from them now. I know if I had a microphone in front of me and someone asked the ‘right’ question, Id lose it.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Breaking News
A Jelly Jar just hit the wall.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
LOL
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
And that’s how to make funny joke (and get a rec)
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you kind sir
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The price of jam just went up $.25 in New Jersey.
We should all go out and slam a jelly jar for Lou
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Well make it a holiday!
August 9th: Jelly Jar Day. Every kind of jelly you can think of is free.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one too busy tearing my eyes out to laugh?
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Jeff's taking the high road and throwing eggs at Bettman's NJ house.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Trying
to remain calm using humor! Jelly Jar Day, August 9, 2010!
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I'm in a good mood now since the jokes
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The New Contract Should Be...
12 year deal. One year for $90 Million, then 11 years for $1 Million. That’ll show em.
by njdss4 on Aug 9, 2010 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
ROFL
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
-Michael Strahan
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Same as above
that WOULD be a circumvention, something about the 50% rule would be a killer, since the average of the first 2 years would be 45.5M, no year-to-year reduction could be less than 22.75M. If I understand correctly how that works.
Go Devils
Go Jets
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Bettman!!!
The worst part of the playoffs, or ANY major NHL function, is to have to listen to the God-awful whining voice!!!!!
Or watch his twitches when he gets booed.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Just imagine
How big the boos will be next time Bettman steps foot in New Jersey. We should all bring Jelly Jars to The Rock and throw them at him.
When he delivers the cup to NJ this Spring??!!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Jeff's throwing eggs at it now..
Lou’s throwing jelly. Jeff’s got eggs. Great tandom
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm... What flavor?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone heard from John
You still alive?
Joshd12
Brock University
BA. Sports Management, 2014
BA. Recreation and Leisure Studies, 2011
Probably writing his next response, or stickin his head in a freezer to chill out!
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
He should try to cold water.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Eating and waiting for things to calm down. I know I got something wrong but I’m going to be shocked if the arbitrator and the NHL just drew a line in the sand on judging how long a player can play.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Re: Retirement Age
This ruling guarantees only the Kovy contract will be denied, not the contracts under investigation. In other words, NHL sort of lost- front loading contracts is legal under the CBA. In fact, this exact deal, but with a 22 year old player, would seemingly be legal by this ruling, based on how it’s being reported.
Of course, what do I know? I was arguing that there was no age limit in the CBA and the contract should be legal. Silly me.
So Zach's should go till he is 42
Joshd12
Brock University
BA. Sports Management, 2014
BA. Recreation and Leisure Studies, 2011
Roloson is what? 44?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Both of them are also goalies, which makes the situation different from forwards.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it doesnt, not by the arbitrator’s words. Besides, there are other examples, as seen below.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
We haven't seen the arbitrators words
we’ve seen one paraphrased sentence. There could be a whole lot more reasoning going into it that we haven’t heard yet
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
The only other example at 44 for forwards is Gordie Howe. One. In the entirety of NHL history.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
43, knee high. And there are other examples from older generations. And for ‘this’ one, there is Messier and Larionov. Would your argument be that Messier could not have played longer if he wanted to?
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I’m pretty sure he’s 44 at the end of the contract. You can call it a binning problem, but that’s the case.
Messier was a shadow of himself by the time he hung it up; Moose wasn’t an effective NHL player anymore and he knew it. Larionov I’ll grant, but he wasn’t 44. The survival rate at the end of the tail is very, very small. It’s not unreasonable to infer that this was longer than the player was going to play, even with very favorable assumptions about health and the state of the game.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but u kant proof kovy wont bee exampel number too!!!!1
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
they didn't have to
The fact that he couldn’t resonably be considered to know that he would play that long was enough. The arbitrator had to decide his definition of resonable.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
We know.
Yet, there’s no maximum length on SPCs in the CBA and I can’t imagine the players are going to be pleased that the NHL can arbitrarily decide how long they’re expected to play.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I agree the players aren’t going to like this. We’ll see how it plays out when they start on the new CBA
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
One, the NHL didn’t arbitrarily decide that – there is a mountain of statistical evidence (i.e., all the careers that have predated 2010) that shows this.
Two, if the Devils wanted to lock Kovy up until he was 50, they could. As long as they had a contract that passed the sniff test.
I will say, the Hossa and Luongo deals are almost as ridiculous, and should have gotten the axe as well.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’d say the Hossa deal was more comparable than the Luongo deal because of the positions played but I’m in total agreement about the viability of the ends of those contracts.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d hesitate to call it arbitrary in the face of that much data.
Possible? Yes, but extraordinarily improbably. Every year you tack on dramatically lowers the probability of playing out that contract based on prior data.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
that's what I was going to say
43 in Feb.
Of course, if he signs a contract after this season, it should be rejected, because he’s not going to play until he’s 44. (sarcasm).
by alslammerz on Aug 9, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not about being 44
You guys don’t still don’t seem to get it and never will. The league doesn’t have an issue with the contract being until he is age 44. They have a problem with 95% of the contract being paid in the first 10/11 years. If the contract PAID Kov $6 million a year until he is 44, the league would be fine with the contract.
by Kingsfan99 on Aug 9, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m curious as to why Kings fans still care about this issue. Hasn’t Kovalchuk already turned down offers from your team?
sour grapes
1 division win, 0 cups, all-time playoff record of 11-23.
doesn't matter what the league's issue is
what matters is the arbitrator’s ruling- where he argued that “it’s a retirement contract” and that it seemed unlikely that Kovy would play until he’s 44.
Which becomes a ridiculous precedent to set- the arbitrator just allowed front loaded contracts, so long as they terminate by age 43.
Well technically
he only set precident that they can’t go past 44, he didn’t say “If it was one year less it would be good.”
Also we don’t know what else he said so there could be more to it
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
true
but enough contracts terminate at 43, both long term and short term (see Mark Recchi). My guess is that’s the main basis for the rejection- anything else opens up a can of worms with other front loaded contracts and I doubt an arbitrator would want to go there.
I’d be happier though if the front loaded contract was the basis of the rejection, and not age. It leaves us (as NHL fans, not as Devil fans) basically at status quo going further with contracts. It’s like the Supreme Court ruling on something by technicality, so they don’t have to answer the meat of the question.
Those contracts can still “technically” be rejected as well though since the investigations are still open. I doubt they will be but it is a possibilty
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
I'll believe it when it happens.
In the spirit of not getting banned from this site, please insert your own expletive laden rant about Bettman here…
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
what i'm saying though
is they were in more danger of that being true if Bloch rejects contract due to front loaded status. They are in less danger now basing it off “retirement age” since none of the contracts, iirc, would have players playing until 44. (Except Pronger’s, but the money is guaranteed anyway, so Flyers are actually hurt if he retires.)
And you Kings fans
won’t admit that you offered Kovy a similarly front-loaded deal. And you don’t want to admit that any of the other front loaded contracts are wrong because you were about to give Kovy the same thing. If Kovy had picked LA it would have been exactly the same as Hossa, Lecavalier, Pronger, and the rest and it should be legal.
Maybe Kevin Smith.....
can do a new Jay and Silent Bob movie……maybe how pissed they get and take the fight to Bettman’s front door, or the NHL Executive Offices. Well, I never claimed to be a script writer!
Except that
Kevin Smith isn’t a Devils fan anymore. I read an article that he changed teams to the Oilers now because it was too hard being a Devils fan since there are so few of us. I’ll link it if I can find it.
Well this blows
I don’t think anything could be added until we hear why the rejection was sustained.
Against all odds, against all circumstance were you don't have a shot, you succeed
-Michael Strahan
All you hear about is the past, the past... the past is the !@#$ing past, this is the present.
THIS IS TEMPORARY! A CHAMPIONSHIP IS PERMANENT
-Same as above
Wheres the statements?
Ughh
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Lindsey Lohan!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
By the way...
CapGeek removed Kovalchuk’s contract from their site so fast it made my head spin.
The NHLPA is expected to release a statement shortly
TG’s post..
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:25 PM EDT reply actions
I don't think he was Lou
I believe some articles i’ve read that suggested Vanderbeek was pushing this.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
I agree to that statement
Joshd12
Brock University
BA. Sports Management, 2014
BA. Recreation and Leisure Studies, 2011
Links or leave.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
This is what he was talking about. (via Karina from PPP)
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks Kevin, he waived the 1 day waiting period for me ;)
This is the relevant part, for those who don’t want to read the whole story:
“You’d have to speak to ownership about that,” Lamoriello said. “The commitment that ownership has made here, this is a commitment and a decision they wanted to make for this type of a player and all I can do is say whether the player is a player that will fit into the team, can help the team and is not a risk as a player. As far as what the financial commitment is and that aspect of it, that was out of my hands.”
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
lol L.A.
you know he better! all these LA FANS think they will get another shot at getting him. lol………….. they could not even get a cup with the great one! lol
According to Craig Custance Bloch admitted that it’s “not impossible” that Kovalchuk will play until he’s 44, but “it is, at the least, markedly rare.”
“Not impossible” in the same sense that it’s not impossible that I make love to Beyonce in 2011…
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
So if Bloch himself can’t guarantee how long Kovy will play he can still make a ruling on a contract? Wow, this whole situation reeks of corruption and scandal.
Kovalgate!
I guess judges say when a player can play til. OK
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
He only needed circumstantial evidence that he wouldn’t play that long.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
OK.
So what’s the evidence?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
The fact that one player in the history of hockey has played that long and statistics showing how likely it would be to reoccur would be circumstantial evidence.
Evidently that was enough for him.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
disagree on what
statistics are based on circumstances in the past hence they are circumstantial evidence. It’s not me you disagree with but Bloch. I thought it could go either way and was actually leaning towards it being a good contract this morning. I’m just stating the point of view that the ruling appears to come from.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
My main point is that it’s ridiculous for the NHL/arbitrator to make a judgment on how long a player can play. I don’t care that the likelihood is very low; it’s not impossible, and this “line in the sand” presumes the future.
But of course, this assumes this is the reason.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I would have liked to have seen the number of people who had contracts with decent amount of term on them (atleast 2 years) who were over 38 that decided to retire, that would have been a better yard stick than claiming that only so many players made it to 44.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
I tend to agree with you, if that is the one and only reason given for the rejection it feels a little flimsy. I would expect that there is more about how low the contract fell at the end and for how long it was that coupled with his age at the end that created a multi-faceted reason for rejection. But who knows if we are going to get that
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
The PR team is already in full effet Im sure, but the damage has been done. The little that was let out is surely inflammatory to people’s good sense, not just Devils fans.
I wonder when Bloch’s next contract comes us, if he will be told he is too old to make a living any further.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Wrong
I don’t even know all the players that played past 44 and I can come up with Chelios AND Howe.
He meant forward I’m sure.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
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by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
At 43, that number changes, doesnt it? And we presume on either side of that number, and we have a problem with that when it seems to have be thrown out there arbitrarily.
Messier, Larionov, Lemieux.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I read the arguments..just correcting this statement.
I don’t have a horse in this fight. I feel it’s 99% he’s still a Devil when the dust settles, and without the fine for cap circumvention, this is a lot of hullaballoo for nothing more than what will probably be an extra $500k or so in cap hit.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Blueshirt Banter - "ARISTH"-Assuming Redden is sent to Hartford
by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No worries, Im not challenging you. Clearly, we are all a little miffed, and worse so because of what we are hearing is the reason.
I agree with you, Kovy will still be a Devil, but…
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I get it, I’m not trying to ruffle feathers (I feel given the state of anger, as a fan of an enemy team i need to make that clear).
To be honest, it’s the 5 years worth of $500k that’s the issue. The alleged age ruling and everything else is just a giant smoke screen, IMO. If they had done 2 years of $500k and more evenly distributed the money, I don’t personally believe they even object in the first place.
I believe that’s what will come next…same 17/102, just with the money flattened. Maybe they cut it by a year if age was truly a factor.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Blueshirt Banter - "ARISTH"-Assuming Redden is sent to Hartford
by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No need to be miffed or ruffled feathers.
I still think this is all ticky-tacky if it comes down to that, but that’s just my feeling.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I mostly agree. I disagree with the sentiment that this is “only because it’s the Devils.” I think the league sensed this was going to happen with Kovy regardless of where he signed, and they were prepared for it, whereas the PA were potentially blindsided by the rejection.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Blueshirt Banter - "ARISTH"-Assuming Redden is sent to Hartford
by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Best quote from Puck Daddy
It’s all cheating; the League just found the right contract, the right player and the right franchise to smack in the mouth with a rolled-up newspaper.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
I agree
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He left out the “right leaderless, rudderless union” part.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Speaking of the union, I can’t believe they grieved over this when the vast majority of their players are going to be penalized by escrow at least in part as a result of these kinds of contracts.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
A raised escrow payment of $9,000 hardly constitutes a penalty for the ‘rest’ of the players.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Even for millionaire athletes, $9,000 is a lot of money. If you’re near the league minimum, it’s a lot more money. These guys aren’t going to be at their NHL salaries for long and all money earned at that age carries a pretty large multiplier if invested with any kind of interest.
The 5% escalator is far worse, but this is still bad.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
If the players really cared about that, then they’d never go to arbitration for deals and they’d all sign whatever the teams would give him.
I’m also certain the NHLPA would definitely be interested in fighting the NHL from arbitrarily deciding upon an age or term limit of a deal.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
If the players really cared about that, then they’d never go to arbitration for deals and they’d all sign whatever the teams would give him.
I’ve seen Jeff Marek say that, now I’m seeing it from you. I don’t follow.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
As I understand it, the players have to pay out more for escrow for any large deals. So if the players negotiate themselves to more lucrative deals, which they do because they have to think of their own interests as is their right, then escrow goes up anyway.
If the players collectively were concerned about escrow, they wouldn’t angle for more lucrative deals when possible.
I could be wrong on that, but that’s my take.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Nah, it doesn’t have anything to do with lucrative deals.
The way the CBA is structured, the players get a proportion of the league revenues (iirc it’s 56%). That constitutes the salary cap, spread out equally over the league. In case the league doesn’t make its revenue targets or the players draw more salary than the salary cap (injuries, front loaded contracts, whatever), they pay into an escrow account. At the end of the season, the league takes back whatever it needs to in order to reach the bargained-for ratio.
Angling for more lucrative deals is angling for a larger slice of a predetermined pie. Pulling down more than the salary cap hit is fine, as long as the years are played out when the player is pulling down less than his salary cap hit; there’s the balance. What playing a bunch of years with a lower cap hit than salary and then not playing the remaining low salary years does is raises the escrow required to make that reconciliation at the end of the year, with no payback on the backside of the deal. So every player with a pre-existing contract receives less than the money they bargained for when the escalator is enacted or these contracts with long tails are signed.
It’s alright for free agents, the market price rises. But the longer and larger your contract, the more impact it has on your actual salary versus your bargained-for, agreed on salary. These deals essentially take money from every other player in the league to pay for the difference between the cap-hit and the salary paid out over the life of the contract.
That’s why the players should care.
Only YOU can prevent idiots from commenting!
by Knee high to a duck on Aug 9, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thats a great article
And its all true….. Everything was legal in that contract.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it was.
Bloch just agreed with the NHL, that teams can’t utilize this loophole. (or at least not to the extent we did.)
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Again
that means the NHL should be vigorously gathering evidence to go back and shoot down all the other contracts. That’s the only way this will ever be morally right.
Too late.
I think it would be morally wrong to go after in motion contracts. Especially since they are not to the extent of ours.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Not morally wrong. That would be the only moral thing to do. That would be like letting a murderer go just because the person has already been killed.
by njdss4 on Aug 9, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This isn't murder
It’s letting someone going 75 in a 65 off and pulling over the person doing 80. It might not still be right but it’s not life or death.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Given how atrocious LeCavalier’s cap hit is, and the amount of young talent in TB, I’d be vehemently against re-working his deal as a fan of an Eastern Conf. fan.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Blueshirt Banter - "ARISTH"-Assuming Redden is sent to Hartford
by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
er..Eastern Conference team.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Blueshirt Banter - "ARISTH"-Assuming Redden is sent to Hartford
by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't care who for
I just hope Kovy plays until he is 44
Joshd12
Brock University
BA. Sports Management, 2014
BA. Recreation and Leisure Studies, 2011
I would expect an apology from the NHL formally to the Devils, the NHLPA and Kovalchuk if he was to play that long.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I can't wait
And if we don’t win a cup in that span.. I will throw away the NHL from my house.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Same
This is a franchise changing signing that just got shot down, and if things go poorly because of this hypocrisy I will not support a league that has that little morality.
I will laugh at the NHL
If Kovy bolts to the KHL… Another star to the KHL. Good job Bettman.. But Crosby and Ovie are still in the league!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m indifferent really….But any lawyers here? Do the Devils have any case at all if they wanted to file lawsuit against the league? Something along the lines of unfair labor practices or discrimination or something a long those lines.
The arbitration ruling is binding as far as I can tell; I don’t think it could be appealed.
But, then, I’m not a lawyer.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I don't think they can appeal it
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not. They might not legally have a case against the league because of the CBA and the agreed settlement of disputes via arbitration.
But cases could be made against the other similar contracts and they might have a cases against other teams challenging those deals as legit. It would be a nasty thing to do to fellow GM’s and Teams. But the Devils could very well have a legit case now that a official precedent has been set.
The arbitration is binding which means that the contract is void.
That doesn’t Mean the Devils could take the NHL to court for a claim of Bias and Discrimination. Truthfully if you have the money, manpower and lawyers you can’t take anything and anyone you want to court over it. That’s not a guarantee of victory, but ‘m just sayin’.
That would be a good case on CSPAN
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I also think
that if they do file suit the risk losing the franchise. I remember that when the Rangers where fighting with the league over the MSG channel there was talk of them taking the franchise away if they tried legal action.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Yeah, then the league will really have a reason to hate the Devils.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Good, I hate conspiracies anyway, lets make it official!
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Not a lawyer.
But no. The NHL has it’s own court, Arbitration.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
This wouldn’t be about trying to get the Kovalchuk contract revived. It would be about going after all the other contracts that circumvent the cap just the same. If we’re going down, they’re going down with us.
I will repeat myself.
OUR contract was extremely different! we pushed it.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Pushed what?
Legally there were no laws against what the Devils did. That’s where this decision doesn’t make any sense. It’s like letting people rob banks of money, but when NJ tries to rob a bank of slightly more money than the rest, all of a sudden it’s wrong? They were ALL WRONG. Let one go, let them all go.
Yes,
I agree. but we did steal more, and apparently there is a limit on how much money you can steal from a bank. Is what I was saying.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Agreed 1000%
I don’t understand, it follow the rules when it comes to us but to hell with the rules when it comes to other teams. We follow the rules but they get the advantage. I don’t think you will win this one s. Stevens.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Win what?
I said I agree. but I also think this is better for the league and the cap’s integrity.
And I have already said too much on that topic.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
We all agree
that these kinds of contracts SHOULD be illegal and WILL be illegal in the next CBA, but that has nothing to do with today.
Precisely.
We still have to deal with the teams with the outstanding players incidental to the questionable contracts that went through.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
What are they reviewing?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
Thats intense.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Just more PC banter
It doesn’t mean anything. How about someone involved in this show some emotion over something so hypocritical?
because they want to still have a job tomorrow
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
If the players had 1 brain between all of them all of the PA would get fired TOMARROW!
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Why do I feel like...
…I’m going to be “disappointed” in the PA when the details of this arbitration come out?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I feel the same
I just don’t think they really I don’t want to say “cared” but without interest in this.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Scared sounds more like it. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like
they just didn’t care. Any one of us here on ILWT could have put together a winning argument. I hate all the people who run the NHL and the NHLPA now.
I suspect it’s less about not caring and more about the fact that the NHLPA is in a huge mess right now.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you mean?
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
the NHLPA currently does not have a president.
Paul Kelly was ousted because of a few members who have loud voices, and it seems like the investigation into his firing has turned up a lot of interesting information that makes it seem completely unwarranted.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, so the NHLPA is not in proper working order so to speak.
If such is the case, wouldn’t they be in breach of their contract with the players?
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
But it’s the players’ fault they’re in their current condition.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Bingo
That’s my “conspiracy theory.” This whole situation doesn’t happen even if Paul Kelly was still running the PA.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Agreed.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You are probably right
We’ll see how much information we get but whoever they had argue their side must not have been as good as who the NHL had
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Or was intimidated.
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how the NHLPA being a mess has anything to do with gathering the evidence that you did here, John. If someone who doesn’t even work for the league could get this much evidence for the NHLPA, how could they have dropped the ball here? I think that Bloch was going to rule this way no matter what and has his head up the League’s rear end.
But both the league and the NHLPA had to agree on an arbitrator, as there wasn’t one in place prior to the grievance. So if Bloch was going to rule this way no matter what and the NHLPA still agreed to having him as arbitrator, they still bear responsibility here.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
i need a holiday
i’m sure Lou & Jeff will rework the deal, but this is a big blow for NJ Devil fans. I’m a long time Devils fan and this just sucks for the Devil fans and the organization as a hole.
I hope Lou does not appeal and just gets back to work signing him.
khl
i hope, so that bettman realizes what he did, that kovy goes to russia
EthanM
I honestly don't think he
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
D'oh stupid enter key sneaking up on me like that
Lets try that again
I honestly don’t think he’d care. Ask anyone who doesn’t follow hockey who Kovalchuk is and they’d have no idea who you were talking about.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
According to Gulitti, the NHL hasn’t decided as of yet whether or not to fine the Devils or other parties involved, but that doesn’t appear to be their intentions.
Just spent the last hour
Pretending my punching bag was Richard Bloch, great work out, and a good stress reliever.
Marc R.
Good idea
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 9, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s laughable how the NHL’s own website says, “Los Angeles reportedly had an offer for 15 years and $80 million on the table before Kovalchuk agreed to re-sign with New Jersey.” Like that is an ok deal, but 22 million over 2 extra years is a circumvention of the cap.
Marc R.
IIRC, that LA offer was structured very differently.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we know how that contract would have been structured, I would love to see it for comparison’s sake.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I don’t know that the exact details have been released, but I remember something about the final years being worth $2 mill and $1 mill, and based upon Selanne’s contracts of the past couple of years.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks
I’ll go throw this into the post.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Sounds like
Richard Bloch absolved the Devils and Kovy of any malintent, which should help with any potential fines or punishments
That’s good for us then, considering that Lou’s working on a new deal.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Lamoriello statement on arbitrator ruling
Monday, 08.09.2010 / 6:52 PM / News
New Jersey Devils
New Jersey Devils President/CEO/General Manager Lou Lamoriello today issued the following statement in response to Arbitrator Richard Bloch’s decision in regard to the team’s contract with Ilya Kovalchuk:
"We have reviewed and respect Arbitrator Bloch’s ruling in the Kovalchuk matter. We also note and appreciate his finding that nothing in his opinion should be read as suggesting that either the club or Ilya Kovalchuk operated in bad faith or on the basis of any assumption other than that the Standard Player Contract was fully compliant with the CBA. That has been our consistent position throughout.
"While we do not currently have a contract with Ilya Kovalchuk, discussions have resumed and we are hopeful that a contract will be reached that meets with the principles in Arbitrator Bloch’s award and the NHL’s approval."
A game of Chess is like a sword fight....you must think first....before you move.
by LoNJDTechnology on Aug 9, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Some excerpts from Bloch’s ruling
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:16 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks
I will also throw this into the post.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Sorry from a Thrashers fan
I really thought the deal would be upheld. My best friend is a lawyer and he told me last week he was sure it would be rejected. He didn’t really have a solid reason I can pass except that he was sure it would be found to be circumventing the cap. To me as a layman, this is just selective enforcement of the law. But one thing I have learned from having a lawyer as a friend is that sometimes in the legal profession judges (in this case an arbitrator) just do whatever the hell they want to. They’ll apply rules inconsistently between cases, draw fine lines where none seem to exist to the layman, and so on. I’ll be surprised if the ruling is ever made public, but I’m also curious to know what the reasoning was if it is made public.
By the way, you guys would not believe the constant bs that I am hearing from Thrashers fans about how “great” Cormier is going to be. Please please please remember later in the season to mock my fellow Thashers fans when that one blows up in their faces.
I think Bergfors was the big piece in that trade. 44 points last season at the age of 23, in a couple of years i could see him being a point per game player.
Marc R.
Great phrasing
to say that this is “selective enforcement of the law”. That is EXACTLY what this is. Just goes to show that everyone that can make big decisions hates New Jersey.
then explain why less than 24 hours after Sean Avery annoyed Brodeur in a playoff game a new rule was made and put in the rulebooks, but when it comes to hit’s to the head the rule can’t be put in till next year.
Every team has things go their way sometimes and against them other times. There is no conspriacy
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
by Maverides on Aug 9, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
more evidence:
mirtle There is some suggestion in Bloch’s decision that the league may go after similarly structured deals that are already registered.
If they do go after these other contracts now (which I find hard to believe) it would prove it’s not a Devils-only thing.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd be shocked if they go all the way on Article 26 for those
I mean, Hossa, Pronger, and Luongo are all past the first year of the deal. It’d be a nightmare for them to turn around and kill those deals.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
Note
I mention those three because they’re still under investigation for circumvention. Yes, still. Article 26.10 has no limit on how long an investigation can take.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I think Pronger is safe at least
since his is a 35+ so the cap can’t be effected on his.
I still doubt they’d hit the rest but the Pronger is a definite no
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
The league will have to go after these contracts immediately. If there’s a rule made before they do it, teams can claim a grandfather clause
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Rangers?
I saw on ESPN that the Rangers are interested. if kovalchuk goes to the rangers i might have to kill myself.
by dieharddevilsfan on Aug 9, 2010 7:22 PM EDT reply actions
Rangers have no cap space. They’d screw themselves if they tried to sign him.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN is full of idiots
I bet Burnside is the one saying that. After signing Frolov there is no way in hell the Rags could pull off signing Kovy.
probably
I didn’t see the whole article its in the rumor section.
by dieharddevilsfan on Aug 9, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure the Rangers could pull it off. If you bring in Kovy on roughly a $6-7 million cap hit, renounce Marc Staal, and bury both Redden and Roszival in the Minors, you probably even have a little wiggle room to do something else with your roster. Of course, I’d consider burying $11 million/season of contracts in the Minors as cap circumvention, but the NHL doesn’t care about the Rangers making a mockery of the salary cap….
Cap circumvention != cap manipulation.
That said, there’s no way we’re in the Kovalchuk talks. He’s a Devil until somebody can reasonably prove otherwise.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
They aren’t the same thing, that much I will agree. I wonder, however, how one method of making a mockery of the cap (front-loaded contracts with lengthy tails to bring down a hit) is really any different from another (burying bad contracts in the Minors) when the concept is the “spirit of the cap”.
I know, I know, the NHL isn’t interested in pursuing that avenue. I wouldn’t be, either, except that it seems to me the NHL picks its battles very irrationally, and has for a very long time. There are clearly defined cases of League favoritism we can all point to — star player treatment of suspensions would be one less emotionally charged on this particular board — and it seems to me that prosecuting this contract after letting so many others go is just another example. And while the League apparantly made a successful argument that this contract crossed certain lines that the others did not, it isn’t incredibly difficult to craft arguments in the opposite direction if one so desires. You can make numbers say pretty much whatever you want them to, after all, and facts are often relative.
To your other point: I agree, the Rangers aren’t in the Kovalchuk talks, although I wouldn’t put anything past a Dolan-owned team after seeing them re-hire Isaiah Thomas to the Knicks. I think it is a three-horse race between New Jersey, Los Angeles, and the KHL, with the Devils as clear favorites, but I’ve watched sports long enough to know that anything can happen.
Well, the AHL veterans rule limits the amount of damage one can do with the burying of contracts, and while no one’s going to kick up a fuss about Redden being sent down, Rozsival had a decent enough year, even if his contract is (bleep). Sending him down could potentially lead to a bad reputation among the league and discourage future UFAs from signing. That always seemed to me like a grasping-at-straws type argument, but it gets made often enough and I can’t say it has zero merit, so I’m using it here.
On the global scale, yes, the CBA has so many loopholes you’d think a Swiss-born cheesemaker wrote it up. However, I think there are times where your fan base is taking this too personally. Yes, it happened to be Kovalchuk and the Devils, but if it wasn’t him, there’s a bunch of high profile FA’s coming up that someone was going to trigger the bomb. In the short-term, it will feel like a loss because you’re not getting Kovalchuk at the gift-wrapped $6m cap hit (though I still believe 17-102 without going to league min-money would work).
In the long term though? You may have saved some of your prime competitors from inking players they can’t otherwise afford. Not even talking about my team, but Philly (Carter), Washington (Semin), and Boston (Bergeron, Chara) among others have guys who are prime candidates to get loophole deals before the CBA goes back on the negotiating table. It doesn’t fix Luongo, Hossa, or Zetterberg, but they’re western teams anyway. The impact on your franchise is limited. (And LeCavalier’s, while falling under this guise, is a ridiculous cap hit that nobody will touch anyway).
When the dust settles, you’re still heavy favorites to have your player, still going to have cap casualties as a result, and the contract loophole will have likely closed, or at least plugged BP-style.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Blueshirt Banter - "ARISTH"-Assuming Redden is sent to Hartford
by George E. Ays on Aug 9, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And while the League apparantly made a successful argument that this contract crossed certain lines that the others did not
The way I read the decision, it wasn’t that it crossed lines the others didn’t, it was that the League just waited too until now to challenge the rear-diving contract structure. Block seems to intimate that he’d have shot down any of the previous deals also.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
They’d have the worst team defense in the history of the NHL, were that the case.
On the Forecheck: preaching the Predators' gospel to the unwashed masses.
Post is updated
Thanks to kellyn and Kevin.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
No problem.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I also corrected that Custance works for the Sporting News, not sure why I put TSN initially.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
The Sporting News?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it was the acronym that got you confused.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Dark Day
Even though we all know that this is Total Malarkey. Many New NHL fans may take this ruling and say “those Devils are shady” Or “Devils Broke rules” Oh how I hate Garry Bettman right now!
This is one Devil fan
who can honestly say, I could give a good gosh darn what other teams and their fans have to say about us.
All hockey players are bilingual. They know English and profanity.
- Gordie Howe
by Michael Gianetti on Aug 9, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Old news, John has the stuff up in the main post and Kellyn pointed it out earlier.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 9, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s OK. He just heard it. Here, apparently.
But seriously, I updated this post a second time with some crucial tweets from James Mirtle.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
I’m not understanding what in the CBA was violated. Also according to Bloch’s statement the Hossa, Pronger and other similar deals should be illegal.
me too
i dont understand. Deals of similiar length money have been made what made the Kovy deal so agredious that it had to be overturned.
I blame the Flyers and Rangers i bet they complained.
I hate Philadelphia so much.
Enough with the lunacy, you guys are starting to sound like Montreal fans now. I don’t think he makes your team better than if Lou used that money to address other needs with several players.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Aug 9, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What other “needs” does Lou have to address? A third-line center can be found on the cheap once training camp opens — the veteran free agents will be so desperate for a home and a contract that they’ll come at the league minimum or even on two-way and tryout contracts. The defense has already been addressed with Volchenkov and Tallinder replacing Martin. Depth can come from prospects matriculating from Albany/Lowell. With Kovalchuk no longer counting against the cap, the Devils are $3.7 underneath with three roster spots to fill, so there isn’t a concern there. If you refer to contract extensions for Andy Greene and Zach Parise, those aren’t impacted by this year’s cap, only next season and beyond.
Kovalchuk filled a void as a second scorer to balance the team out and take pressure off Parise-Zajac-“Whomever”. Sure, there are other players on the free agent market who could fill a Top 6 void, but none of them remotely in the way Kovalchuk could. I could tabulate list of players presently in the NHL who have a similar skill set without taking off my shoes and socks, and definitely without having to reveal other body parts on which to count. For that matter, I don’t know that you can come up with a combination of available players who will provide what Kovy does, and bringing in multiple people to fill that void creates other problems (roster limits, for example).
To put it even more succinctly — Kovalchuk is the last piece of the puzzle for the Devils this summer. If they don’t get him back, they’re likely done until late September. If they do get him back, the remaining task becomes moving other pieces about to become cap compliant.
New deal over/under
$6.4 million cap hit
13 years
I vote over
I said earlier I’d try 14-years/$98 million ($7.0mil per). If you do it that way, and keep the “tail” to four years, I don’t see how the NHL could reject said contract given the accepted contracts on the books. They’ve allowed longer deals, they’ve allowed deals with four-year “tails”, and Kovy would only be 41 at the end of the contract when the League has permitted those deals to stretch to 43.
Of course, that would likely oblige the relocation of both Salvador and Zubrus unless Lou finds a rabbit to pull out of his hat. But one thing at a time, no?
15 year/$100 million
I remember reading somewhere that the 9 figure mark was a big deal for Kovy. Not sure if that’s true, but it would also only have a $6.7 mil cap hit
bonuses?
does anyone know the bonus limit? just offer 15yr/$90 mil, with $12 mil in easily attainable bonuses.
EthanM
Performance bonuses
can only be paid to players on ELCs, 35 deals, and if a veteran player (400 games played) returns from a long time on injury.
However, “signing” bonuses can be put on whenever, they are just like 1 time payments (however you can do it multiple times over any year of the contract, just look at Mikko Koivu’s new contract)
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 10, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
However, they still count against the Cap, so they arent to the Devils (Cap) advantage here.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Well, bonuses that put the team over a 7.5% threshold are deferred to the following year, so it does allow for a certain amount of manipulation, if you properly budget for them.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
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by George E. Ays on Aug 10, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope Lou
sticks it to the NHL and finds a way to create another contract that meets the letter of the law of the CBA but somehow LOWERS the cap hit.
Go Devils
Go Jets
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Another word on "retirement age"
The oldest player I can remember playing this game was Gordie Howe. He played an entire 80 GAME season with the Hartford Whalers and a first round of playoffs in 1979 at the ripe age of 51!!!! He even played one shift with the AHL’s Detroit Vipers in 1997 at age 69 so he could be the only player in history to play in 6 DECADES! 6! I will throw in the link to Wikipedia if you really want to see for yourself.
Retirement age is a BOGUS excuse.
I dont think the league “has it out” for the Devils, but I would change my mind if penalties were handed out. Luckily based on all of your research this does not seem to be the case.
The worst part of this is ANOTHER week or more of waiting to find out what will happen next.
All hockey players are bilingual. They know English and profanity.
- Gordie Howe
by Michael Gianetti on Aug 9, 2010 9:07 PM EDT reply actions
Sorry don't know how to do it.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordie_Howe#Playing_career
All hockey players are bilingual. They know English and profanity.
- Gordie Howe
by Michael Gianetti on Aug 9, 2010 9:08 PM EDT reply actions
just an fyi Michael
You shouldn’t normally link to Wikipedia pages. Anyone in the open public can edit those pages and therefore Wikipedia does not receive much credibility.
Its not just about playing till 44!
“In this case, the record strongly supports the claim this contract is ‘intended to, or has the effect’ of defeating or circumventing the Salary Cap provisions of the CBA. The overall structure of this SPC reflects not so much the hope that Mr. Kovalchuk will be playing in those advanced years, but rather the expectation that he will not. This is a long contract-17 years -the longest in NHL history. That, in itself, poses no contractual problem, for the reasons discussed above. But Kovalchuk is 27 years old, and the agreement contemplates his playing until just short of his 44th birthday. That is not impossible, but it is, at the least, markedly rare. Currently, only one player in the League has played past 43 and, over the past 20 years only 6 of some 3400 players have played to 42. …”
“…The dynamics of this SPC, with particular reference to its final six years, are such that there is scarce reason for either Player or Club to continue the relationship. The incentives are strongly to the contrary. By year 11, the Player will have received $98,000,000 of his $102,000,000 contract, constituting some 97% of the bargain. One may reasonably ask, as the League does, whether a player who had been averaging some $9,000,000 a year will be satisfied to continue the rigors of an NHL season for a salary that (1) will average slightly more than $550,000 a year, (2) will represent a 95% reduction against previous average earnings and (3) will undoubtedly constitute compensation well below the then-applicable major league minimum. The economic incentives are not limited to issues of the Player’s preferences, alone. During the final six years, the comprehensive “No Move” restriction will have been reduced to a “No Trade” clause. This additional flexibility will allow the Club to, for example, place the Player on waivers or send him to the minors. Here again, one may reasonably ask whether this Player would, at that point, accept such repositioning as an alternative to seeking continued employment outside the League or simply retiring."
Right, but unless there’s something I missed (and perhaps I have), there’s nothing actually in the CBA that says either isn’t allowed.
That’s why many here are so baffled and upset by this; it’s based on whatever Bloch claims will happen in the future as “reasonable” as opposed to some actual rule it runs afoul. I fully understand that may be how arbitration actually works in reality. I fully understand that the CBA isn’t clear. I fully understand that the Kovalchuk deal “takes it further” than the other deals I mentioned. That doesn’t change the general sentiment about what happened. It’s not going to make people feel better than an arbitrator just essentially saying, “Well, I don’t think he’ll play to the end of his deal, so that’s that.”
It’s frustrating that it all came down to this instead of something definitive.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Maybe Bloch has a time traveling Delorean he forgot to mention during the arbitration.
Devil for Life
by st.pattysdaymassacre26 on Aug 9, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but
Right, but unless there’s something I missed (and perhaps I have), there’s nothing actually in the CBA that says either isn’t allowed.
The accusation was Circumventing the CBA, not violating it’s rules.
And I have to agree that after reading the the link quote above, it does come off as
"Well, I don’t think he’ll play to the end of his deal, so that’s that."
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Can anyone find the entire thing?
Excerpts from Bloch’s ruling, obtained by Sporting News:
It may have info to give us more definitive reasoning.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Check the front page, I FanShotted a link to a post by a sports law blogger who has a PDF of the decision.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The accusation was Circumventing the CBA, not violating it’s rules.
How can a contract not violate the rules AND circumvent the rules of the CBA?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Found it.
In the Offside blog you recently posted.
I was wrong it is in fact in the CBA.
Article 26.3 Circumventions
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
I am aware of 26.3. I see it quoted.
Great. So, please tell me, what exactly is the violation?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
ok.
if either (i) or (ii) is intended to or has the effect of defeating or circumventing…
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
What’s being circumvented for defeated? The Devils still have to be below the salary cap upper limit and Kovalchuk’s contract is below the maximum player salary allowed at the time of signing. The breakdown is compliant with Article 50.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven't read article 50.
But I’ll take your word for it since it does not matter, it does not comply with 26.3. As for what’s being circumvented with the purpose of defeating the Cap, the salary drop after the 11th year was too “Dramatic” for the league and Bloch to let these contracts continue.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
It’s not that hard. What he is saying is that he believes there is clear evidence that the Devils wrote this contract with the expectation that Ilya Kovalchuk would not be playing the last 5-6 seasons on the contract, obscenely lowering his cap hit in the earlier seasons, but not handicapping them in the last few. What he is saying is that this contract would not reflect accurately his cap hit vs. his salary. In fairness to Bloch, he was never allowed to arbitrate the other contracts. I think your beef should be with the league for not going after Luongo and Hossa. On the same note, Lou knew there was a chance this would happen. Hossa’s was investigated heavily and Pronger’s was made a +35 contract so that when he retires to circumvent the cap the Flyers will have to put him on LTIR.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Aug 10, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
He basically said “if i were allowed to reject these other contracts, i would.” If only he could do more than that. It’s also worth noting that Pronger, Savard, and Luongo’s contracts have no taken effect yet and could be nullified with no major issues.
Unfortunatly, Hossa’s has taken effect so it would be harder.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
I really think the NHL would be doing those teams favors by nullifying most of them. I know you guys are angry and want the league to punish other teams, but is getting teams out from under a terrible contract really that bad of a thing?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Aug 10, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I really think the NHL would be doing those teams favors by nullifying most of them.
Everyone is so quick to jump on how a team benefits from these types of contracts but conveniently overlook how many of the teams that sign them have buyers remorse.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
If you read the ruling, that’s a major factor in the arbitrator’s decision to rule the contract invalid. The Devils gave themselves the option, pretty much any time after 2017, to walk away from the cap hit associated with the contract. Essentially, after July 1, 2017, they’re free to send Kovy to Albany to be the highest paid player in the AHL if they’re not happy with his services relative to his cap hit at the NHL level.
Had the contract included a NMC through the full 17 years, it may not have been rejected, because the Devils would have hard a hard time unloading the contract.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
by iwearstripes on Aug 10, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, and while Im still angry, I think it would be terrible for the League as a whole if they came close to voiding those other contracts.
I believe it to be posturing by the NHL, to stem the ‘Devil-bias’ that some speak of and more importantly to further scare off other teams from similar contracts in the future.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Also,
How can a contract not violate the rules AND circumvent the rules of the CBA?
If I know something, and withhold the info from you but don’t say anything to contradict what I know, technically I have not lied to you.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Correct. You would be withholding information.
What is your point?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 9, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I havn't lied.
I haven’t violated the CBA, but i’ve taken advantage of a loophole within it.
But after finding article 26.3 i see that circumventing is violating.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
No. Allowing someone to believe something that is wrong is lying by omission when you have the correct information is lying by omission.
Circumventing a rule is something entirely different.
Me, Jimmy and Janie are in a room with a cookie jar and a stated rule, “Don’t touch the cookie jar.”
If Jimmy eats the last cookie from the cookie jar but the chaperone comes in and catches Janie with her hand in the jar, and Janie receives the blame her for eating the last cookie… if I don’t correct the chaperone, I’m guilty of lying by omission.
If I ask my friend Jimmy to go get me the last cookie from the cookie jar and, when questioned later about it, suggest that I technically didn’t break the “don’t touch the cookie jar” rule, that’s circumvention (or an attempt at it, anyway).
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Whatever.
If I ask my friend Jimmy to go get me the last cookie from the cookie jar and, when questioned later about it, suggest that I technically didn’t break the "don’t touch the cookie jar" rule, that’s circumvention (or an attempt at it, anyway).
A much more accurate way of saying it indeed, in fact i could make it even more perfect by carfully grabbing a cookie without touching the jar so no one (Kovy or Lou) touches the jar, but it doesn’t matter, my point still stands, Kovy and Lou didn’t touch the cookie jar, but they still got a cookie.
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
Don't worry Devils fans...
I think Kovy will remain with NJ and we will all have our revenge when Bettman has to present the Devils with the Stanley Cup next June!!! Just image…for a moment…the Devils clinching the Cup on home ice…Do you hear the loudness & pure rage of the boo’s coming down on him from the stands??? What an awesome revenge! GO DEVILS!!!
We, or at least I only want him for 6.5 mil hit or less.
Any more would compromise our line up, and for a player who will need to adjust to our playing style?
Go Devils!
Numbers don't lie, Martin Brodeur
While I would love to have Kovy on our team under a new "compliant" contract
I don’t see it happening now. To be more “compliant”, Lou will have to make even more trades and further handcuff the team going forward. As stated before, Lou will not have much leverage with the Kovy signing for making moves.
I would be glad if Lou could keep the cap hit 7 mill or below. That number just seems reasonable to me and if I was told the Devils would sign Kovalchuk for a 7 mill cap hit on July 1, I would have been elated. Simply put, he’s an elit player and the missing peice for this team in the new NHL, with a 7 mill cap hit, I couldn’t complain. Go get him Lou!
ZachJac
Somewhere there is a happy St. Louis Blues fan
Remember, the Blues broke the unwritten “gentleman’s rule” by luring free agents away from their teams.
I guess the Blues committed a “no no” by signing Stevens who was a RFA away from the Capitals the year before. So when the Blues did the same exact thing the following summer, it seems the league was trying to send a message to the Blues. Lou knew that the judge would probably side with the Devils, so he went for Stevens. Somewhere too I read how this case would somehow indirectly lead to the 1995 strike as well.
So I just don’t know how these judges aren’t biased in the league’s favor. Seems like it’s a bit of a kangaroo court.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
Happy is a strong word
but I’m sure Judge Houston rolled over in his grave last night.
More to the whole topic, I think the smoking gun in the contract is how it goes from no movement to no trade in the final years when the money drops to league minimum, meaning he could be waived. That shows much more willful planning on not having the final years in effect.
www.stlouisgametime.com
On Rink Side Radio
last night James Mirtle said that the NHL might re-open their cases against all of the contracts that you listed. So you might still see something there.
Still, I think that the whole 97% of the money over the first 11 years thing was a main reson for driving a stake in this contract.
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Can they reject them?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Aug 10, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
They say they can, even retroactively. The likelihood of that happening probably approaches the percentage of players that have played past age 44.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
The contracts under investigation (minus Hossa)
are all extensions that don’t take effect until this coming season. They haven’t started yet. So yes.
www.stlouisgametime.com
The more I read up on this, the more I think that this whole debate was supposed to take place last summer. I really think the NHL wanted to go after the Pronger deal when the Flyers smugly signed Pronger to a contract that they knew he couldn’t finish.
I suspect the NHL decided to pass on fighting the contract and imposing penalties on the Flyers pursuant to Article 26 when they realized that the maximum penalty that they can impose is only $79,000 more than the penalty the Flyers imposed on themselves in 2015 and 2016 by signing a 35+ contract that Pronger will never play out.
I am a hockey fan first, and a Caps fan second.
I wish all this would end and the teams can focus on getting ready for the season.
Devil for Life
by st.pattysdaymassacre26 on Aug 10, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions
Apparently the Flyers are up in arms over the part of the Kovalchuk ruling that cites the Pronger deal as also circumventing the cap. Check out the article here. Courtesy of Mirtle.
if the NHL intends to contest Chris Pronger’s seven-year, $34.45 million contract extension that was signed last summer but kicks-in this season, they’re likely in for a fierce fight from the Flyers.
How is it that a journalist writing about this whole thing thinks the Flyers would have any say in the matter?
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
No, I get it. It was interesting… it just boggles my mind that someone whose job it is to report facts, while reporting those facts as they happen, somehow overlooks the fact he’s reporting: that if the league were to retroactively reject the Pronger contract, the NHLPA would have the choice of filing a grievance and it would have to go before an arbitrator.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Strange setup, but it works for the purpose of creating a buzz, yes? Of all sets of fans the most angry that their player is included with these contract talks, its the Flyers. They fight like hell to say that because the contract is a 35+ contract, its nothing like Kovalchuk’s contract. Well, when you pose to them that Pronger wont be playing in the NHL when he is supposed to be making $525K, they become quite angry.
So why not rile them up some more with this talk? It will certainly drive traffic to his blogs and paper.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I do agree
that because it’s a 35+ contract it is the hardest one to kill. The others seem like the NHLPA might not even fight them since the precident has been established or if they did it would be a much harder fight since they would have to take the tack that they are fundamentaly different. The fact that even if he retires the entire amount of money still hits the cap means it’s the only one that’s up in the air.
Is pushing the money out over more years even when you know for a fact that you have to pay it all if he retires early circumvention? I honestly can’t say for sure but it’s certainly manipulating the cap, I’d be interested what the outcome would be.
No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.
Actually, if it’s under investigation per Article 26.10, then the next step would be Article 26.12, a joint discussion on circumvention. Only if that discussion fails does it go to arbitration. As far as I can tell, the PA wouldn’t have to put in a grievance; this isn’t an Article 11 situation.
It’s either the investigation does/finds nothing, find something but the issue is reconciled, or finds something, the issue isn’t reconciled, and so it goes to arbitration per 26.13.
I suspect if the investigation continues, something will be agreed upon per 26.12. The Flyers/PA wouldn’t benefit from going through arbitration now.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 10, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Not surprised
Anyone who actually took the time to read the articles of the CBA without fan goggles can’t be surprised of the ruling. Sure, there were prior contracts that had some of the same features, but this one pushed the envelope on all possible dimensions.
who cares..
The Devils are better off without this contract. Lets just move on already..
Donald Vasquez
I?WT
So, after all this, is everybody still happy with the name of this blog?
i'll show you my butt tattoo if you'll show me yours
Not only that, but they felt it was such a clever comment that they had to wait 24 hours to post it.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Yeah. Click on his name.
Joined In Lou We Trust – 08/09/10 7:24 PM EDT
And s/he thought so highly of the jab that s/he used variations of it twice on JftC while he waited:
Commented IQWT on More Bloch Quotes from Custance on Jewels From The Crown – 08/09/10 8:08 PM EDT
Commented IVdBWT? on More Bloch Quotes from Custance on Jewels From The Crown – 08/09/10 11:58 PM EDT
But, what are you going to do? Maybe next he’ll realize that the crown has no jewels yet and petition to get that site’s name changed.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Thanks
Very enlightening comments. I guess I was asking for it.
Like most of the rest of you, I probably have better things to do than to bother with any of this. If I didn’t, I’d probably be much more involved in the discussion. Sorry I was so late to add my 2 cents.
All the chirping aside, and to give you a better idea of where I’m coming from that what my admittedly “clever” comment title might imply, I happen to think as highly of Lou as most of you. I’d go so far as to say I admire him more than any other GM that I’ve ever paid any attention to. Never mind that he happens to be the mentor of the GM of my favorite team (despite their lack of similar success thus far), he’s arguably one of the keenest minds to ever leave his mark on the NHL. I envy the Devils immensely for this.
But I also have to admit that this whole IK contract situation somehow stained my regard for him ever so slightly. Sure, the owner may have been throwing his weight around. And of course IK and his agent were dead set on demanding the moon. But deep down, in retrospect, I wish Lou had somehow dodged this mess. Ah, well. He’s only human. And integrity is in the eye of the beholder. That’s all forgivable.
Sorry again for the snarky comment/question. That wasn’t necessary. But I do sincerely wonder if y’all, being fans of this franchise, have any similar reactions to Lou’s actions in this drama?
i'll show you my butt tattoo if you'll show me yours
I know I wish none of this crazy contract mess ever came to be. But I do not lay any blame at Lou’s feet. I dont blame him for trying to make this contract. He tried to get the lowest Cap hit for an elite, once-in-a-generation (per team) kind of player. You rarely find such a player, and even less likely when he is drafted 1st Overall by someone else. So, I dont blame him one bit for taking a shot. I still feel the contract did not break any rule, spirit sure, but…
Anyway, I really dont feel Lou has any less integrity for crafting such a deal or trying to sign IK.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
^This
Personally, I’m not a fan of these kinds of deals. Never have been. I’m on record saying as much.
That said, I didn’t like the deal when it was announced, but it’s like free speech… I may not like what you have to say, but I’ll defend your right to say it. I, and I’m sure many others, maintain that there was nothing wrong with the contract that wasn’t wrong with numerous other contracts and if you allow one you have to allow them all.
Much like refereeing in a game, all anyone wants is some consistency. If you’re going to let the players play a little loose with the rules, don’t start calling interference penalties with 3 minutes to go in a close game.
It doesn’t cheapen Lou’s many accomplishments or tarnish his reputation for creating the smartest deal possible that met both the team’s needs and the players desires. He defended the contract as legal, and though the arbitrator ultimately decided differently, he also absolved Lou and the team of any deliberate attempts to cheat. In other words, they were playing within the rules, they just pushed the rules too far and someone had to say something.
With our 20/20 hindsight we can all say, “I wish he’d just avoided this whole mess,” but on the flip side, if the deal had been approved (which there was a perfectly reasonable expectation it would be), Lou looks like a genius for locking up a premier goal-scoring talent for life at a very reasonable cap hit.
Now, the whole scenario of calling a press conference to make the signing announcement with knowledge the deal was going to be rejected… with the current limited info we have at the moment… that could be seen as a stain on the man’s reputation. But I withhold my judgment on that matter until we see how it all pans out. It could have been a strategic negotiating tactic for the future and/or not his call at all.
So, in summary, Lou’s golden.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Lou’s been running the show since 1987. In the big picture, this isn’t much. I mean, Lou’s made some deals that blew up in the team’s face, some players left on bad terms (though some came back), and the team hasn’t won every single year.
The good and consistent success so out-weighs the bad; that for a Devil fan to immediately lose his or her trust in Lou doing what’s best for the team would be foolhardy in my opinion. Feel free to lose it, but I can’t say I agree.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 11, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Was there a big jump in people visiting the site since around 5 yesterday to prior? If so how many in the last 48 compared to the 48 before, I’m just bored and think that’d be interesting to know.
Asking that doesn’t violate the rules does it?
Devil for Life
by st.pattysdaymassacre26 on Aug 11, 2010 1:35 AM EDT reply actions
Asking it doesn’t violate the rules; but I’m not going to answer it because…I’m lazy and I’m not going to look it all up because it doesn’t mean much.
Just know that the traffic picked up for predictable reasons.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 11, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
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