Hall of Fame discussion regarding Patrik Elias

by Fooz on Oct 17, 2011 12:28 PM EDT

After watching two fo the Devils' first four games this season (if I didn't live in Virginia, it'd be all four), and watching a couple Devils, namely Parise, obviously, and Patrik Elias, skate extermely well, I started wondering, what are the odds Elias ends up being inducted to the Hall of Fame?

Now, I don't calim to know exactly what requirements one needs to meet to be inducted, but as far as value to a team over an extended period of time goes, Elias has been a key component of the Devils since the '97-98 season. He's consistently played over 70 games per season, excluding the lockout shortened season and being afflicted with Hepatitis because of it (indirectly), and an unfortunate injury in the '09-10 campaign, and has scored 20 goals or more nine times, including four seasons over 30, and one season at 40 goals. He holds numerous NJ Devils records, one of which is his team record of 96 points in the Stanley Cup wininng season of 2000-01, one of his two Cups, and no one will ever forget that pass. Not to mention the record he shares with Mats Sundin, Sergei Federov, and Jaromir Jagr for most overtime game-winners, at 15 for their careers. He's approaching 400 goals for his career, including the playoffs, and is internationally recognized as a key part of the Czech Republic's national team, and is an alternate captain for them.

Patrik Elias has had an outstanding career, and I think his understated skill has made him a potential entrant to the Hall of Fame, and personally I think he has been almost as important to the team's success as Martin Brodeur. Obviously, his career is not over yet, hopefully by a long shot, but I'd like to know what other fans of the New Jersey Devils think, and hopefully this discussion is brought up again in the future by the people who make the important decisions.

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Nothing would make me happier...

…but frankly I’d be (very, very happily) surprised. His numbers are very good but not quite in the upper echelons of the league, mainly due to the fact that he’s been asked to take on (and has performed extremely well in) roles that benefit the team but not necessarily his own individual production. While we as Devils fans see this every game and appreciate him all the more for it, it makes him stand out a bit less in the rest of the league. Which is too bad, because when you look at his full body of work beyond just the score sheet, you can easily make the argument that he belongs there.

Regardless, his jersey is going to hang in Prudential following his retirement, and for me that’s good enough. And hey, maybe he’ll tear it up for a few more years and prove me wrong when his eligibility year arrives.

by David Vaimberg on Oct 17, 2011 1:38 PM EDT reply actions

He’s 35 this season and has 819 points. I think if he can get to 1000 then he’s in. Not that it’d be easy by any stretch, but if he can stay healthy it’s doable. It’d be about 40 points average for 3 more years (including this one)

Regardless I agree that he’s been an integral part to the Devils’ success and would be surprised if his number 26 isn’t hanging in the rafters when he calls it a career.

by ChampaChamp on Oct 17, 2011 1:41 PM EDT reply actions

This (1000 points) will put him right on the bubble, I think. If you look at the list at Hockey-Reference.com, most players with 1000 points either are or will be HOF’ers, but not all of them are (Phil Housley was the first player to stick out, to me. Jeremy Roenick isn’t a HOF.er either.).

I think that he needs some_thing_ else to push him into the HOF. Something to get him noticed. An additional Stanley Cup would probably help significantly.

by ohms law on Oct 17, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Soooo

Co-holding the NHL record for OT goals might be that something?

Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?

by FrankG929 on Oct 17, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions

…eh
Maybe, but I doubt it. Records such as that (those that are somewhat coincidental) don’t seem to garner much notice, based on what I’ve seen.

by ohms law on Oct 17, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions

kovalchuk is gonna beat him anyway.

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by Triumph44 on Oct 17, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Very true, I believe Kovalchuk has 13, and he has a lot of his career ahead of him, last year he tied Elias’ record for most overtime goals in a season, with four.

And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?

by KovyisLove on Oct 18, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Winning the Stanley Cup and the Conny Smythe trophy as Playoff MVP would go away if his numbers for the rest of his career stay on pace for 1000.

by Alan Wright on Oct 18, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

* would go a long way

by Alan Wright on Oct 18, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

He should finish with 1000games and 1000points. 2 Stanley Cups

But whats is going to hurt his chances is he has never won a scoring title of some sort or trophy (Hart, Conn Smythe etc.)

Maybe if plays till he is 40ish and starts hitting the 1300games 1200 point range.

I would be very very surprised and extremely happy.

by NJDOhio on Oct 17, 2011 3:31 PM EDT reply actions

Just 2 Stanley Cups?

2 Stanley Cups?

2000, 2003, 2012/2013/2014

by Marty's Better #30 on Oct 17, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Awesome! I’m so excited now!

by NJDOhio on Oct 17, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Elias would have been a Hall-of-Famer if he had played in the 1980s. Instead of his 70 point seasons, he’d have 80 point seasons, and he’d probably already be at 1000 points. But Elias has a very outside shot at the HOF at this point – I think his only chance is to re-invent himself into a checking-line center and play for 5 more years, and win another Stanley Cup.

It’s a real shame because there are guys like Naslund, Kariya, Elias, Forsberg, etc. who are just not going to get the recognition they deserve because they played in an era with lower scoring. Meanwhile people like Federko and Lafontaine and Gainey are in. We’ll see, but I don’t hold out much hope for these guys.

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by Triumph44 on Oct 17, 2011 4:51 PM EDT reply actions

Yea, longevity is another aspect that could help his chances significantly.

I know the BBWAA takes scoring era into consideration for their voting (somewhat, at least), so isn’t there any chance that the Hockey Hall of Fame voters will do so as well? I can’t picture none of those guys that you’ve mentioned making the HOF.

by ohms law on Oct 17, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Woah, Forsberg should definitely be in the hall of fame… He was absolutely unbelievable.

And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?

by KovyisLove on Oct 17, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions

I think you’re right on the mark, Triumph, at least in regards to Elias. I’ll go a step further, however — Elias is not a HOFer. I love Patty to death, but he screams to me “Hall of the Very Good” and not “Hall of Fame”. He’s been a very good player for a very long time, but his peak numbers were not eye-popping and he suffers from being part of a franchise that stresses “logo on the front of the uniform” over “nameplate on the back”. Even if he gets the additional years and hits a few “milestones” (such as 1000 points), I wouldn’t put him in there…. because I’d see the milestones as accumulation, and I despise using those benchmarks as reason to include or exclude players from a Hall of Fame as I feel it rewards accumulation and longevity over superior play.

Paul Kariya has a far better shot at the HOF than does Elias. He’s got better numbers (989 points in 989 games), and his “peak” at the start of his career was tremendous — his first three “full and healthy” seasons (knocking out the strike year in 1995 and an injury-plagued season in 1998) will certainly help him.

Peter Forsberg will end up being an interesting case. If you completely ignore the numbers, I imagine he has a great shot — he has the reputation, and was in the discussion for “best player in the League” for part of his career. His injuries took their toll on the numbers, however, and I think that’s going to hurt him because it destroyed his longevity. I’d watch what happens with Pavel Bure and if/when he gets elected to the HOF, because the two of them could make very similar cases for themselves: great players, great numbers on a per capita basis, but a lot of injuries kept them from accumulating.

by acasser on Oct 17, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Elias is hurt by two things – usage and the Devils. He’s used on the penalty kill, so that hurts his scoring numbers. And NJ has never drawn power plays at even close to the league average. These two things combined have probably cost him 5 points a season, more when you compare it to top offensive players whose teams draw penalties ABOVE the league average (heaven forfend!) – that stuff adds up.

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by Triumph44 on Oct 17, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Elias is the best forward in Devils history; but do I think he’s one of the greatest forwards of all time? I really can’t say so. He was never the dominant forward in the league when he played except for a few stretches of time (e.g. 1999-2000; that run in 2006 when he came back from Hep. A). He was quite good, certainly, but not among the very best.

Then again, the Hall of Fame is watered down a bit (Clark Gilles) so if Elias hits 1000 games, 1000 points, and adds some more accolades to resume; he could have an outside shot in the future.

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by John Fischer on Oct 17, 2011 5:31 PM EDT reply actions

I don’t have an opinion because I know nothing about the HOF, but some interesting numbers:
Patrik Elias has had the same amount of 30 goal seasons are Alexei Kovalev. Elias’s single season high is better, and his points per game are better, .85 vs .79. I think that’s pretty amazing when you think about the way people talk about Kovalev, as in, people talk about him all the time but never Elias. I’m not saying Kovalev is an hall of famer, but I just illustrating how Elias is very underrated.

by wolfcaster on Oct 17, 2011 11:31 PM EDT reply actions

F the Hall of Fame.

There’s too much focus on records, trophies and titles, and not nearly enough on what these guys meant to the game and their teams. He’ll have his number hanging from the rafters at the Rock, and that’s all that matters to me.

I’m not going to lie to you. It felt good and I’m going to do whatever is in my power possible to stay there as long as I can. - Petr Sykora on playing on a line with Elias and Parise.

by Murdoc on Oct 18, 2011 6:27 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Amen

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by Matthew Ventolo on Oct 18, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Number retired vs. Hall of Fame

It is an unfortunate reality for some players that their numbers do not get them into the Hall of Fame, even if their strength, contributions, reputation, and personality earn them great respect and wide reknown.

A player like John Maclean, Patrick Elias, and Scott Niedermayer should have his number retired by the Devils when he establishes a consistent ability to be a team player across many seasons, start in hundreds of games, notches hundreds of points, and is a great team leader. It is a great and rare honor to be so recognized for ones accomplishments that a team would retire your number.

But, then there is the Hall of Fame.

Do Maclean, Elias, and Niedermayer merit the attention of the Hall of Fame?

Niedermayer is an unambiguous yes as a great two-way defenseman, Norris winner, Cup winning Captain, Gold Medal winning captain, etc. So, his number will be retired and he’s in the HOF.

By contrast, Elias and Maclean have to rely on a debate about numbers which don’t quite rise up to the “great” level set by other players across the sport in the same position and debate about subjective measures of their teamwork, discipline, and likeability.

If Elias and Maclean’s goal and assists numbers led their team, the division, or the league for years on end, that would be an easy answer. Further, if Elias’ points were consistently 10-15 or even 20 or so points higher on average for 15 seasons, I assume he’d be up with the elite, top 50 in points. (If my math is correct).

by Alan Wright on Oct 18, 2011 1:43 PM EDT reply actions

not exactly on topic, but I have such mixed emotions about Niedermayer. He pretty much “burned his bridges” when he left for Anaheim, in my mind. No, that’s not fair, but it is reality. The apparent ambivalence towards the Devil’s plans to retire his number lend weight to the idea that I’m not the only long time fan who feels that way, either.

by ohms law on Oct 18, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions

He played 12 seasons(5 with the Ducks) with the Devils and helped them win three Stanley Cups. How does he not deserve his number retired?

Besides that, How can you blame a guy for wanting to play with his brother?

by NJDOhio on Oct 18, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions

If you have a library card, go to your local library website and find Newsbank (it’ll be under “databases”, “online database”, or “reference services”). Search in the August 2004 date range for Scott Niedermayer and you’ll find several several stories about the saga of his leaving.

Here’s one link: "Niedermayer may walk despite $3M pay hike – Devil could seek his due elsewhere for ‘05-06 ":http://docs.newsbank.com/openurl?ctx_ver=z39.88-2004&rft_id=info:sid/iw.newsbank.com:AWNB:STL2&rft_val_format=info:ofi/fmt:kev:mtx:ctx&rft_dat=1047952C2490160B&svc_dat=InfoWeb:aggregated5&req_dat=0F8BB0EF17DDD6E5
Not sure if that’ll work for many people reading this, but it’s worth a shot I guess.

by ohms law on Oct 18, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t need to research any articles. I was a round back then I remember reading what happened and remember the interviews.

None of that takes away 12 seasons and 3 Stanley Cups.

by NJDOhio on Oct 18, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah… something about the way that you said that gave the impression that… I don’t know… you weren’t around, I guess (or didn’t remember it well?). Not intending to offend or anything.

by ohms law on Oct 18, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Here’s the story about his actual departure:

Devils lose Niedermayer to Ducks

I doubt that those links will be useful anyway, so:

Devils lose Niedermayer to Ducks
Star-Ledger, The (Newark, NJ) – August 5, 2005
Author: RICH CHERE
Edition: FINAL
Section: SPORTS
Page: 043

by ohms law on Oct 18, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah…something tells me that its statements printed like this:

Scott, who said the San Jose Sharks were also serious bidders, said ending his long association with the Devils was something he wanted.

Which has gotten you upset.

Well its easy from a fans perspective I guess to think that maybe he just wanted out at all costs or feel slightly slighted. I don’t believe for a minute it was a easy decision.

Unfortunately I can not locate nor care to do more research trying to. But Game day interviews and the like from Scott. Saying basically he couldn’t pass up the chance to play with his brother. He didn’t leave for money reasons which is commendable. Because he could have gotten more from the Devils and probably a few other teams.

At the time it happened I wasn’t happy he left but also didn’t blame him.

But then again. I’m not the type of person to hold grudges when players leave my favorite team. Example when Scott Gomez left. Sure I didn’t like it. But could you blame him? Really?

Anyway. Never the less. None of this chances the 13 Years (Its 13 not 12 I was wrong originally) and 3 cups.

by NJDOhio on Oct 18, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions

I despised Scott Niedermayer for a couple of years following his departure, and #27 was among my favorite players in the entire League. I’ve met and chatted with the guy once before, and I have a serious (and expensive) piece of Niedermayer memorabilia in my collection that I stashed in the back of my closet for several years after his departure to the Ducks — albeit still behind protective plastic — because of the depth and negativity of my feelings towards him.

I won’t go so far as to say “time heals all wounds”, but it does do a lot for most of them. Niedermayer’s departure and the manner in which it happened was a betrayal, but I think most Devils’ fans have forgiven him. I doubt the team would have retired his number this soon if there was the concern that he might hear a significant number of boos at the ceremony — that would embarass the franchise and give ample fodder to the “journalistic” hacks of the world who love to dump on the club.

That Scott Niedermayer has had to wait more than a year following his retirement before his jersey was hoisted into the rafters is enough for me.

by acasser on Oct 18, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions