New Jersey Devils Turned Over by New York Islanders in 3-2 Loss
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:16 PM EST
in Devils Game Recaps
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For the second time in this week, the New Jersey Devils suffered a disappointing loss. The first was in Florida when the Devils blew a three-goal lead across two periods. The second was this afternoon at the Rock as the Devils lost to the New York Islanders 3-2.
It's not so much that the Devils blew a lead or collapsed in a heap. No, the Devils gave the game away as not-so-subtlety hinted in the headline. What Devils fans will takeaway from this one was seeing Ilya Kovalchuk go up the center of the ice on a breakout, get stick-checked off the puck by Michael Grabner in the slot, and scoring on a hung-out-to-dry Martin Brodeur. That was not only the Islanders' third goal of the game. That was not only a shorthanded goal. That was not only another goal off a Devils turnover. That would stand as the game winning goal.
But this game featured more than just that giveaway. The team as a whole gave the Islanders a lot this afternoon. They gave pucks away in the offensive zone with forced cross-ice passes or just bad reads both at the point and down low. They gave control away in the neutral zone, with pucks not being played cleanly stunting the Devils offense for much of the game. They gave space away as the Islanders were able to torch the Devils defense with several breakaways and odd-man rushes this afternoon. They gave victories along the boards as the Devils struggled to win pucks - which led to two goals against in this game. When you give that much away, it's hard to win hockey games against anyone regardless of where they are in the standings.
Oh, the Devils made a valiant effort to get a late equalizer. Zach Parise actually did with 5 seconds left in the game, jamming in a Dainius Zubrus pass right at in the crease. The ref on the ice called it a goal, but the lovely, intelligent, and visually-capable people of the "war room" in Toronto ruled it was no goal. They claimed there was a distinct kicking motion; and since it overturned the call on the ice, there must have been indisputable video evidence. Replay of Parise's effort showed no such thing as a clear kicking motion. His skate moved, which is going to happen because he's on ice; but that's all. Either way, I'm sure the NHL will come out with a clear and detailed explanation with video to fully explain why Parise violated Rule 49.2, per their official explanation as Tom Gulitti noted on Twitter. After all, the NHL has been so good about explaining controversial decisions.
Sarcasm aside, that the Devils needed to jam a puck in and hope it trickled over the line just to salvage a point says it all about how they played this afternoon. Feel free to blame one single player as you want, but the reality is that the Devils team was too sloppy on the ice to earn a result. After all, despite being down for much of the game, they still finished -2 in Corsi; evidence that they didn't put up enough offense to really take control of the game. Given the turnovers, the giveaways, or whatever they're called, it's little wonder they didn't.
I have a few more thoughts on tonight's game after the jump. For the opposition's take, please check out Dominik's recap at Lighthouse Hockey.
The Stats: The NHL.com Game Summary | The NHL.com Event Summary | The NHL.com Play by Play Log | The NHL.com Shot Summary | The Time on Ice Shift Charts | The Time on Ice Head to Head Ice Time Charts | The Time on Ice Corsi Charts
The Highlights: Do you want to see some highlights from this game? Yes? Then watch this video from NHL.com. Warning, the end will enrage you:
The Andy Greene & Adam Larsson Pairing Was Horrid: While Adam Larsson didn't make two agonizingly-awful turnovers in the third period, I wouldn't say he really had a bounce back day. Sure, he scored the Devils' first goal in the second period off a lovely pass by Ilya Kovalchuk. Yet, Larsson had his share of giveaways at the blueline, he was pinned back more than any single Devils with a -6 in Corsi, and I'm not at all sure what he was trying to do on either of the first two Islanders goals.
Andy Greene was more noticeably bad. He certainly had his minutes cut to 16:42 of total ice time; much less than Larsson's ice time of 20:46. Greene got torched by P-A Parenteau at the point (it didn't help that Zach Parise gave a puck away along the boards to Milan Jurcina first), played off him and into the slot instead of trying to pick up an Isle. That helped Matt Moulson get the space for his one timer that put the Isles up early. In the second period, Greene's biggest error was a soft pass around the boards that turned into, what else, a turnover. David Clarkson didn't get to it first, but David Ullstrom did. Ullstrom won the puck and flung it to Josh Bailey, who scored on a one-timer. Greene's second biggest error was getting torched by Kyle Okposo in the second period for a breakaway that Martin Brodeur bailed him out on. While his Corsi was only -3, what Greene allowed would certainly cost the team had Brodeur not been brilliant.
Kovalchuk the Goat: Kovalchuk got a lot of boos after his turnover that led to Grabner's shorthanded goal. I can understand that. After all, he went right into the middle of the ice with a forechecker lurking. I know the guy has wheels and can control the puck well, but he put himself into an unnecessarily risky spot. He should have skated up the right side to at least get away from the pressure. Instead, he gambled by going up the center, lost that gamble because Grabner made a play, and Grabner finished it off. It was a very bad turnover in a game filled of them by New Jersey.
It also didn't help that he apparently said something nasty to an official after being taken down with a high stick by John Tavares, which wasn't called (not that the power play would have necessarily helped New Jersey). The refs gave him two for unsportsmanlike conduct, which hurt in a game where the Devils were down a score in the third period. While I sympathize with how he must have felt and he's been pretty good about staying out of the box this season, he's got to keep his cool in that situation.
Kovalchuk Wasn't Awful: Ironically, these events happened when Kovalchuk had one of his better games of the season. He led the Devils in shots with 4. He set up Adam Larsson and Adam Henrique on their goals, the latter being a sloppy but hard-working effort in the neutral zone to knock it ahead. His rush up-ice with Mattias Tedenby led to a good shot on goal and Tedenby drawing the first penalty on the Islanders. He finished even in Corsi despite being double shifted with bottom six players who were eating it in that regard. Kovalchuk got his hustle on and was flying throughout the game. Anyone complaining that he looked uncomfortable or slow were disproved this afternoon. Then again, those same people are likely ignoring all of this because of the turnover and likely the penalty.
Martin Brodeur Remains the Opposite of Awful: When a goalie stops as many breakaways and odd-man rushes as Brodeur did this afternoon, then it's clear he had a good game. Doubters, watch this video (and wince at Anton Volchenkov getting caught high in the neutral zone):
I believe Brodeur made the save(s) of the season.
Also: I don't think he was at fault on the first goal and definitely not the third goal. Maybe the second, but the video above suggests I shouldn't nitpick now.
How You Get Minutes: Mattias Tedenby's season has been tepid because he hasn't gotten a lot of ice time. That's because he's been quite good at being inconsistent in games and ultimately not doing enough to deserve more ice time. Today, he got 12:26; his first 10+ minute game since November 15. Why? The guy was hustling, he wasn't totally brain dead in his own end of the rink, he attempted 3 shots (got 1 on net), and he drew a call. Tedenby was energetic on the ice and if he can bring that more often, he'll get 10+ minute games more often.
Depth Charged: That said, I don't think the praise for Tedenby should go overboard. He was often in the wrong end of the rink as evidenced with a -4 Corsi. David Clarkson and Ryan Carter also got -4 Corsi values; while Tim Sestito (unsurprisingly) managed worse with -5. I'm not sure how but the Devils' third line and a third of the fourth line got beaten on today. Yes, the Isles with their forward depth, weren't as poor as the Devils. It's indicative how the overall team performance wasn't up to snuff today given that the Devils' top two forward lines finished even or better.
Incidentally, the Devils' forward depth had quite a few shifts against the Frans Nielsen line (a.k.a. the Isles' second line), so despite being on the road, the Isles found some favorable match-ups that might have hurt in the run on play as well. Either that or I'm misreading the head-to-head charts.
Some Other Positives: Yes, there were a few. First, the Devils' discipline was much better today. Bryce Salvador got his one dumb minor out of the way, and the only other power play the Isles got was because Kovalchuk was barking after a horrendous non-call on Tavares. Given that they took three straight minors to start the game on Friday, this is a step forward. Second, the Devils penalty kill remains dominant. Only 2 shots allowed and many clearances on the two penalties they killed today. Third, Adam Henrique continues to have some dazzling moments. The move he put on Al Montoya which was then an equalizng goal was nothing short of high-light worthy. His day at the dot wasn't good (5-for-13), but he played 18:34 in all situations, put up 3 shots, and finished at +2 Corsi.
My Frustration Grows, Mr. Oates: It's more than just the Jimmy's and the Joe's, the X's and O's continue to fail. as the the Devils power play continues to falter. With three power plays, the Devils only got 2 shots on net. Worse: they allowed 4 shots and a goal. Yes, the Isles' PK out-shot and out-scored the Devils' power play units. This is unacceptable; yet, I know it'll persist because that's how it's been going all season long.
While I understand that Adam Oates has no say in whether the Devils give the puck away at the point or turn it over in the slot; the same systemic problems persist with no recourse or adjustment. On what level can anyone say the Devils' power play has been good? It'd be one thing if they were firing shots on net with some regularity and they're just not going in. But the Devils aren't even doing that. Adam Oates is essentially the opposite of Dave Barr when it comes to special teams success this season; and Oates needs to be held accountable sooner rather than later.
Why I Don't Trust the Giveaway Stat on the Event Summary for a Game: So Kovalchuk is marked for 3 giveaways (I'd bet only 1 is real), Larsson with 2, and none for Greene or Salvador, who each made at least two heinous turnovers. Yeah, I don't trust that stat on the Event Summary. What is the scorer looking at? It's like them with hits - they're so inconsistent, who knows whether it's a legit count or not.
Where I Ask A Player Who Isn't Reading This Recap: OK, so Kovalchuk was certainly notable in a positive (and negative) manner today. He got 4 shots on net - all at evens. Henrique certainly showed up with 3 shots at evens and a goal. What about you, Zach Parise?
I see you got an assist on Henrique's goal that I didn't recognize at the game or upon watching the goal again on video. Yes, I think you got jobbed on that overturned call at the end of the game. Had that gone in, we can say you did something more than just 2 shots on net in the second period and give a puck to Jurcina along the boards that eventually turned into the Islanders' first goal. OK, to be fair, you were also a +2 in Corsi, so you weren't being beaten in your match up. Yet, I expect more from you. I expect you to make an impact in a game on a regular basis and outside of the last 5 seconds of the game, you really didn't. Many fans want to split up you with Henrique and Kovalchuk to "get you going." I don't know, maybe that's needed. I'd prefer that you step something else up in your game instead of mixing up the roster to cater to your skills. You could stand to eventually figure out how to play with guys not named Travis Zajac; especially since you're playing for a contract.
Reputation: With two high-sticks in consecutive games that weren't called and took down players, should John Tavares have a reputation? All I'll say is that the Devils may want to watch themselves on March 4, 2012 lest they risk another stick getting wildly swung at them from #91.
What did you think of the Devils performance? What will the Devils have to work on in the next three days before starting a four-game road trip in Colorado on Wednesday? Please leave your answers and other thoughts on today's game in the comments. Thanks to everyone who followed along in the gamethread and @InLouWeTrust on Twitter. Thank you for reading.
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Marty admitted he should’ve had the third goal, but had his head down because he thought he broke his stick. But Kovy is mostly to blame.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 5:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think Brodeur’s just being complimentary. It wasn’t like Brodeur was going to have much time given where Grabner picked up the puck. Grabner had full advantage given his position and skillset.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Brodeur normally would have gone for a poke check on that play and he clearly reacted slow.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
Something needs to be done to get Kovalchuk and Parise playing at the level expected of them. And am I the only person that doesn’t quite think Adam Larsson is ready to be playing in the NHL yet? He’s a great player and will become a valuable asset for us, but he needs some more prep time.
After looking at the Parise non-goal replay multiple times, it was very close. I’m surprised they overturned the call on the ice, but it did like he pushed forward with his skate to push the puck in.
Such a deflating game. The worst part about this loss is having to wait three more days before we can see if they can respond with a win on the road against another young, talented Avs team.
The problem is a trick of slow motion replay. In slomo it looks like he deliberately pushes the puck with his skate. At full speed, you can see that he had an akward stance and his foot slipped, resulting in him tapping the puck with his skate.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 6:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That’s a good point. I didn’t really think of it that way. Considering the call on the ice was a goal, I’m still fairly surprised they overturned it.
Exactly, they couldn’t literally point out Parise was trying to kick it. If the question was whether the skate hit it then they are 100% right, but that’s not the rule, it’s if it was intentional, and if you can’t really tell just go off what the refs saw, since the were , you know, on the ice when it happened.
And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?
Agreed about the slow-mo comment (by Sonic Joe) and about not being able to determine intent from the fast-mo or the slow-mo.
In my opinion: not enough video evidence to demonstrate a “distinct kicking motion” sufficient to overturn the call on the ice.
"Distinct Kicking Motion"?
I’m going to try to be objective and not even look at it as a Devils fan – as we have seen though in the last two years, is the rule is stupid, because it is too difficult to rule consistently. I distinct kicking motion clearly implies INTENT to push the puck into the net. I don’t see how that is the case with Parise, but regardless, you are now almost trying to get inside the head of the player.
They should just change the rule and make it any motion of the skate toward the goal that results in the puck crossing the line is no goal. At least it would be pretty objective and much easier to review.
The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall. - Vince Lombardi
by Devilssection21fan on Nov 26, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
They should just change the rule and make it any motion of the skate toward the goal that results in the puck crossing the line is no goal. At least it would be pretty objective and much easier to review.
But this would rule out a lot of goals that they call good – a guy driving the net, the puck is passed to him, he misses it with his stick and it hits his skate and goes in. his skate is still moving ‘toward the goal’. so the rule would need to be written very specifically – ‘a goal shall be disallowed if a player makes a forward skate motion towards the puck that is not part of the player’s regular skating motion, including but not limited to a distinct kick.‘. This is the way they call it, but that’s not the way it’s written, so it’s time that the league clear this up. Unfortunately they usually wait until a huge game is decided by a bad rule until they alter it.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
Remember the travesty of the years where any puck that went off a skate was a non goal?
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 7:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Understood there would be fewer goals
Well, what you are proposing is better than what is in place now, but I think even your revised defiinition of saying “not part of the regular playing motion” is too difficult to consistently apply. I can see situations when a player is falling down where it would be very hard to determine whether it is a regular skating motion.
I would personally just rather have more goals disallowed if the rule was more solid, than what we have now, which is basically we have no idea how Toronto is really assessing and what any given ruling will be.
The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall. - Vince Lombardi
by Devilssection21fan on Nov 27, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
Kovy is leading the league in turnovers by a country mile, I was saying it yesterday already, he must find a way to reduce drastically this kind of mistake. Besides that big one he was just the most electrifying player today. I hate irony !!!
I’m probably a bit persnickety there but Henrique once again could’ve made a great pass to a open teammate in the slot during the 1st period but he kept his head down and shot the puck.
Adam’s a promising young player, he’s got some great scoring skills already but if only he could improve his passing game, he would be a terrific offensive player.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 26, 2011 6:01 PM EST reply actions
Turnovers are a bogus stat. I agree that this kind of mistake has to go, though. It’s a high risk play with not much reward.
Henrique isn’t going to improve his passing. For the most part, players who come to the NHL, what you see is what you get offensively. Henrique was not a big assist man in junior or in the AHL, and while he has a bunch of assists so far this year, I haven’t really seen many terrific passes by him. I can’t see how he’s not moved to wing by NJ in the future.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
I can’t see how he’s not moved to wing by NJ in the future.
Spot on
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 27, 2011 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
Having a good PK is meaningless when the only team that scores when we are on the PP is the opposition.
There is no way that goal should have been overturned. What a soul crushing way to end a game.
I guess home and homes are kind of like doubleheaders in baseball. They always seem to end in a split.
I said before Wednesday that it was 6 points or bust. Well…BUST. And we played like crap in all 3 games.
Anyone else looking forward to Kovy’s next stint on the IR? I know I am,
na-na-na-na HEY! You SUCK!!
Anyone else looking forward to Kovy’s next stint on the IR? I know I am,
No, and that’s terrible.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Parise's non-goal.
Not to worry, the boys on the Rangers post-game reviewed the goal and determined that it was the right call to overrule it. I think it was Al Trautwig and Mike Keenan. Let’s see how it’s handled on MSG’s Hockey Night Live with Dano going up against 3 vociferous Devils-haters.
I’d pay to see Dano go full out hockey fight with one of them.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 6:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Unfortunately the guys in Toronto hate us even more than the morons on MSG.
na-na-na-na HEY! You SUCK!!
I thought it was a fast decision. I am sure they would have taken a lot longer if it were one of the league favorites like the Penguins, Canucks, or Black Hawks. Or if it were Crosby or Ovechkin who kicked it in. I hate to think this way but it’s just another incident showing how the league doesn’t like the Devils.
I'm just going to say it.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I’d give Pete DeBoer until the new year (roughly 5 weeks) to get his team energized and playing 60 minutes. At that point I’d make a decision to fire him if there havent been serious strides made in the devils 60 minute play.
Elias said it best in the post game. He said “we didnt play hard for two periods.” Thats right. He didnt say were not a good team, we still have to improve, etc. He said we simply didnt play hard. In fact, the Devils are lucky they havent lost four straight, and three to the worst teams in the NHL in a row. Their fortunate to have won yesterday on Hedberg’s shutout and they had to go to a shoot out to beat columbus.
Last year at this time the Devils werent playing 60 minutes either. Only under Lemaire did the team and espesially Kovy start playing inspired hockey for three periods. I would had to see another coaching change, but DeBoer has to elicit 60 minutes from his players or he is not a good NHL coach no matter what technical hockey smarts. Also, your best players have to be your best players. Kovy has been up and down, and parise has been worse.
I think this is a bit too harsh.
Yes, the Devils haven’t been consistent. Yes, they don’t seem to be able to put forth a 60 minute effort. But the circumstances aren’t ideal. With two of his top three centers out, DeBoer is forced to rely very heavily on two lines (one of which is centered by a rookie).
Let Zajac come back, settle in a bit, and I think they can put forth a much more balanced attack. Think about this .. when they were in this position last year they couldn’t find ways to win any games. This year, they are relying on guys like Mills/Carter/Sestito to play fairly significant minutes, and they just can’t do so in the latter part of the game.
You want to fire a coach who’s 12-9-1. Yeah, this game was disappointing, but let’s get real – that’s not going to suddenly make the team play better nor is there a candidate who will.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
(1) How many 60 minutes efforts have the devils put forth? I can think of one only—LA.; (2) do the past three games not demonstrate that the Devils play down to their opponent? Three goals in two games against the islanders. (3) A veteran player on the the team (elias) as much as called out his teammates after todays game saying bluntly, the team didnt “play hard.” Do you disagree with the above? and does the above not show a chemistry and energy problem on this team? That is part of coaches responsibility. And I do agree the time to fire him is not now—-but he needs to get this lack of effort turned around in the next month. The playoff picture will be tight and Devils will not make it putting forth the kind of effort they have through the first 20.
To the Zajac comment, you misread my point entirely. My point is not about talent. The devils have enough talent on the ice to beat the islanders hands down. The point is about effort and energy and consistency.
To the point about the 12-9 record, it also misses my point. The Devils are talented enough to play slightly above 500 with lackluster effort they have shown. But that likely wont be enough to get them in the playoffs. Records are not the only reasons why you change coaches—and Lou’s track record indicates that.
DeBoer has some time but realize the devils came very close to loosing three straight to the league’s worse, both teams that the devils are vastly superior to in terms of talent. The mental focus and the energy on this team is dismal, and that (not skill) is a primary responsibility of a coach.
I missed no points. Yes, part of it is on the coaches – and the other part is on the players and that’s what you’re missing. If Elias is saying they didn’t play hard, I interpret that as meaning that the players haven’t played hard. Peter DeBoer isn’t going to be on the ice making plays, covering guys, handling the puck, etc. DeBoer can say all he wants from a motivational standpoint, but when the game is on, it’s all up to the players themselves in how they perform on the ice. All the coach can do is put them in situations where they can succeed, make tactical adjustments, and crack the whip as needed. Coaches don’t have so much control over a player, much less all of them, to have them maintain focus or perform a certain way. The players have to do much of that themselves; they’re the only ones who can fully control their mind.
Ultimately, coaches are judged by their record and how the team performs. Yes, the Devils haven’t always played as well as we’d like to them to be. Yet, they’ve been good enough to win just over half their games and not get completely embarrassed in all the losses they did suffer. DeBoer’s record isn’t at all bad and to suggest he needs to be on a hot seat because the team isn’t decisively smacking down opponents left and right is foolish. The team’s effort has been good enough to get where they are in the standings; and most of all, changing the coach isn’t going to magically change the effort.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I’d like to point out that by your logic a coach would never be eligible to be fired because a coach is never on the ice making plays. I do hope you see that is the logic of your argument and its so ludicrous im not sure how to respond. Let me try….um Ok, so then, coaches are responsible for nothing because they dont play…hmm ok…so why are there head coaches and why do teams pay them money? are they figure heads? could the league save revenue by getting rid of coaches? absolutely nothing about what i said on DeBoer even remotely hinges or suggests that he makes plays on the ice. Im not sure what you think you have in pointing out coaches never lace up the skates…
to your second paragraph, yes, coaches are judged on team performance and record. in other words, not just record. some coaches who have a team under 500 are judged to be doing quite well because they dont have much talent on their team and are getting the most out of it that they can. Other coaches with above 500 records (the devils) are judged wanting because they are not quite getting all out of what they have on the team (hint hint, P and K on pace for 20 goals this season), and arent motivating their players to play 60 minute games. THey fits DeBoer’s job description fairly acurately. Im really not positing anything too controversial here. If the devils continue to hover at the 500 mark because of inconsistent 60 minute efforts into the new year, DeBoer should go.
I’ve been watching hockey for over 40 years and I cannot understand how players on a team can constantly say “they know they haven’t played 60 minutes.” So WHY DON’T THEY DO IT??? They are not 10 year old kids. They are well-paid professional athletes!!! They shouldn’t need the coach to tell them to play 60 minutes- they should know this already!!!
This basically hits on my major point. If the players are saying they’re not playing hard or not listening to the coach, then the question needs to be: “Well, why aren’t you?”
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 27, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. This is a little reactionary. Considering the Devils are right about where most of us expected them to be (on the edge of the playoff teams), I think we can cut Pete more slack than this. Unlike past seasons, this coach has no prior experience with most of these players. It takes time to figure out how to motivate people. The few guys that have played for him before have been fairly motivated.
Bottim line – Lou brought in an outsider for a change. He’ll need more time than us fans are used to. If the team still plays like this next season, then maybe we start thinking about it.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 7:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’m agreed with John. Just to make sure we’re clear.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Disagree, DeBoer doesnt get “extra time” because he is a first year coach, and my point has nothing to do with their record. Apparently no one can grasp that. It has to do with the quality of their play, specifically their lack of energy, lack of mental focus, and inability to finnish. DeBoer should be given until the new year, but the devils cant afford this type of play to continue much past that time and still realistically make up the points they have been letting slip away. Remember, had Lou changed coaches about a month earlier last year (when it was obvious he should have) the devils may very well have made the playoffs
Apparently no one can grasp that. It has to do with the quality of their play, specifically their lack of energy, lack of mental focus, and inability to finnish.
Coaches do not control any of these things. Apparently, that hasn’t been grasped after three months of Jamie Langenbrunner (among others) proving that last season.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
again, I never suggested that pete deboer is the “master of puppets” able control everything on the ice. conversely, your counter argument assumes that the only way we can hold a coach responsible for anything is by proving that he has abolute control over everything. thats a bit silly dont you think?
its a bit more sesible to admit that coaches do set the tone, establish chemistry, and the set bar for the kind of effort that is expected game in and game out. now there will always be bad games. but the devils have played ONE ( i repeat, that was numero uno, one) 60 minute game all season.
lets take it back to last season. I assume you agreed with Mac being fired. Let me know invoke your logic. Mac didnt have control of any of the players and moreover he is not responsible for what they did on the ice because he is not a player. in reality, Mac shoudl have been fired a lot quicker and a change of coach made a huge impact on the devils last season. it shouldnt be off the table this year either.
I never suggested that pete deboer is the "master of puppets" able control everything on the ice.
Straw man argument.
You do specifically list four things you expect DeBoer to be held accountable for that he ultimately has no control over.
conversely, your counter argument assumes that the only way we can hold a coach responsible for anything is by proving that he has abolute control over everything.
I’m failing to see where he said anything of the sort and that this isn’t just another weird twist of logic on your part to avoid admitting you might be wrong.
thats a bit silly dont you think?
Yes. It is.
its a bit more sesible to admit that coaches do set the tone, establish chemistry, and the set bar for the kind of effort that is expected game in and game out.
Not only is this statement not entirely true, it’s also different from the things you were laying at DeBoer’s feet as his responsibility earlier. That means that you’re either changing your argument as needed, which is a big no-no if you ever want to be taken seriously (which I’m guessing you don’t, based on things like your grammar and spelling), or else you honestly believe that all of these things are the coaches responsibilities, which contradicts your earlier statement, “I never suggested that pete deboer is the "master of puppets" able control everything on the ice.”
Either way you’ve effectively destroyed your own argument.
Let me know invoke your logic.
This should be good.
Mac didnt have control of any of the players and moreover he is not responsible for what they did on the ice because he is not a player.
You could start a scarecrow business with all the straw men you create.
The insinuation here is that anyone who disagrees with your point about what a coach controls is a hypocrite if they agreed with MacLean being fired last season, and you couldn’t be more wrong. Well, maybe you could, but it’s just an expression; please don’t take it as any kind of challenge.
MacLean’s failure was in his inability to coach, of which the player’s poor performance was but a symptom. He lacked in the things that coaches are supposed to do: game plan; create viable lines; make in-game adjustments to the other team’s tactics; utilize talent properly; etc.
The team’s performance was intricately tied into those things he did control, among others that we’re not privy to, and the simple fact is that they were being set up to fail and any success they had would have been in spite of the coach, not because of him.
a change of coach made a huge impact on the devils last season. it shouldnt be off the table this year either.
A trade of the team Captain seemed to make a huge impact on the team last season also, why aren’t you beating that drum?
The main reason the coaching change had such a dramatic effect is because the job was taken over by someone who actually knew what he was doing. DeBoer is no Lemaire, but he’s leaps and bounds ahead of MacLean in terms of knowing how to actually coach so replacing him (and who exactly did you have in mind to replace him?) would most likely just be a lateral move and not a great leap forward like from MacLean to Lemaire.
your respone is ludicrous and isnt worth responding to. hopefully for your education and edification, as well as pointing you back to what the real conversation was about before you went on yet another pointless and wandering tirade, is my respone to the person I was in a somewhat intelligent conversation with until injected yourself:
For John: You are clearly intellectually astute enough to see that elesias counter argument on your behalf doesnt merit a response.
To the best of my honest interpretation your view in defending DeBoer is: (1) he is not responsible for players on the ice because he is not a player on the ice, only a coach; and (2) he has a 12-9 record and therefore doesnt deserve to be considered under the scrutiny I am rendering.
If I have failed to accurately represent your view on this please let me know. We may have a very interesting philosophical dispute on what a coach is and what a coach can be said to be “responsible” for. That issue, though fascinating, is probably too complex to fully expound on here. I’d only caution that I think your view verges of relieving coaches of any impact, and I do think they have some impact for which they can be held accountable (specifically, as I suggested, on the level of demanding and getting a full effort from their team collectively and consistently).
To your second point about the record. I simply disagree that a good record by itself can attest to coach performing well. Washington just fired their coach at 12-9, the same record as the Devils. Your response will be Washington has higher expectations than the Devils or is more talented than the Devils. This is true, but a history of coaching changes even within the Devils organization alone will be enough to show that record by itself has rarely been the only indicator of a coaches performance.
DeBoer does deserve more time. But (1) lack of 60 minute performance nearly unviersally and (2) inability to integrate and get going the organizations two top players into his system count heavily against him thus far.
Actually he does deserve more time. We all want the best the Devs can put forth, but it’s not always going to happen.
One of our D and one of our forwards are back after missing all or most of last season to injury. Another of our best forwards is out because of injury. Our defenseman with the highest TOI is a rookie. To say this team is not doing good sitting where they are is ridiculous. To blame the coach is reactionary at best.
DeBoer needs time to figure out how to motivate his players. Also, Zach, as captain, has to help. That’s what a captain’s for. To help the coach find ways to keep the team motivated. So you can blame him to. Remember, the team didn’t play good for Lemaire until 15 was traded.
If you want to fire a coach, fire Oates. He’s the only one who’s not doing his job.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 8:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why didnt MaClean deserve"more time"? he was a first year coach to boot….explain that one. no one gets more time. this is the NHL you either get your team to play for you 60 minutes or not.
MacLean didn’t deserve more time because he had years of prior experience working with the Devs as an assistant. It was assumed that he already knew the players, their strengths and weaknesses, and their motivating factors. Personally, I would’ve dropped him in November, but last November the team saw a comparative improvement from October, so I can understand why Lou held off.
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 7:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also, MacLean’s Devils had a bigger problem than just “not putting in a 60 minute effort”. They would give up as soon as the other team grabbed any momentum. At least DeBoer’s Devils put up a fight to the end, even if its not 100%.
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 7:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
MacLean’s Devils usually managed 20 minutes – at best.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 27, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
For John: You are clearly intellectually astute enough to see that elesias counter argument on your behalf doesnt merit a response.
To the best of my honest interpretation your view in defending DeBoer is: (1) he is not responsible for players on the ice because he is not a player on the ice, only a coach; and (2) he has a 12-9 record and therefore doesnt deserve to be considered under the scrutiny I am rendering.
If I have failed to accurately represent your view on this please let me know. We may have a very interesting philosophical dispute on what a coach is and what a coach can be said to be “responsible” for. That issue, though fascinating, is probably too complex to fully expound on here. I’d only caution that I think your view verges of relieving coaches of any impact, and I do think they have some impact for which they can be held accountable (specifically, as I suggested, on the level of demanding and getting a full effort from their team collectively and consistently).
To your second point about the record. I simply disagree that a good record by itself can attest to coach performing well. Washington just fired their coach at 12-9, the same record as the Devils. Your respone will be Washington has higher expectations than the Devils or is more talented than the Devils. This is true, but a history of coaching changes even within the Devils organization alone will be enough to show that record by itself has rarely been the only indicator of a coaches performance.
DeBoer does deserve more time. But (1) lack of 60 minute performance nearly unviersally and (2) inability to integrate and get going the organizations two top players into his system count heavily against him thus far.
MacLean was fired in the last week of december I remember correctly and the team was dead last in the standings, so he got more time than Deboer already.
Moreover Pete’s got a system and it’s pretty obvious the players are trying to buy into it. No one can say the same thing for MacLean. On ice, the players were completely lost and constantly beaten up by the opposition.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 27, 2011 7:58 AM EST up reply actions
MacLean didn't even have a system.
by Marty's Better #30 on Nov 27, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
ok, so DeBoer should bear no scrutiny because under the Mac the Devils were worse? if that the best defense of Pete DeBoer than I think it in a backhanded way shows my point that there may be reason to be watchful of DeBoer. I would also just point out as an aside that DeBoer has more talent than Mac had. Mac never had a healthy Kovy and Parise on the same team for any length of time; Mac didnt have young players like Henrique and Larsson contributing the minutes and the level of skill that they have thus far.
by the way i agree with you DeBoer does deserve more time. if you read my post you’ll see I think he deserves another 5 weeks maybe 6 weeks to start getting 60 minutes efforts out of the team. the devils dont have a lot more time than that to let points slip away
But I disagree that we should expect DeBoer to make this team a definitive contender this year. He’s got to adjust to the players, and he has to instill his system. I think January is too soon. I think he deserves at least the whole season to adapt. Might it mean we’ll miss the playoffs again? Sure. Does that suck? Yep. But we’re into a mini rebuilding effort here. If we keep firing/trading non-performers before giving them do chance, we’ll soon look like the Islanders. A team that occasionally sneaks into the playoffs, but usually is not a threat.
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 7:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Until (unless) the Devils drop 8-10 points out of 8th, there’s no reason to panic and fire the coach. Maybe Jacques wouldn’t come back this time. Right now they’re tied for 8th (in 9th because of the ROW), but 4 points behind 4th. So awful, let’s fire the coach.
Go Devils
Go Jets
I agree with you completely, Frank. More than that, there’s no guarantee that Jacques would have the same “magic touch” that he did last year, even if he did return.
Another thing to remember: the first two times Jacques Lemaire “retired” and left the Devils, we were quite happy to see him go. We were very pleased to see him return last year, almost giddy with the results…. but he did follow up a coach who was downright putrid. Not to sell JL short, but just about anyone would have looked good by comparison with John MacLean.
Still…. Lemaire’s first two tenures were punctuated by great regular season success and not-so-much in terms of the playoffs. He was marvelous in 1993-1994, guided the team to a Stanley Cup in 1995…. and disappointing (in terms of results) afterwards. No playoffs in 1996, early exits in 1997 and 1998 despite being the #1 seed in the Conference both years…. and a pitiful showing against the Flyers in 2010. With Minnesota, his teams made the playoffs only three times in eight seasons, and only once got out of the first round.
Making the playoffs is a laudable goal this season, especially coming off of last year. For those fans who have greater expectations, Lemaire and his postseason record may not be the answer.
unfortunately franky your view depends on the assumption that a coach can be evaluated entirely and only on the basis of a teams record. I would question that assumption and coaching changes happen often when teams have winning records, the Devils have done so themselves in the past, and the Capitals did so with the same record as the devils yesterday
I gather that your defense of DeBoer hinges on the prior supposition that this a a rebuild year for the devils. I couldnt disagree more and nothing coming from Lou or Pete DeBoer backs that up. DeBoer’s stated aim is to make the playoffs and he has said talent wise this is a playoff team. on that basis i have to say that you objection to my criticism of DeBoer is misplaced.
I will also add that if you did not watch a game and heard the devils are 12-9 after last years start, you would be quite happy and assume DeBoer has the team off and running. If you have watched the games, however, you know that is far from the case. moreover, flip their luck in the skill competition that is the shoot out and their under 500 easily
Follow up question
I will admit to not being a huge Patrick Elias fan. That said, why did the media not follow up with the next question>
“Patrick, why didn’t you play hard today?”
Because obviously he is part of the “we”, right? Otherwise, name names. You are supposed to be part of the leadership of this team, and blanket “we” did not try hard is not leading. It is just another way of deflecting blame, If you want to call someone out, call them out. Don’t throw it out there, and let the fans determine who they want it to mean.
If anyone deserved calling out, the media is not the place to do it. That is a quick way to lose the respect of your fellow teammates.
by SonicJoe on Nov 26, 2011 8:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’d make a decision to fire him
Alright, here’s the $64,000 Question: Who do you hire to replace DeBoer?
Extra Bonus Question: What guarantees do you have that changing the coach will impact anything?
There’s only one answer: Guy Carbonneau.
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
You have life insurance? Don't they know you're in the DANGAHZONE?
by Kevin Sellathamby on Nov 27, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
your misquoting
if you accurately represented my view (which you, in campaign add style, deliberately chose not to) you would have noted that I am not advocating firing DeBoer. I am only concerned with his coaching at this point. I wouldnt make a decision to fire him until at least the new year. But you are interested in intellectual honesty has your history on the board suggests.
You also constantly ask questions that have do not have a rational basis or a rational answer. A question like “what guarantees do you have” is a non starter for any discussion on this board. Its not a rational question from which a probing and legitimate conversation could propel because no one has a guarantee about something that hasnt happened. you can do better…i think
Lest we forget they almost salvaged a point and probably another SO win if not for flimsy evidence overturning the Parise goal. Perhaps the team needs to loosen their neckties a bit and get away from the rink for a day. This may sound corny, but a team movie night or team hike in the mountains just might do the trick.
As fans we get emotional about our team and take every loss personally, at times forgetting the sun will rise tomorrow. And that’s great; its a sign of a healthy fanbase. But let’s try to keep it in perspective: most of these guys go home to families every night just like you and I do. The Devils have three days off. Let’s hope that they, like us, use them to remember that they’ve won 2 of 3, put the past in the past and keep it there, and prepare properly for the next opponent.
by rtrstevec on Nov 27, 2011 10:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They did a team paintball outing between the last preseason game and season opener. That didn’t pan out so well. But I get your point. I would probably have a mandatory practice in place of an optional skate, but allow the players to work on whatever they feel they need the most work on, or whatever they feel would best help the team. This way its still hockey work, but it empowers them a bit.
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 10:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That’s probably the healthiest way of looking at it. The team will actually have 3 days of not playing hockey games for the first time since the end of October. I think a few practices without the immediacy of a game could help a lot.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 27, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
yep, we’ve been forgetting that the team’s played at an insane pace lately, 7 games in 11 days, 5 of them were on the road.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 27, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
My point exactly. The past 2 games have looked like they were running on empty. Give them a day to decompress, do something fun with the boys, and recharge the batteries.
by rtrstevec on Nov 27, 2011 11:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
open letter to Devils PP:
fun fact: we have 7 goals for and 5 goals against on 5-4 PP
While on the PP just leave one guy way back in our defensive zone and play 4v4.
It’s not like 5v4 is working anyway.
Leaving one D-Man back will stop the shorthanded goals against (at least there will never be a breakaway)
We get to play with more open ice. Let’s pretend it’s overtime 4v4, Devils usually look good on 4v4. Don’t be afraid to leave the O zone as well. Best Devils goals happen on rushes anyway. instead of standing around have a series of rushes.
When the opposition dumps the puck you have a guy there to retrieve it faster while the rest of the team starts up another rush.
i know this is outside of the box thinking but is anything inside of the box working ?
feel free to forward this to devils coaches :)
by Devils_from_Seattle on Nov 26, 2011 6:58 PM EST reply actions
Updated Recap
I updated this recap with further thoughts on this game.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
BENCH KOVY
I lost some respect for Pete DeBoer after today’s game. First of all, Kovy played mediocre at best. Any player with some speed and half a brain could have gained the offensive zone and dropped that pass to Larsson for the 1st goal. Moreover, I was at the game and unfortunately couldn’t see a replay on the high-stick that Kovy was complaining about, but the fact of the matter is that he put himself before the team. Not only did he make a bonehead move to turn over the puck on the PP for the Islanders 3rd goal, but then he goes and mouths off to the official with 5 minutes to go, putting the team in an even worse position.
If you’re DeBoer, the second Kovy gets back to the bench (and he managed to stay on the ice for about 2 and half minutes after his penalty expired, which was highly effective), you sit him on the bench and have him watch the rest of the game.
Oh and finally, everyone seemed to miss when the Devils were pressing towards the end of the game with an open net and Kovy took his time touching up on-sides causing Elias to go off-sides. Are you kidding me!?!? This guy has got to get it together!
"You're next" - Scott Stevens
Any player with some speed and half a brain could have gained the offensive zone and dropped that pass to Larsson for the 1st goal.
Yet, no player was able to do so all game until Kovalchuk did it.
Moreover, I was at the game and unfortunately couldn’t see a replay on the high-stick that Kovy was complaining about, but the fact of the matter is that he put himself before the team. Not only did he make a bonehead move to turn over the puck on the PP for the Islanders 3rd goal, but then he goes and mouths off to the official with 5 minutes to go, putting the team in an even worse position.
I was at the game too and he got taken down while going into the slot with the puck. Tavares was beat and he fouled him hard out of desperation. The refs watched it all and stayed silent. Yes, I agree Kovalchuk should have kept his mouth shut, but if I were in his skates, I’d find it hard not to spit out the verbals.
If you’re DeBoer, the second Kovy gets back to the bench (and he managed to stay on the ice for about 2 and half minutes after his penalty expired, which was highly effective), you sit him on the bench and have him watch the rest of the game.
Since you were at this game, then you’d know that Kovalchuk was one of the Devils forwards absolutely flying out there, plus he set up the two goals the Devils scored. I don’t know about you, but if I’m in DeBoer’s shoes and the team is down a goal late in a game, then why wouldn’t I keep playing my best offensive player?
Also: Kovalchuk played only 1:24 after his penalty ended. He then played out 1:41 of the final 1:44 (last 3 seconds on bench because it was after the Parise goal was thrown out by Toronto.)
Oh and finally, everyone seemed to miss when the Devils were pressing towards the end of the game with an open net and Kovy took his time touching up on-sides causing Elias to go off-sides. Are you kidding me!?!? This guy has got to get it together!
Now you’re just reaching. Three Devils also had to touch up on-sides and Kovalchuk was last because he had the furthest distance to cover. Since Elias had the puck, the responsibility was on him – not Kovalchuk’s.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
It’s funny, Parise seems to get a free pass from everyone for not living up to his expectations on the team, while everyone is so quick to blame Kovy for every little thing that happens during a game.
The best way I can put it is that some of these Devils fans are pathetic…harsh, maybe, but it seems fitting.
by Marty 4 Prez on Nov 26, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Parise isn’t signed for another 15 years (yet hopefully) and doesn’t constantly turn the puck over.
They both need to score.
na-na-na-na HEY! You SUCK!!
Parise is still a big money player playing big minutes. And he wasn’t all that good today.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
It’s funny, Parise seems to get a free pass from everyone for not living up to his expectations on the team, while everyone is so quick to blame Kovy for every little thing that happens during a game.
Seems? He definitely does. It’s mainly because Parise was once very, very, successful as a forward in NJ. The fanbase has a confidence he can return to that level. Kovalchuk has yet to hit those levels here like he did in Atlanta, despite putting up 27 points in 27 games after being acquired and being the top offensive player once the team got going in the second half of last season. Some fans think he should be a goal scoring machine, so they gripe when he gets assists instead of goals. Some fans think he should make the power play a consistent success, yet it hasn’t so it must be his fault to a point. Some fans think he should take games over and they gripe if he’s not skating fast enough or whatever. Parise hasn’t played well this season with or without Kovalchuk; he hasn’t played like a $6 million player at all. But because he has a more positive history here, he gets a pass. Kovalchuk hasn’t, so he doesn’t and so the gripe is that Kovalchuk can’t work with Parise – ignoring that Parise wasn’t exactly wrecking opposing players at evens while Kovalchuk was out.
That all said, the turnover Kovalchuk allowed was awful today and I can’t say I fully blame fans for booing him afterwards. On the other hand, Greene, Larsson, and Salvador have been more consistently stinky with the puck even today and have made some heinous turnovers of their own, and not one boo was uttered for them. I guess it’s because Brodeur or someone else bailed them out.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 26, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Spot on
The sad thing is from what I have seen, none of your well stated argument will have any influence on the Kovy haters. They have made up their mind that he is “selfish” and so must be responsible for every shortcoming.
Also, i don’t want to be a hypocrite, and be negative toward players, but Salvodor is really struggling in my view. He stand out in my mind in number of errant passes. I am hopeful it is just rust after being out a whole year.
The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall. - Vince Lombardi
by Devilssection21fan on Nov 26, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with you on Salvador. Its not just he passes. He is flat out getting beat on plays. I’m pulling hard for the guy. But so far he is just not getting it done more often then he is.
I saw a replay of that Okposo breakaway and Salvador really was doing his best statue impression. He’s 35 years old and he’s played 21 games so far this year – he ain’t getting better. Still, he and Volchenkov have been a force on the penalty kill.
Driving Play - The Blog with Three First Lines
Kovy and Parise have both been medicore at best. But in my mind Kovy has been a bit more noticable when on the ice than Parise (even despite the bad turnover today). He did play a hand in both goals for the Devils. parise on the other hand has been totally absent when you watch the games. It does make you wonder if he is 100 percent healthy. But I agree with John, Parise has a history of extreme sucess here, so he will take less heat for that reason than Kovy. that said, how talented are the devils? that question is up in the air because we dont know if P and K are still 40 goal scorers. IF they are, we have a pretty damn good team. if they arent, ehh, not nearly as good. The only good news i suppose is that if parise scores the 20 or so he is on pace for, there will be a lot less competition to resign him.
luckily you're not Pete Deboer.
Even if Kovy was badly out of his game after the big turnover, a real coach wouldn’t put the blame only one player because the complete team was just not playing well enough.
And this :
First of all, Kovy played mediocre at best.Any player with some speed and half a brain could have gained the offensive zone and dropped that pass to Larsson for the 1st goal.is completely unfair, just saying.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 26, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
no more excuses
I’m tired of hearing excuses for kovy. I’m not a hater, i was very excited about him coming here, and happy that they paid the big $ to get him here. I didn’t count his half season, and then there was the excuse of John McLean, and he definitely plaid better hockey when JL came back for the other half last year, but what’s up now? HE’S A $10 MILLION DOLLAR PLAYER FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! NO MORE EXCUSES, i’ve just about had it, i don’t want decent, i don’t want he managed some positive corsi, i don’t want nicce assist. I want him to do what other $10 million dollar players do, MAKE A DIFFERENCE! Oh he made a difference tonight, for the islanders, they should have named him their 1st star. I’m not giving parise a pass either, but parise is coming off a serious injury that kept him out pretty much the entire season last year and my expectations for him were “he’ll start lighting it up around december”. Also, he plays hard, he skates hard, he’s getting pumbled a lot in front of the net, and that to me shows he’s trying. OH and he doesn’t turn the puck over any where near as bad as kovy. Yea i know the 1st goal started off parise give away, but andy greene forgot he how to defend. I don’t mind when larsson messes up, he’s a rookie, that’s expected, but greene just got a serious $ raise in his contract and thus far has not justified it at all. These players need to be held accountable, if that results in them getting fined, or healthy scratch i dunno, i’m not Lou or Pete, but they need to be held accountable, NO MORE EXCUSES.
by poros all star on Nov 26, 2011 11:40 PM EST reply actions
For the record. He is a $6.7 million dollar player.
I’m not giving parise a pass either, but parise is coming off a serious injury that kept him out pretty much the entire season last year and my expectations for him were "he’ll start lighting it up around december".
Looks like your giving him a pass to me.
Yea i know the 1st goal started off parise give away, but andy greene forgot he how to defend.
Looks like another pass for parise here to. Blame it on Greene.
Note: It looked to me Parise gave up the puck because he got boarded. At least by the definition of the call they made on Salvador about 5 minutes later.
i was very excited about him coming here, and happy that they paid the big $ to get him here.
I think this is your problem. See I hated he came here. Now I’ve actually been more then fine with his play. Actually he has been better then I thought he would be.
by NJDOhio on Nov 27, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i’m not exactly giving parise a pass. I’m just saying where i set my expecations for him. Plus he’s not a $100 million dollar player. I know he’s playing for a contract and looking to be potentially at $6-7 million dollar/year player and right now he hasn’t justified that. But seriously clarkson has more goals than kovy. I know the spotlight is on him and he tends to get judged more harsh than the other players but that comes with the territory of being the team’s superstar. I’m not satisfied with his play. And while i don’t expect a hat trick every night these are my expecations for kovy. Out of 10 games i expect, 5-6 great games, 3-4 quiet games, and 1 bad game. And my definition of a great game means no costly turn overs, a goal and an assist. My definition of a quiet game is, no costly turn overs, no penalties, possibly a secondary assist. My definition of a bad game is, maybe one or two bad penalties, missed opportunities, and turn overs, but not ones like the one he gave up in front of brodeur, players of kovy’s caliber should never do that in my opinion. call me harsh, that’s just how i see it for the money he’s being paid and for the player he’s supposed to be… if ZP get’s his money i’ll be just as harsh. At least he forchecks hard
by poros all star on Nov 27, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
You should stop already, Who cares about Ilya getting $100 millions dollars in the next 15 years here ?
Who cares if Parise is playing for a contract ? his agent ? fair enough !
We want them to perform period. And If you want to talk about money related directly to the game, talk about players’ cap-hit. Parise makes $6 millions and Kovy $6.66667 millions, a big deal.
NEITHER KOVY NOR PARISE ARE PLAYING WELL. So, if you guys want to play hardball with the players, try to do it fairly at least, blame them both with the same intensity.
Yet, you’re playing hardball with Ilya once again… But at least Parise forechecks hard indeed.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 27, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
, i don’t want he managed some positive corsi, i don’t want nicce assist. I want him to do what other $10 million dollar players do, MAKE A DIFFERENCE
Positive Corsi is evidence the play’s going in the right direction when he’s on the ice; something Kovalchuk really hasn’t had here (and definitely not in Atlanta). That’s a difference. Also: Assists are handed out to players who made a difference in creating a goal.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 27, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
and while i understand what corsi measures, one nice assist doesn’t cut it for a player of kovy’s caliber (or for at least the money he’s being payed). In 17 games played he has 4 goals and 9 assists and sits at a -4. Albeit his game against the islanders wasn’t horrid, ( 2 assists), but the turnover overshadowed his overall performance, and that wasn’t his only mistake of the game, he fumbled the puck a few times on the PP while in the opponents zone. I’m just stating that in my opinion that play was unacceptable and it’s not the first time i’ve seen him cough up the puck like that, we remember this one cause it led to a goal. in comparison to other players of his pay grade/ caliber, you don’t see that kind of inconsitancy or mistakes. maybe i’m wrong, and like i said i’m a fan, but he needs to be held accountable.
by poros all star on Nov 27, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
You see, part of me sees your point. But its reaction to one bad play in a game where he did almost everything else right. Did it cost the team the game, sure. But consistently bad play the rest of the night from 90% of the other guys on the team is what left this team in a tie game at that point.
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 11:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I will agree that i’m pretty sour about that turnover but do you blame me? I’m ok with larsson doing that, i’m ok with fayne doing that, in fact i’m even ok with sykora doing that, but not kovy and it’s not the first time he’s coughed up the puck or made a bad play this year. The rest of the team didn’t help the cause yesterday afternoon but he’s your star, he’s supposed to rise above that and not make a bonehead play like that. Unless i’m not giving enough credit to the last place islanders or the 11 point season total (thus far) Grabner.
by poros all star on Nov 27, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Why are you OK with other players committing turnovers? Because they aren’t stars?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 27, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I just read through most of the comments on here, and boy, I have to say that I can’t express how grateful I am for us having John here. You do such a great job with the content, and with responding to all sorts of posts and comments. Thanks.
so no one is right except John? does he speak for you? or would you like to give your own reasons? was john right when he said Larsson wouldnt and shouldnt make the team? When he said Kovlachuk wouldnt and shouldnt be resigned? When he said there was no market for Langenbrunner or Arnott to be traded? When he says Pete DeBoer’s coaching is A ok despite the devils consistent inability to skate 60 minutes with him at the helm?
Your ability to misrepresent what people actually say to suit your personal narrative is outdone only by your ability to continually bring up past discussions in which your misrepresentations of what people say were proven and re-proven to be false as if they were somehow truer now than before.
You also proclaimed prophetically that Arnott and Langs could not be traded because of their (in your view) no trade clause which could not be overcome. I argued it was in everyone’s interest that a trade would transpire, I turned out to be right. Also, John held all the position of ascribed to him above. I dont see him suggesting i have misrepresented him, so perhaps you are once again erroneous and ignorant.
As it is every time you bring this up as some sort of justification for your misplaced righteous indignation and proof of your unfair persecution, I ask that you kindly link to the conversation in question. Oddly, you never do. Funny that.
No one said they couldn’t be traded. The conversations (and they were plural because you do enjoy beating the same drum) usually stemmed from your (and others) cries that Lou just trade them as if it were so simple. Many people pointed to, not only the NTCs as virtually impossible to get around if the player didn’t like the trade, but also brought up additional factors that made the possibility less likely like trade values being low and a limited number of teams with the right combination of need and cap space to take on the contracts.
Continually taking those legitimate points and paraphrasing it as, “you proclaimed prophetically that Arnott and Langs could not be traded” is precisely misrepresentation.
John isn’t always right, but he also freely admits when he was wrong.
by SonicJoe on Nov 27, 2011 10:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
thats a good point. but comments like “thank god john is here to respond to all theese bogus posts” from NJGuy is pretty ignorant because A) John is is not always right, to his own admition; B) it doesnt add anything to the discussion and only serves to disparage other peoples views without offering any argument as to why.
If MacLean wasn’t fired after 22 games there’s no way DeBoer is in trouble.
by rtrstevec on Nov 27, 2011 10:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I was certainly wrong in thinking the projector was off.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Nov 27, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Do you really think Deboer is in any trouble? This team is currently not very good, and its certainly not his fault.
And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?
New team, new players, underperforming superstars, disappointing sophomores, centerman #1 and #3 on LTIR, etc, etc
…Pete managed to get the same amount of points as Boudreau in Washington after 22 games. Enough said.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Nov 27, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
He is not in trouble yet. But were almost in December and the team has not responded to DeBoer in putting forth a consistent effort on the ice. Even more troublesome, his top two players and the linchpins of the Devils hopes perhaps for the next decade to come if Parise sticks around have not at all responded to him. If that continues for another couple months, you better believe DeBoer will be history.
His arguments carry more weight because he’s better, or more patient, when structuring them. Even the positions which I disagree with, or which are later proven to be invalid/ incorrect, are typically more supported by links, data, etc. rather than subjective views (“they’ve been mediocre”) or extreme conclusions (fire Deboer unless _______).
What Kovy has done for the Devils, and John has done for the fans.
Regarding Kovy:
Gets booed last year for the botched shoot out, now he is the ace on shoot outs.
Gets called “selfish” consistently, but I see him dishes pucks to other young players to get them going. Where would Palmieri be last year and Henrique be this year without Kovy around? No one can be sure , but probably not better.
Gets booed for turning the puck over that cost one game, but how many game winning / key goals has he scored this past 2 season. While he was out, were the Devils missing a guy who can get the puck through the zones? I think we did.
As for John – Just look at other SB nation coverages and see if you can find more comprehensive coverage than what we get from John. Right or wrong, John is entitled to his opinion, and at least he tells the Devils story from different angles, every game. I appreciate that.
by TaiDevils on Nov 27, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If anything, not selfish enough. Shoot the &#@% puck!
by rtrstevec on Nov 27, 2011 10:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Let's trade Kovalchuk for Jeff Carter #sarcasm
by Marty's Better #30 on Nov 27, 2011 12:23 AM EST reply actions
Didn't Catch the Game but 2 Points
1) People are hard on Kovy in a similar fashion to how Yankees fans are hard on A-Rod. Both players are high calibur, best of their class players who take up the spotlight and get paid the big bucks to do so. Unfortunately for Kovy, the Devils aren’t the Yankees and can’t spend an infinite amount of money to cover for when Kovalchuk is not playing well. Judging from the comments he played quite well except for the giveaway for the game winning goal, but similar to how he balked in the spotlight during shootouts in the beginning of last year, the fans will seize any opportunity to call him out when he doesn’t play well because he’s getting paid good money and he’s going to be here for a while.
2)I read a post above about firing Deboer and that is exactly what we should NOT do. And I am fully confidant that, as long as this team doesn’t absolutely tank and drop 15-20 games under .500, there is no way that Deboer will be canned within the next two years. It looks just as bad on Lou as it would for the entire franchise and will set the team back. Consistency needs to be built starting from the core players and working its way to the rest of the team. Parise and Kovalchuk need to step up.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle
by Tim G on Nov 27, 2011 1:32 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
This
I wrote something similar last year in a comment about “Blame the Superstar Syndrome.” Kovy’s the well-paid superstar, so any mistakes he makes will be viewed under a microscope. It’s a lot like Carlos Beltran striking out to end Game 7 of the 2006 NLCS. Beltran was one of the best players the Mets ever had, and yet a significant segment of the fans refused to embrace him because he took a called third strike. I suspect when it’s all said and done, Kovy will be one of the best offensive players the Devils ever had, and he will still only receive mixed feelings from the overall fanbase.
For what it’s worth, there was a play last year that I thought was far worse in the height of Kovy’s early-season struggles; he lost control of a puck during a shootout. This time, at least, the opposing player made a very, very good play.
And yes, don’t fire DeBoer. My hope for this season was for the Devils to tread water until Zajac got back, and then once Zajac returned, start making up a lot of points. They have mildly exceeded my expectations for them so far.
People who make $6.6M a season will always get scrutinized more than others. You can always say that “he’s human, he’ll make mistakes” but I think a lot of people who think like I do will say “then if he’s going to make mistakes he shouldn’t be paid $6.6M a year.” And I honestly believe that. Even with a cap, I don’t think some of these salaries are really worth the money. Maybe if you’re God, I’ll pay you $5M a year. I’ll even include up to $1M in bonuses if you score 50 goals in a season and hit a player with lightning after he high sticks you in the face.
"Everyone loves a comeback."
Disappointing. I said before the two game set that they needed 3 out of 4 points for this to not be a major disappointment and here we are.
A lot of times with fans it’s difficult to give credit to other teams and when our favorite team wins it’s because they were the better team and when they lose it’s because they didn’t ‘play their game’ or ‘gave the game away.’ In most cases that’s just fans being homer fans, but in this case it’s actually true: the Islanders are downright painful to watch, and yet the Devils actually played worse.
This game was brought to you by the letter D, for the team’s performance: disgusting, disappointing, disheartening, depressing, disillusioning, disaffecting, distasteful.
Player leadership
I didn’t look at all the posts, so maybe this has been discussed.But anyway, I think a problem for the Devils is lack of locker room leadership. There doesn’t seem to be anybody who can yell at players and motivate them to play harder. We’ve all seen way too many games where the Devils take shifts and even entire periods off. The one that comes immediately to mind is the Caps game, totally dominant in the first period, disappearing in the second and third. I even noticed Patrik being passive and lazy, not contesting for the puck, not making the effort. A veteran like him can’t do that. Physical fatigue is understandable, but the whole team doesn’t suddenly get tired between periods. I have a feeling this quitting is contagious once it starts to happen, and there is nobody like Dano, Stevens, or even Claude to take players to task. Players have to be responsible, and you need tough, veteran players who are respected to remind them of that. But the Devils don’t have guys like that.
This was mentioned last year as well. I just don’t buy it. Players are professional athletes, I really doubt that this is the problem.
Let’s please put this season in perspective. The Devils are currently tied for 8th in East, and are only 4 points out of 4th. Yes, 4th. The Devils are missing two of their top three centers. They have a rookie centering their two star players (one of whom is out of position). They rely heavily on a 19 year old defensemen to make plays and to eat up ~20 minutes of ice time a night.
I know that we, as a fanbase, are used to more from this team, but right now it’s best to realistic. The Devils are in decent position at this point in the season. There have been numerous tough losses (FLA and NYI, for example), but there have been just as many good wins.
Blow the Team up!
Losing to the Islanders is always disheartening. I’ve always hated the fact that the Devils were a team that could take on the best teams in the league and win convincingly at times, yet when they play the worst teams in the league, the Devs just forget to show up or severely underestimate the competition. Aggravating!
Anyway, this whole thing with Parise and Kovy not scoring is really problematic to say the least. I think the problem is that there is way TOO much talent on that line for it to mesh well and form some chemistry. Sure, it has its moments, but overall, it’s just not working. The last thing I want to do is split up a great line that works very well together, scores, and can shut down opposing team’s lines, i.e. the Elias, Sykora, Zubrus line. But something has to change to get two of the Top 10 scorers in the East the points that they should be putting up.
The clear problem is that both Parise and Kovy are both Left Wingers, and play their absolute best as such. Parise is struggling b/c he is trying to force plays to get Kovy the puck, and not focusing on his own game. As for Kovy, he just can’t seem to make it work on the RW… not his fault. He was one of the game’s most dominant Left Wingers for nearly a decade before coming to defense-first NJ. And now, while his defensive game is arguably improving (NYI game notwithstanding), his offense has been all but non-existent the past few seasons. But look what NJ has done to his style of play. It has forced him to play more defense, and placed him in spots on lines that do not suit is game. And don’t get me wrong, I’m no Kovy-follower. The truth is I like and respect both Kovy and Parise the same, even though Parise is more of a true Devil at this time. But things can be changed, and things can improve. Of course, getting Zajac and Josefson back would be a HUGE step. But until then, I say put Kovy on LW next to Elias with Sykora on RW, and have Zubrus play RW with Henrique centering Parise on the left where he is. Like I said, I cringe at the idea of spliting up the Elias, Sykora and Zubes line, but for now, until injuries replenish the team, NJ’s two best LW’s (Elias does not count b/c he’s currently playing great as the only decent center NJ has!), Kovy and Parise NEED to get their scoring touches back. Elias will still put up excellent points centering Kovy. Kovy should put up goals with a decent center such as Patty, Parise will no longer have to force a play or try to get Kovy the Puck all the time, and Henrique and Parise can continue to improve on the chemistry they are beginning to form with a big Right Winger named Zubrus who can dominate along the boards, get the puck out of the corner, and feed them when they are open.
Okay, enough ranting. I’ve said my peace. Now I’m going to go in a corner and cry as I try and remove the loss to the Islanders out of my skull.
by EliasStillRocks on Nov 28, 2011 4:16 AM EST reply actions
second game
This was only the second game i’ve been able to catch live and I had to make an account here to post some thoughts that kept nagging me during both these games. Sorry for the sloppy english
First, you can’t have a no vision forward centering two top class goalscorers. I’d rather have Carter or, heck, Clarksson between kovy and zach. As of now, the only one that benefits from that line up is Henrique, and I much rather see kovy and parise flourish than him.
Second, kovy is going out of his way to play like a playmaker and looks really awkward in this role. It’s not that he lacks the passing ability, it’s just that it seems to get him “down”, that and the fact that he is playing right wing makes no sense to me. I’m not really familiar with why Parise is lw at all seeing as he is a lefty like me.
Maybe We Go Back to Basics with the PP
I understand why they play Kovy on the PP. Blast away shots from the point. But given the fact that this hasn’t been happening, why don’t we just put 2 defensemen back on the point. While I know the shorthanded goal wasn’t a result of mis-played point play, I think most of the issues are coming from forwards playing a defense position.
From my observations, it looks like they’re using the point to set up the LW or RW of a one-timer. It looks like the go-to play at all times on the PP. A defenseman should be able to make that pass. You don’t need Kovy or Elias on the point (I actually prefer to have Elias on RW receiving that one-time pass if you’re going to stick to that strategy). The same should go for Kovy. Use him at RW on the PP to receive the pass from the defenseman.
Basically, I’d like to see more defense on the PP. I know, counterintuitive. But this PP isn’t working this year.
"Everyone loves a comeback."
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