Trade Parise At The Deadline?
by Mr. Boom on Dec 27, 2011 5:05 PM EST
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PrintThe Devils are playing the kind of hockey I thought they would this year. I know I come off as seeing that I have no hope in this franchise but I do. I believe though that for this club to have some long term success they are going to have to give up some pieces now to rebuild a little for the future.
In the 06-07 season the Flyers were abysmal. They were in a much worse position than we are in right now. They traded Peter Forsberg to Predators for Ryan Parent (who was a good prospect at the time) Scottie Upshall, a first and third rounder. This got them James Van Riemsdyk. They later used their lottery pick to get JVR.
There is only 1 true player the Devils could move to pay dividends down the road and that's Parise. Elias and Kovalchuk are going no where (Elias has a NMC and Kovy a NTC). Parise could easily garner us a first rounder and an extremely talented prospect given his age. Lou could even add in to the deal that if Zach re-signs with the team he was traded to in the offseason the Devils get another pick. Maybe we could even land a young goalie like Jonathan Bernier or Anders Lindback.
Also keep this in mind, Zach Parise given his age and and ability to resign with the team he's traded to is much more valuable than Forsberg was.
I know this is a very difficult thing to think about because we all love Zach and what he's done for the club but I think we have to keep our options open. As good as Zach is there's a possibility we can end up with a better player in this coming draft as this draft is supposed to be loaded with talent.
I'm just going to say that if a team is willing to load the Devils with draft picks and young talent I wouldn't hesitate to trade Zach as much as I love him as a player and a Devil. There's also the possibility that he doesn't resign with NJD and the Devils walk away empty handed though I think it's unlikely.
I know it's a bit soon to think about trading him at the deadline but this could be something that could transform the Devils into a good team for years to come.
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I will wait another month to even think about this. January is big.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
It’d have to be the right offer, and a superb one at that.
Say to Nashville (possibly along with our second) for;
Ellis
Lindback
a first
And that would still make me uneasy. Maybe if they take out the 1st, we give them our 1st instead of 2nd, and we get Suter too.
One thing I have perturbed with is the Devils swaying away from the tried and true formula that gave this team the identity it had to win multiple championships: a suffocating defense along with an incredible goalie. Over the past couple of years the team has become much more offensive minded along with the system. This was never the mainstay of the Devils organization and its surprising to see. What this team really needs, if they were willing to trade their captain in Parise, is a return in an all-star goaltender. Build from the goaltender out, thats the way a championship team is built. First goaltending, then defense, then offense.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle
I don’t understand these sorts of claims. Winning involves scoring more goals than the other team – it’s not all that important how it gets done, is it? Now I’ve stated on here that I think defense gives a team a better shot than offense, but hockey’s not like football or baseball – the best defense really is a good offense.
Also, I think reports of this team’s offensive explosion are greatly exaggerated. It was 30th in the league last year and middle of the pack this year.
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The problem is, the entire NHL becoming offensive minded, as it makes the game more enjoyable, supposedly. The good thing is, we have many defensive prospects, which keeps up with our old mantra. We also have several good goaltending prospects.
Now to the topic of this fanpost. I don’t think that we have to consider rebuilding at all. We have a pretty solid team, we can roll three full scoring lines when everybody is healthy. We have many defensive prospects who look promising and will proceed to patrol our blueline for many years to come. We have the greatest goaltender of all time who is unfortunately going through some ups and downs, but is still a great goaltender. As I said before, we have several good goaltending prospects, who look to become solid goaltenders. Scott Wedgewood seems to be able to step up and contribute, as he was just selected to be Canada’s backup goaltender for the U-20 tournament, and as I believe Tom reported, he verily well has a chance to get the starting job.
Now why would we trade our captain and one of our best offensive players to get a different goaltender, a low impact player, and a top defenseman who can just walk when the offseason comes? Parise says that he wants to resign, and if you ask me, Lou is going to offer an extension as soon as he is able to after the new year.
Go ahead and speculate if you want to, but I’m telling you that it is not going to happen.
I don’t understand these sorts of claims. Winning involves scoring more goals than the other team – it’s not all that important how it gets done, is it? Now I’ve stated on here that I think defense gives a team a better shot than offense, but hockey’s not like football or baseball – the best defense really is a good offense. .
Yes, I agree it doesn’t necessarily matter how it gets done. However, when you trade the identity of a team to make it consistent with the trends of the league, I think it can result in a negative impact. Historically the Devils have had some great offensive players on their team when they won their cups; truly underrated I would say. The difference now is the defensive core we have now, as it has been over the past several years, is a shell of its former self. I would love to have some high level defensemen on this team in exchange for some of our forwards.
Also, I think reports of this team’s offensive explosion are greatly exaggerated. It was 30th in the league last year and middle of the pack this year
Well I didn’t say that this team was particularly GOOD on the offensive end, rather, that is the type of strategy that management is trying to implement via how the team is built, coaching etc. ;)
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle
and to reiterate (and again I would love if SBNation gave you the option to edit your comments…its kind of mind-boggling that we don’t have that option haha), if we traded Parise I would want an all-star goaltender first, then to build from the goalie outward. That can be all encompassed as defense I suppose, but that is where I would target if I were Lou. I’m sure he’s got something up his sleeve after Brodeur retires.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle
a first and third rounder. This got them James Van Riemsdyk.
You’ve got your information wrong. James vanRiemsdyk came from the Flyers’ own first-round pick (#2 overall after Chicago won the Draft Lottery). Philadelphia never exercised the Nashville 1st-round pick…. rather, they traded it back to Nashville for negotiating rights to pending FAs Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell — and the Flyers eventually re-signed both players. I went through this (and other commentary on how the Flyers rebuilt so quickly) in a blog piece I wrote about thirteen months ago during the depths of the MacLean Error.
The Devils don’t have the depth of young talent Philadelphia was marshalling during their Lost Season, short of securing three or four foundation pieces from a Parise trade. The Devils also aren’t going to spend the money to flesh out the roster the way Philly has, which will prevent the roster from being fleshed out as robustly as one might like. In short, I wouldn’t use that Flyers club as a good comparison for this one.
….
As for rebuilding, I don’t know that there’s the ability to tear down this club and start over “from scratch” to any degree. It might be helpful from a financial standpoint if most of the veterans were sent packing and the Devils iced a lineup of youth near the salary floor, but I don’t see the depth of young talent to quickly rebuild here.
Trading Parise would likely set back that process even further, because I don’t know that you’re going to get a bedrock piece for him. And if Parise is traded away with the team announcing it will rebuild, what happens next? Does Elias ask for a chance to win another Cup somewhere? Does Kovalchuk get frustrated being put back into the same situation he spent nearly a decade in Atlanta tolerating? Does Zajac ask out, or simply depart as a UFA when his contract expires?
Another handicap: The Devils still owe the League a 1st-round pick in the next few years. If you go into a rebuilding process, there’s a really good chance you’ll be giving up a premium pick for that privilege.
I agree with Tim G. If Parise was traded for a goalie, I think all of our reactions might be different here. Because that’s the other elephant in the room.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
If we trade Parise for a goalie, the expectations placed on the guy will be put at such a level that he (the new goalie) might never live up to them. In return for an All-Star and the face of the franchise, fans will likely expect a guy who can be an elite starter for many years to come.
Goaltending is a definite concern to be addressed going forward, perhaps as soon as the trade deadline if it appears the Devils are likely to make the postseason tournament and if it also appears that Marty/Moose aren’t the answer. That doesn’t mean we need to address it with Zach Parise as our trade chip. Nor should we be in such a rush to solve one problem (goaltending) by creating another (a need for another elite two-way winger).
You don’t trade a player like Parise for a goalie, even as turning UFA. Basically the most valuable trade for the Devils would be for prospect(s) and/or round pick(s). Philly and Nashville will regret to have spent that much money on goalies.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Dec 28, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Your right.
Ok I misunderstood the Peter Forsberg trade but I think the Devils would be in a similar situation as the Flyers if they traded Parise. I’m not oreaching an entire rebuild of the club from top to bottom just thinking trading Parise to get some pieces and then slowly trade another player like Zajac. I should re-title this post.
As good as Zach is there’s a possibility we can end up with a better player in this coming draft as this draft is supposed to be loaded with talent.
It’s going to be a small possibility. Drafting a player who goes on to have a successful NHL career is rare enough in of itself, much less someone who has been an all-star all-around winger like Parise (pre-injury).
If Parise doesn’t want to stay or he demands way too much money (sorry, Zach, you’re not playing as well as Elias and he’s making just as much as you are now), then a trade should be taken into consideration. However, I wouldn’t expect a big return either way. Just look at what the Kovalchuk trade cost: a second-tier prospect who has done little; a winger who has some skill but has been bouncing around the league before he’s even 26; a first round pick which was dealt; and a defenseman who wasn’t as good as he once was years ago with Paul Martin. And that was for a pending-UFA Kovalchuk during a very productive season. A pending-UFA Parise who isn’t lighting it up isn’t going to command even that much. I’m not doubting Lou’s ability to find a good deal; but I wouldn’t expect whoever does come back from a potential Parise trade to lead the Devils into a new era.
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If the Devils were to get within the top 5 in the next years draft or even better i'd say that's can't miss range
There are a couple reasons why the kovalchuk scenario and the parise scenario are differeny.
1) Atlanta knew for a fact Kovalchuk was walking after the year. They knew they had to trade him.
2) Everyone knew Kovalchuk was walking after the year. This greatly reduced his value and other teams wouldn’t have had to fork over as much to get kovy in return. Basically this put Atlanta in a terrible spot come negotiating time.
If Lou says Parise is on the market give me your best deals there are quite a number of teams that would love to make that deal. Also if Lou doesn’t feel the teams didn’t offer enough he could simply walk away. Another words ownership won’t force him to trade Zach, and Zach won’t force Lou to trade him. No harm no foul.
You have to give up value to get value, I just think this is something that should be looked into. If Zach wasn’t traded I wouldn’t be so upset either.
You can’t analyze the return retroactively. At the time Bergfors was a rookie who looked to be a shoe-in as a consistent 20 goal scorer. Cormier, while over-hyped, was widely regarded as a sure fire third line center. Oduya was struggling in 09-10 but coming off great back-to-back seasons. Plus a first.
No one could have predicted that each of Bergfors, Cormier, and Oduya would nose-dive.
Parise will also yield a better return than what we gave for Kovalchuk at the time. Kovalchuk, despite his goal scoring prowess, always drew ire for perceived selfishness and a lack of defensive effort. Parise is loved by everyone and the perfect playoff player.
No one could have predicted that each of Bergfors, Cormier, and Oduya would nose-dive.
Besides General Managers ?
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Dec 28, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
No one could have predicted that each of Bergfors, Cormier, and Oduya would nose-dive.
No one except for just about everyone.
Bergfors was full of unrealized potential that was increasingly apparent he’d never realize.
Oduya showed that his performances leading up to his new contract was more fluke and/or due to circumstances than his being a good enough player and most everyone was glad to be rid of his unwarranted cap hit at the time.
Cormier was a projected 3rd liner, which is typically the best case scenario, so coupled with his flailing elbows, no one should have had very high expectations for him.
Bergfors was full of unrealized potential that was increasingly apparent he’d never realize.
Revisionist history. No one thought this back in 2010 except for maybe Jacques Lemaire. I don’t know if you remember, but it took Kovalchuk a real long time to eclipse Bergfors’s point total in 2010-11. Bergfors was also going up against the opponent’s best in Atlanta. Bergfors either has some serious off-ice issues or he’s deliberately not listening to his coaches, because he’s clearly got NHL skill.
Oduya showed that his performances leading up to his new contract was more fluke and/or due to circumstances than his being a good enough player and most everyone was glad to be rid of his unwarranted cap hit at the time.
True, but the Devils’ defense in that playoff series against the Flyers was pretty rotten and it might’ve been nice to have him.
Cormier was a projected 3rd liner, which is typically the best case scenario, so coupled with his flailing elbows, no one should have had very high expectations for him.
Cormier is a physical player who was thought of highly enough to be named the captain of Team Canada at the WJCs. The question about him was whether or not his offense would make it to the NHL. Guys who can take faceoffs, hit, play solid defense, and chip in some goals are hard to come by. Think of someone like Paul Gaustad, it’s exactly the sort of player Atlanta was unable to develop themselves and sorely needed in their organization. There’s still time for him to become that kind of player, too.
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Revisionist history.
Not at all. Very few people were all that broken up by his departure except for a few upset about losing his potential on a team that needed forward, and especially RW, depth.
He had his moments, like Tedenby nowadays, but never seemed to put it all together. He was technically a rookie when he was traded, but he had games in the two prior seasons before being sent back down and had 54 before the trade where it appeared his greatest attribute was always playing well against the Penguins.
He was and is young and no one can say what the future will bring for him, but I think many people could have predicted his future. The only people really excited about Bergfors when he went to Atlanta were Thrashers’ fans as his shine had worn off around here.
True, but the Devils’ defense in that playoff series against the Flyers was pretty rotten and it might’ve been nice to have him.
That could be said about a lot of players, including Langenbrunner.
Cormier is a physical player who was thought of highly enough to be named the captain of Team Canada at the WJCs.
I’m not bashing the guy, merely pointing out that a lot of people had too high of expectations for him. He was never going to be a top six guy, and though his role has value, he was touted during and after the trade as much more than he was.
As you say, the question was whether his scoring would translate and there were many who didn’t think it would… so his “nose-dive” wasn’t exactly a huge surprise.
few people were upset to get rid of bergfors because the devils were getting ilya kovalchuk back. if we were getting a 2nd round pick or a rental defenseman, things would be a lot different.
cormier’s season was kinda derailed by an injury last year. he is still only 21. plenty of time for him to find his place.
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Parise is loved by everyone and the perfect playoff player.
Not yet, he’s got to prove a lot of things in playoffs.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Dec 28, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
While we’re discussing players we sent away that took bad turns…
On the flip-side I’m kind of regretting having traded away Matt Halischuk for Jason Arnott. Halischuk has turned into a pretty consistent player for the Predators.
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Halischuk really had no spot here, though. It’d be nice to have him, but he’d be a fourth line winger. I also don’t think he’s very good.
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I agree that while he’s getting 2nd/3rd line ice time in Nashville he’d be a fourth line winger in NJ. I believe he’d be more productive than our carnival of fourth-liners and would be preferable to Palmieri/Zharkov. Just my 2c. I think we need to agree to disagree here but it’s a moot point because he’s not coming back haha!
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They also got that 2nd round pick (which became Magnus Hellberg). The Devils could’ve used that pick to grab a decent prospect (Khokhlachev, Saad)
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Dec 28, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Losing that 2nd round pick was the worst part of that deal, especially considering that they will be losing other picks in the future.
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by LaserVortex888 on Dec 28, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say no to that pretty easily
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field? ~Jim Bouton
by LaserVortex888 on Dec 29, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Suter is a top ten D like Parise is a top ten forward. Josi is a very good prospect who is NHL ready. Halischuk, depth forward. That return is pretty fair, I think. I wouldn’t do it though because of course Suter, the main piece, could walk on July 1 and I bet Parise would be an easier sign than Suter.
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by red army line on Jan 2, 2012 4:26 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Actually scrap that the Devils need a servicable top six winger capable of PP time in any return.
I’d deal Parise for Suter and Hornqvist.
I’d laugh my balls off at that deal.
"Its the letter D"
by Rory B. Bellows on Dec 28, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
If Lou knows Parise won’t resign in NJ and he thinks Suter would sign a contract to play in NJ long-term, then I could see Lou making that sort of a trade. But I think that’s a big stretch and would require Lou to be able to talk to Suter or his Agent about it which I don’t think he’s allowed to do.
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You can trade for negotiating rights, but not until the offseason
And it is illegal to talk to a player under contract. There is no way Lou trades for Suter.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field? ~Jim Bouton
by LaserVortex888 on Dec 28, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
How about a Dman who can quarterback the PP?
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
Suggestions?
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like Foster Larsson or Fayne? Hmm
And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?
But DeBoer has been content using Elias and/ or Kovy too often this season.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
Last season’s power-play had Kovalchuk and Rolston at the points and didn’t have the sort of SHG problems we’re having this season. Maybe Rolston was worth the cap hit?
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Or Lemaire was worth it. If so, that’s much more troublesome right now.
I have respect for most sports fans with 2 exceptions: NY Ranger fans who grew up in New Jersey, and Dallas Cowboy fans who can't name the capital of Texas.
But Adam Oates was still the assistant coach working the Power Play under MacLean, Lemaire and now DeBoer, wasn’t he?
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No. Green’s broken down. He’s probably going to play 4 games and then get concussed
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Dec 28, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
Can you get concussed in the groin? I thought Mike Green’s problems were all in the groin-region.
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he’s had concussion issues too, he missed most of last season with one (and in last year’s playoff series vs the Douchecanoes they targeted his head)
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Dec 29, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Injuries
Enough said
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field? ~Jim Bouton
by LaserVortex888 on Dec 28, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
If we have to trade him than so be it because he can bring in an extremely high amount of talent. But for all we know Lou could have a deal already waiting for him to sign in the new year (highly doubt it, but you never know)…so I wouldn’t come to any fast conclusions yet.
"Don't mess with the Devil buddy, were number one, we beat anybody! WE'RE THE DEVILS! THE DEVILS!"-David Puddy
If Parise won't re-sign
then trade him for a pick and a goalie. See who will give the highest round pick and the best goalie (probably one of the names that’s been thrown around here) and pull the trigger. Don’t let Zach walk.
I’m still going to assume that Zach is re-signing, though, and none of this will matter. My fingers are crossed that Zach and Lou already have a deal in place and are just waiting for the official waiting period to end so they can announce it and move on.
You aren’t getting one of those “premium young goalies” for 20-odd games of Zach Parise. You absolutely are not getting one of those “premium young goalies” and a draft pick for him. Those guys are worth a mint on the open market, and teams won’t trade them unless they’re getting a substantial return on their investment.
Now, if you wanted Roberto Luongo and his deplorable contract for 20-odd games of Zach Parise, Vancouver might be interested….
Those guys are worth a mint on the open market
I wouldn’t be so sure. 20 games of Parise plus first rights to negotiate with him are worth much more. Goalies are hit or miss, and none of the “bigger name” young goalies (meaning Lindback, Bernier, Schnider, even Holtby or Markstrom) have shown that they can handle playing 60+ games a season yet, let alone at a high level. All have potential yes, but you can’t base a trade solely on that.
In addition, goalies (minus the recent Rinne signing) have been getting paid less and less. Teams have found out that a stellar defense can cover up goaltending weakness. I’d argue great defensemen are easily worth more.
As for the Devils’ situation, they have a few promising goalies in Kinkaid and Wedgewood, with Clermont and Frazee just behind them. If were were to trade Parise, I’d rather get another solid defensemen, maybe Suter.
The last two prominent “young goaltender” trades netted a heck of a lot more than 20-odd games of Zach Parise would be worth:
- Jaroslav Halak to St. Louis for Lars Eller and Ian Schultz. At the time, Eller and Schultz were two of the Blues’ top prospects.
- Semyon Varlamov to Colorado for a 1st-round pick and a conditional 2nd-round pick. Bear in mind that Colorado is no shoo-in to make the playoffs, so that 1st-round pick could be very high in next year’s draft.
Do you really think Cory Schneider or Anders Lindbeck or Tuuka Rask or Jonathan Bernier (or whomever else) can’t reap their franchise more of a return? The only way I see one of those teams trading their young goalie for Parise is if they suffer significant injuries on their forward lines and need Parise to step in and lead their team. Otherwise, those clubs will either hold onto their goalie (if they aren’t forced by finances and free agency to make a trade) or trade him for a significantly greater return.
The amount of money that top-end goalies command isn’t particularly relevant to this sort of trade talk. In a salary cap system, it is very beneficial to have an infusion of young players under your control who don’t make a whole lot of money — it balances out the big contracts to your veterans.
The last prominent midseason “top scorer in his prime” trade (minus Salmela and Cormier, which I see as a wash) essentially 20 something games of Kovy (who the entire league knew Atlanta couldn’t keep, and were therefore trading from a position of weakness) for the equivalent of 2 1st rounders and a mid-pairing NHL defensemen. Even more recently, Carter nets Vorachek (a top 10 pick) and another pick at #8, while Richards gets Schenn (regarded as the best prospect not in the NHL), Simmons (probably a second liner at best, 3rd at worst), and a pick as well.
I don’t see how, especially in light of what Atlanta/Winnipeg was able to get for Kovy, Parise wouldn’t be worth more than 2 top prospects or a 1st and a 3rd. IMO, I see Parise netting at least that, if not more if we sweeten the deal with a second seeing as we have two thing year (one from the Arnott trade).
Granted, Parise doesn’t possess the pure goal scoring skill as Kovy, but has so many more qualities.
for the equivalent of 2 1st rounders and a mid-pairing NHL defensemen.
That’s one way to put it, but that’s what an old friend of mine would call ‘putting lipstick on a pig’.
Even more recently, Carter nets Vorachek (a top 10 pick) and another pick at #8, while Richards gets Schenn…
Carter and Richards were signed long-term to cap friendly deals, and were traded during the off season. Different from the topic at hand in just about every imaginable way.
That’s one way to put it, but that’s what an old friend of mine would call ‘putting lipstick on a pig’.
Not at all. At the time, Bergfors was still a highly regarded prospect and was putting together a decent rookie season. The 1st rounder is self explanatory and Oduya, while having an off-year, was coming off consecutive high 20 point seasons. The value, since debunked, was there, or at least the appearance of value. Call it whatever you want. That’s what Atlanta traded for.
Different from the topic at hand in just about every imaginable way.
Different situation, of course, but some of the same issues were at hand. Holgren was trading (at least in Carter’s perspective) from a position of weakness, as he needed to clear cap space.
As I currently lack the motivation to sift through the archives for examples of the growing frustrations around here about both Bergfors and Oduya leading up to the trade, we’ll just agree to disagree.
Suffice it to say, it doesn’t come as a very big surprise to many that both players continue to not be very good.
Different situation, of course, but some of the same issues were at hand. Holgren was trading (at least in Carter’s perspective) from a position of weakness, as he needed to clear cap space.
He needed to clear space but not in a traditional sense. He wasn’t over the cap or otherwise painted into a corner with the season looming; it was June and he wanted to overpay a goalie (and many suspect, clear out some locker room distractions). If he didn’t get what he wanted, his team wouldn’t have exactly have been in bad shape if he had to keep both players. The hauls he got for them shows that Holmgren either wasn’t bargaining from a position of weakness, or he’s an absolute genius… and we know he ain’t no genius.
Neither of those players belong in the discussion because their situations were completely unlike a situation that would have Lou trading Parise at the trade deadline.
As a side note, after the game today I jumped in the car to head somewhere and caught Matt Laughlin chatting with Zach and, of course, asking him about his contract since one could legally be signed tomorrow, and when asked if he expected anything to happen or if there’d been any talks yet Parise said that he did and that there had been. Knowing Lou’s usual refusal to talk contracts during the season, I took it as good news that Zach mentioned there have been some talks already.
As I currently lack the motivation to sift through the archives for examples of the growing frustrations around here about both Bergfors and Oduya leading up to the trade, we’ll just agree to disagree.
Frustrations do not equal a bad value. While on the Devils (under Lemaire no less), Bergfors was on pace for a 41 point, 20ish goal season. Not a bad debut at all for a rookie. Oduya was clearly struggling, but had shown he could be a viable top 4 defenseman. That they aren’t very good now has no real value to the discussion at hand, which was what value does Parise have on the market given what Kovy (a similar play/situation) demanded.
Continued frustrations led to in-depth discussions and statistical analyses. Both players were anguished over and made excuses for.
Bergfors finished the year splitting his 81 games between the two teams on his pace with 21 goals (9 on the PP) and 44 points, finishing at -10.
It’s not possible to my knowledge to separate the final stats at Behind the Net between his time in NJ and Atlanta, and there’s no denying he ended up with not terrible stats, but at the time he was traded the general consensus was that it was no big loss.
It was the same for Oduya. He played his way into a nice contract and then disappeared. Part of the ease with which many were willing to part with him were that he clearly wasn’t living up to his contract and money was tight, but there was analysis done showing that his drop off was less fluke and more a probable career path.
That they aren’t very good now has no real value to the discussion at hand, which was what value does Parise have on the market given what Kovy (a similar play/situation) demanded.
Indeed. The point is that it was pretty well known at the time that they weren’t great players and probably wouldn’t be in the future. Atlanta traded for potential and struck out. Their play now isn’t relevant except that it was predicted. It’s easy to put lipstick on the pig and say Atlanta got a nice haul that just didn’t work out, but the reality is that they got what they traded for and it shouldn’t surprise anyone what that turned out to be.
In that respect it’s not really plausible to assume Parise will bring much more unless Lou commits highway robbery.
I only said “the highest round pick and the best goalie” that teams would offer, and I think you’re valuing these backups a bit higher than they deserve. I’ve talked to a few Canucks fans and even they say that the team has a lot of quality goalies in the minors and could easily part with Schneider and replace him with someone in their system.
BTW, bringing up that overrated emotional trainwreck in Luongo was a joke, right?
I can see the Devs trading Parise if they can’t sign him. What I can’t imagine is having the primary player in return being a goalie.
We’ll see. I think there is a league rule that he can’t sign before January 1, so no point worrying about it until then. For all we know, in one week Parise will have his deal.
What's with all the we need a goaltender talk...
1) Marty and Moose might come back for another year , next year (and cheap).
2) We have soooo many young talented goalie prospets right now as is..
3) In Lou We Trust
"Daneyko got mad when Kaminski said he was going to knock his teeth out. Dano has only two teeth left, so you can't say that to Dano." - Jaques
1) They both kinda suck, and that isn’t an advisable course of action.
2) Goalie prospects are crap shoots.
3) Trusting in Lou to do what’s necessary doesn’t mean one can’t talk about what’s necessary.
Moose and Brodeur suck?? They didn’t this year, and Moose has been good for most of the year.
And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?
They didn’t before this year *
And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?
I said “kinda” suck.
Right now they’re occasionally helping the team win and occasionally helping them lose. Their deterioration seems to be accelerating, and bringing them both back next year would be a mistake.
Let's be honest Brodeur and Hedberg are slightly below average by league standards.
Stats aside I can name 20 goalies i’d rather have.
20 goalies? I’d say that’s a stretch. I would call both of them average. Average is not bad for their ages, but during a time when the entire team is very clearly rebuilding and instilling youth throughout all aspects, the one aspect that has yet to be impacted is goaltending. This is an inevitable problem to fix – the question is, how much time is Lou willing to buy before replacing Brodeur with the next franchise goalie.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle
You want a list?
Here’s the people I think are clear cut better
Lundqvist
Thomas
Fleury
Quick
Luongo
Rask
Bryzgalov
Price
Miller
Rinne
Schneider
Ward
Howard
The guys who you could make an argument are better
Niemmi
Lehtonen
Backstrom
Theodore
Crawford
Kiprusoff
Varlamov
Khabibulin
Maybe it’s not 20 guys but there are a lot of goalies I’d rather have.
Maybe cause of age, but to have starting your team? Id take Brodeur over many of them. Howard isn’t even close to “clear cut better” He plays infront of an unbelievable team.
And Kovalchuk speeds away, great moves, busting through, DID YOU SEE THAT?
Howard still has a .929 save % so he is physically making the saves.
You can’t honestly say you wouldn’t rather have him over hedberg or brodeur
Aww, Lou could easily sign the great Dan Ellis who becomes a UFA this off-season.
Seriously, there are a number of potential fill-ins at backup for what Moose is making or less if one of the two doesn’t come back Lou could go that route. If neither comes back, I suppose we could live with two of Vokoun, Gustavsson, Niittymaki, Biron, Backlund, Conklin, or Raycroft for a season or two. All UFA come July 1.
Go Devils
Go Jets
If goalie prospects are a crap shoot (which they are) then why would we want to trade Parise for a goalie prospect?
There are prospects like Holtby, unproven in the NHL, and prospects like Schneider or Rask, proven as backup but not as starter.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Jan 2, 2012 4:32 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
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