2011 Offseason: The Potential Impact of RFAs on New Jersey Devils' Salary Cap
by John Fischer on May 13, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
in Devils Issues, Views & Analysis
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The New Jersey Devils are in a tight spot when it comes to their salary cap for the 2011-12 season.
According to CapGeek's team chart, they have 17 players already signed for next season for a total of $52,177,500. Under the current salary cap upper limit, this is $7,222,500 in space. They nearly have a full roster - they only need to have a second goaltender to meet the minimum roster size. But I highly doubt the Devils will let all of their free agents walk. They probably will keep their restricted free agents, particularly that Zach Parise fellow.
However, doing even just that presents a problem. The best way to keep their restricted free agents are to offer them qualifying offers on June 27. And qualifying offers have a required pay raise for players who have earned certain salaries. Even if the salary cap does raise up to a reported number of $62.2 million (source - Larry Brooks of the NY Post), the Devils would only have approximately $10,022,500 to spend on all of these free agents. That may seem like enough, but as I'll show after the jump, it's going to be really tight to even just keep their RFAs with that much space.
CBA Reminder: League Minimum Salaries & Qualifying Offers
I want to highlight two items from the NHL-NHLPA Collective Bargaining Agreement that will be important to note for this coming season. First, the NHL minimum salary will increase for 2011-12 from $500,000 to $525,000 as per Article 11.12. Second, impending restricted free agents can have their rights retained by their team (and get draft pick compensation if an offer sheet is tendered and signed) through a qualifying offer. This is covered in Article 10.2.(a),(ii). NHL teams can begin offering qualifying offers on June 27, which can be accepted on July 1 or automatically expire on July 15. The NHL's CBA page has a good summary of what is required to be tendered for a qualifying offer.
QUALIFYING OFFERS
How will qualifying offers work?
Players earning $660,000 or less will be entitled to qualifying offers (QO) at 110% of their prior year's salary; players earning more than $660,000 and up to $1 million will be entitled to QOs at 105% of prior year's salary; players earning more than $1 million will be entitled to QO at 100% of their prior year's salary.
Please note that qualifying offers are based on the player's salary of the final year of their contract - not their cap hit.
The Cost of Qualifying the Devils' Restricted Free Agents
The Devils have six restricted free agents on their NHL roster at the end of last season. Per Article 10.2.(a).(iv) the Devils either have tender them a qualifying offer, take them to arbitration, or let them become unrestricted free agents on July 1. For the sake of argument, let's say the Devils will want to keep all six RFAs. Using the salary information at CapGeek, I've calculated what their minimum qualifying offer may be.
| NHL Devils RFA | 2010-11 Salary | Q.O. Minimum | Difference |
| Zach Parise | $5,000,000 | $5,000,000 | $0 |
| Vladimir Zharkov | $610,000 | $671,000 | $61,000 |
| Matt Corrente | $600,000 | $660,000 | $60,000 |
| Anssi Salmela | $625,000 | $687,500 | $62,500 |
| Matt Taormina | $510,000 | $561,000 | $51,000 |
| Mark Fraser | $500,000 | $550,000 | $50,000 |
| Total | $7,845,000 | $8,129,500 | $284,500 |
Everyone but Parise would stand to make 110% off their 2010-11 salary for the next season. Individually that's not a lot of money and the total doesn't seem like much on it's own. It's just more than half of a NHL minimum salary deal next season, after all.
Yet, please remember that the Devils only have so much cap space to put these guys back on the books. Even if we assume the incredibly unlikely event that the players all accept and sign for the minimum qualifying offer happens, the Devils will need $8.13 million of total cap space to make that up. Under the current cap ceiling of $59.4 million, the Devils wouldn't be able to do it. They would be over by $907,000. They could go above the cap by that much during the offseason; but they'll need to make moves to get under by the time the season starts.
If we consider the higher ceiling of $62.2 million, the Devils would then have $1,893,000 in cap space to use for a second goaltender (either from within or sign UFA) and other players. If we assume that second goaltender will only cost a league minimum salary, then that leaves $1,368,000 at most for other players or breathing room for an in-season trade and/or calling up players as needed. The Devils may be able to live with that, assuming they're fine being close to the ceiling for another full season. Of course, we should hope the upper limit gets higher if only for having more space.
However, let's be real. There's no way the Devils are going to sign all six RFAs at the minimum qualifying offer number for next season. At the very least, Parise is going to demand and command a salary higher than $5 million for next season. I can see it being closer to $7 million, which will present a major headache all on it's own. The more he wants, the less space available to keep these RFAs, much less keep Andy Greene or sign other impending UFA players like a goaltender. Even at the potential $62.2 million upper limit, if Parise gets a cap hit higher than $6,893,000, then the Devils can't even keep all of their restricted free agents at the value of their minimum qualifying offer - much less fill out their roster. Throw in the possibility of the other five wanting better salaries than they made last season, and what little space the Devils would have with a higher upper limit is vanished.
Oh, and it gets tougher if the Devils qualify their four RFAs not on the NHL roster and moves them up. Yes, Jeff Frazee would be getting more than a league minimum salary:
| Non-NHL Devils RFA | 2010-11 Salary | Q.O. Minimum | Difference |
| Alexander Vasyunov | $685,000 | $719,250 | $34,250 |
| Jeff Frazee | $550,000 | $605,000 | $55,000 |
| Nathan Perkovich | $515,000 | $566,500 | $51,500 |
| Steven Zalewski | $500,000 | $550,000 | $50,000 |
But given they're in Albany already, I'm not terribly concerned with them for the time being.
Maneuverability with RFAs
Fortunately, the Devils do have some maneuverability. Not much, but some wiggle room can be had.
As I noted with the CBA, if the Devils don't tender a qualifying offer to a RFA, then they become an unrestricted free agent. In theory, the Devils can simply let some of these RFAs go free and then sign them to lower salaries on July 1. The incentive in return could be a one-way contract instead of a two-way deal, which would be of interest for Taormina, Corrente, and Zharkov - who were all on two-way deals. This method wouldn't provide any savings for Matt Taormina but it would for Matthew Corrente ($75,000) and Vladimir Zharkov ($85,000), which could give the Devils a little more breathing room. This wouldn't make sense for Salmela or Fraser since they're coming off one-way deals where they made more than the league minimum. I don't see them taking a pay cut at this juncture unless they're guaranteed a NHL spot or something substantial like that.
More simply, the Devils can cut more significant space by not tendering one or two of these six players and letting them go as UFAs. This is a likely scenario for the defensemen involved. Do the Devils really need Mark Fraser and Matthew Corrente on the roster when either one would suffice? Or if there is a defenseman in the system that is expected to rise up the depth chart soon, then would the Devils make space for that player now? It's like releasing a player with respect to the salary cap. Clearing $500,000 to $600,000 would be more significant than just signing a RFA to lesser money; that's worth a NHL player in of itself.
Lastly, I want to point out this clause in the CBA for RFAs - Section 10.2.(iii):
A Club's Qualifying Offer must be a One-Way Qualifying Offer if the applicable Player has: (A) actually played (excluding games missed for injury, illness or disability) 180 or more NHL Games in the previous three (3) NHL Seasons, (B) played at least sixty (60) NHL Games in the previous NHL Season, and (C) not cleared Waivers in the period between the 12th day prior to the commencement of the previous Regular Season and the end of a Club's previous Playing Season. For purposes hereof only, a goaltender is deemed to have played an NHL Game when he was dressed and on the bench as a backup. In all other cases, a Qualifying Offer may be a Two-Way Qualifying Offer.
The only RFA I believe this applies to is Zach Parise, who's going to get a very large one way deal of some length this summer anyway. This means everyone else can be tendered a two-way qualifying offer. So, in theory, the Devils can sign all of these guys and move whoever to Albany just to make some additional space. Not everyone - the Devils would have only five defensemen on their NHL roster if all of the non-Parise RFAs go down. At least one RFA defenseman would have to stay up, provided Greene and Jay Leach aren't kept and Bryce Salvador can actually play hockey. This is why I'm not really concerned with Frazee, Perkovich, Zalewski, and Vasyunov. They were in Albany last season on two-way deals; and they're only going to be factors if they are ever called up.
I'm not sure how happy the five NHL RFAs would be about being put on a two-way qualifying offer. Namely, Salmela and Fraser. Both are coming off one-way deals in this offseason. If I were them, I wouldn't be keen on agreeing to a two-way deal after being on a one-way deal. Then there's the matter with Zharkov. He had non-insignificant call ups to the NHL team in the last two seasons, I could see how he would prefer a one-way deal and the security and confidence that comes with such a contract. Another two-way deal may send the message to him that his future with New Jersey isn't very bright.
That all said, neither of these methods will provide a lot of additional cap space unless taken to some extreme. I can see the Devils doing a mix of this. For example, they can not tender a RFA and let him loose as an UFA; do the same but retain them at a lower salary; and sign the rest and make a decision later whether to move them up or down.
Combined, I don't think they will allow the Devils to have their cake and eat it too. Keeping Parise and the RFAs alone is going to be quite expensive with respect to the cap. The current upper limit is not enough to do just that even if Parise feels incredibly generous and signs for the minimum qualifying offer. Throw in the reality that the Devils need a backup goaltender, which will cost at least $525,000 to the cap, and that's $8,654,000 already accounted for without even thinking about Andy Greene other UFAs. That's why I spent so much time wondering whether the Devils can replace Greene from within. Keeping him even at a "bargain" salary simply may not possible to fit under the cap without more drastic measures.
While the Devils do have some maneuverability with how they handle their RFAs, there are only a few possibilities - outside of just letting the RFAs walk - to clear up significant cap space. The first is that we have to hope the cap ceiling will increase - just to keep Parise and other RFAs. That may be necessary anyway. The second is that the Devils can buyout a contract or two when the buyout period begins on June 15. The third is to trade away a "bad" contract, which can be done this offseason as well. Lou may not be worried about the cap, but I'm honestly a little concerned about all of this. Yes, things will get better cap-wise after next season as Brian Rolston, Colin White, Salvador, and Martin Brodeur all come off the books. But 2011-12 comes first and I don't want to see the Devils any more hamstrung than they are in their current situation.
We can discuss the merits of the latter two options on a future date. In the meantime, what do you make of the Devils cap situation knowing that qualifying the restricted free agents plus the big money Parise may/will get will eat up so much space for next season already? Please leave your thoughts and what would you do knowing all of this in the comments. Thanks for reading.
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So basically your saying we’re screwed as far as improving the team significantly this offseason. The 2 major assets we have that could be reallocated are ZP and this #4 overall pick that could clear cap space for significant improvement for this years defense and team.
Last offseason I thought there was no way we were still in the Kovy running when LL traded for Arnott. At that time I wasn’t too upset as I thought Jason still had a lot to offer and Kovy was an item not typical for the Devils montra. I’ve never heard of building a team from the LW out. Its usually built from the goalie out or its more important to be strong down the middle like the Pens and Flyers with their great centers.
Kovy isn’t going anywhere for better or worse so in going forward to reconstruct this team for next year I would say LL needs to reallocate ZP, the #4 pick or as a diehard fan continue to blissfully drink the Koolaid but maybe stay away from the black kind thats fizzing and smoldering.
Lous been pretty bold in the past as hes traded away future HOF’s and shipped out 2 of my favorite DEVS in Kirk Muller and Pat Verbeek so I wouldn’t be shocked if ZP got moved or if he feels he could move back in draft or out and still get equal value.
Lou’s been slipping a little in my opinion so maybe he wants to go for it and shake things up instead of patiently stirring up more servings until 2013. I thought thats what the panic move of accquiring Kovy to sit on top of the last cornerstone of Marty was all about anyway.
While these are considering contract amounts, the fact is that not all of these players will be on the devils professional roster simply because there is not enough room for it all. Good possibility that they are signed and then go through camp. If injuries occur as they did last year with Fraser and Salvador, then the problem tends to work itself out. If not, guys like Fraser could get put on waivers to free up that space and then get sent to Albany.
We simply have way too many D-men as it stands. White, Volchenkov, Salmela, Taormina, Corrente, Tallinder, Salvador, Fraser, possibly Urbom, and then Greene or someone to replace him if not resigned makes at least 10 d-men so I’d say 2 of these will either be waived, sent down, traded, or not resigned.
Lemaire and Lou indicated that we needed to improve the D so I doubt we sit back and go with the same bunch. I think Fraser is waived, Tao gets a 2way deal and starts in Albany, Greene gets resigned at 1.5-2 tops. Now, with the log jam up front as well, I could see Lou not signing any UFA to improve the D other than Greene but rather, possibly packaging up a few young guys to a older veteran guy who has a reasonable cap hit.
Thus, maybe something like Zubrus, Corrente/Tao, and a 4th rd pick for a vet Dman making in the 2-2.5 mil range. It trims 2 contracts for 1 and saves about 2 mil on the cap hit. Not a huge splash but could improve the team, makes room for younger forwards coming in and saves some cap space.
For the reasons already indicated, whomever we draft this year, because of the cap hit, WILL NOT be on the 2011 roster.
You’re no doubt counting Salvador in this, something which I don’t know that I would do – he may be there, he may not be there. And I said I don’t worry about Lou’s cap past 2012 – this year, I do worry about it.
Some of these guys should be non-tendered, so I’m not worried about that.
Yeah, I did include Salvador and his $2.9 million. I should have been clear that I did assume he’ll count by way of being active. Sad to say, I do know that’s not a guarantee short of a new update on his health.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
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by John Fischer on May 13, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Say what you will about the “distraction” that having a short roster may or may not have caused early in the season, but I don’t think the Devils should count on having Salvador available. If he is healthy and the team faces a cap crunch they can do it all over again with a 20-man roster to make it work or they can waive him and assign him to Albany.
Were I Lou Lamorello, I’d certainly make my plans for 2011-2012 under the assumption that Bryce Salvador won’t be a serious factor, at least in terms of building the team’s defense corps and blueline depth in general. At the same time, Salvador has to be accounted for when it comes to the team budget (I doubt Vanderbeek has unlimited funds for payroll, injuries or minors or whatnot) and how cap dollars are handed out this summer. The last thing this franchise needs is another potential cap fiasco in the making, similar to training camp and the start of last season.
Plan for the worst, and hope for the best. If you put him into the “budget” for cap dollars over the summer, and he’s hurt…. you can always leave the money as set aside for a future trade. If this team bounces back the way we hope it does, we’ll probably want to make a deadline acquisition or two. Not being pressed tight against the cap will certainly help in that respect.
It’s fun going to other teams on this website and see how many people want Zach. On the Forecheck is really wanting to pick him up badly. They even would trade Weber for him who the love.
At least they are reasonable in their thoughts. I can’t say the same about other groups.
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by Tom Stivali on May 13, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed- I talked with Chris and Marc from OtF about this (separate conversations) and both were very reasonable with their offers.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on May 13, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Quisp’s already started with his “Kings are going to trade for Parise” articles. Those are going to be brutal.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on May 13, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you tricked me to going back to that site with your Twitter link, and for that I hate you, but I had to read it once I was there. Can’t help but feel they’re overvaluing Jack Johnson.
Overvaluing players and a nebulous grasp of the Devils’ cap situation seems to be the norm for these sorts of articles across SBN.
"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."
Jack Johnson is a very weird spelling for Drew Doughty.
Anyway, yeah, the cap situation is a Thing Of Concern for NJ. The RFA situation is exact proof of that. Over the next few days, I’ll try to provide a reasonable outlook on what can be done. While Lou will have to make a tough decision or two (or more), it’s not going to mean that Parise is on the block.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
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by John Fischer on May 13, 2011 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I was trying to be nice.
The proposed offer is Johnson and Dustin Brown for Parise. It made me laugh.
Most of these deals people are coming up with seem to not only be one-sided, but built by following a thought process that goes something like:
- Our team has an excess of X
- The Devils kind of need an upgrade at X
- If I package 2 or 3 of the least valuable Xs, it’s a deal Lou can’t refuse because it addresses their team needs
I will say, I don’t know much about Brown and he seems like someone the Devils could use—RH shot, RW, 20-30g scorer, relatively young (26), team Captain, reasonable cap hit and term, Corsi et al seem promising—but it’d take more than him and Johnson to equal a Parise.
"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."
are you serious
Sign me up for that trade right TFN! They’ll be arresting LL for grand larceny my Punted pooch!
Take a gander at Jack Johnson’s numbers and then his contract and then see if you’re as willing.
"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."
I’m not even sure I understand a third of this, but Johnson + Brown would be a bad, bad, bad trade. The money doesn’t work as Johnson + Brown will equal just over $7.5 million in additional cap space the Devils can’t really afford right now (see this entire post). The Devils would be on the hook for Brown through 2013-14 and will have Johnson through 2017-18; so they would be obtaining two guys on long term deals. That won’t help the Devils down the line.
More importantly, the return isn’t worth it. A healthy Parise is a puck possessing, shot creating, dynamic skating, point machine. One of the best forwards in the league. Brown’s good, Jack Johnson is horrible, and combined they won’t make up for what Parise brings to the table.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 13, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry i was leaving work @ the x but 1st I don’t think LL and brass are overly concerned about the cap as “we” the fans are as their blatant disregard for it last year demonstrated. My feeling was LL is now in full chase mode for the silver chalice and I think his disdain for the high pick and the unfortunate position it means the Devs are in is genuine.
I’m not going to debate anyone over Jack Johnson’s worth but Brown impresses me with with combo of grit and skill. The point of Parise’s style would fit the Western Conference style of play utilizing more open ice and speed while Brown would fit nicely in those tightly contested divisional games.
In the game of asset allocation LL will do it ‘til its right and in my opinion won’t be patient for any 2 , 3 year plan. I’ve always believed his mindset was to go for it and even though there will be a lot of teenage girls tears in Northern Jersey, including my daughter’s, ZP is only an asset at the end of the day, just like the #4 overall pik. Since watching this team since the beginning, when LL started to scramble things up last summer and piss the league off I know the chase has begun in earnest and since there’s no framework left to retool He’ll start chasing down the peices of a new framework. I watched 2 Devs who I thought would be lifetime players for us in Verbeek and Muller get traded so I would be a little surprised if LL doesn’t continue chasing this summer however he can.
I think his disdain for the high pick and the unfortunate position it means the Devs are in is genuine.
His disdain isn’t for the high pick itself, but for the fact that the team didn’t make the playoffs. I’m pretty sure he’s quite happy to have pick #4 instead of #14. He’s not going to sit there and smile like a blithering idiot about winning the lottery, but he’d still view the 4th pick as a silver lining to a dark season.
since there’s no framework left to retool
I disagree. The team has drafted well in the past 3 yrs and is going to start reaping the benefits of that shortly. There will be some more growing pains this season but with Tedenby and Josefson maturing into top-six forwards, the infusion of young, big, and mobile talent on the blueline, and cap relief coming next summer, the future looks good. This team has been in transition for years and we’re already halfway through it.
is he going to write 25 of them? he’ll probably keep writing them after parise’s signed a new contract.
jack johnson is so beyond horrendous – maybe if the kings included schenn and voynov, maybe then i would think about taking on the awful, awful, awful jack johnson contract.
It really is terrible. It’s like Deano threw an extra $2MM on there to make up for the fact that he ripped him to shreds in the press a year before.
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On the one hand I see Jack Johnson’s awful +/- every year he’s been in the league, and yeah, it’s terrible. On the other hand, LA coaches keep sending him out there. He had more ES TOI/gm than everyone except Drew Doughty – more than decent veterans like WIllie Mitchell and Rob Scuderi. He scores a lot.
The guy has to improve his defensive play, there’s no doubt about that. But he’s still only 24 yrs old and while there are a lot of 24-year-olds who are better defensively than him, he still has a lot of room to grow. I think the contract reflects an expectation that the best is yet to come. At worst, Jack Johnson will turn into an offensive and PP specialist, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable gamble to expect him to become better defensively.
would anyone want one of the goalies — I would take Bernier because he would be a RFA after 2012-2013 season but by that time the bad contracts will be gone
this organization needs a young goalie — now the kid the devils signed from college could be something down the line
by Team First Devils on May 13, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sympathetic to the notion that he can improve. But the indications so far aren’t good.
In his last three seasons at 5-on-5 play per Behind the Net, he has been given easier competition to play against, more offensive zone starts, and he’s still negative in on-ice Corsi.
If you want an example of how Johnson does against tough competition, just look at the recent Sharks-Kings playoff series. Derek Zona was tracking scoring chances for that series and Johnson & Scuderi got murdalized by Clowe-Couture-Heatley. And in this follow up post, Derek pointed out more specifically how badly Johnson did with some video examples. Scuderi was far from the problem on that pairing. Yes, this is a small sample of games, but it highlights where Johnson is right now when it comes to the toughs – and it wasn’t pretty.
Speaking of not pretty, give a quick peek at his on-ice/off-ice numbers at Behind the Net. They show that while the Kings’ GF/60 and SF/60 rose when he was on the ice last season; so did their GA/60 and SA/60. And by significant amounts. I know he may be coming on the ice after Doughty’s done, but to me, that just makes Doughty all the more impressive and Johnson the more unimpressive. Moreover, notice that the increase in shots and goals against per 60 when Johnson came on the ice occurred in each of the last three seasons at 5-on-5 play.
Johnson may become a viable defender in his own end some day. I mean, if Mike Mottau can be molded into a NHL defender late in his career, then I don’t want to say it’s impossible. After all, Johnson is only 24. But he’s already got 280+ games under his belt and still has a long, long, long way to go to be a capable defender. Sure his offense is fine, but what’s the point if he’s got to be protected to avoid hurting the team or if the coach has to pray he doesn’t turn into a black hole for a few shifts? Throw in his big, big, big contract with a stupidly precise cap hit and there’s a whole lot not to like about Jack Johnson. I don’t think NJ should have anything to do with him, let him haunt the Kings through 2017-18.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on May 13, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I love all these people thinking they can get Parise for spare parts. I would only trade Parise 1:1 for another superstar.
- – -
I really like the Parise-Weber swap. I think it’s a very sensible proposal for both teams. It draws from each teams’ relative strength and addresses each teams’ relative weaknesses.
We are stacked at LW, but need a #1 D. Nashville is stacked on D, but needs high-end scoring.
Both players are either a captain (Shea) or captain material (Zach).
Weber would stabilize our D, add offense from the back end, and make us more physical.
Parise Gives Nashville the scoring threat they need, and his hard-working attitude would fit right in on the Predators.
That said, I’d also be thrilled to see Zach back.
1995 - 2000 - 2003
With this logic, a Parise/Weber swap makes a fair amount of sense from a hockey standpoint. Trades aren’t always about the on-the-ice product, however.
What sort of reaction would come from Devils’ fans if this were made, particularly the casual ones ownership is trying to court to draw into the fold and spend money on this team? Would trading arguably the team’s most popular player go over well with them?
Would the “experts” in the “media” start dumping on the team? Would we be subjected to endless columns about how we traded Parise for Kovalchuk?
My first choice is to get Zach back and under contract for several years…. even if it means sacrificing elsewhere, be it Andy Greene, David Clarkson, or someone not quite as important to the team and not part of the team for so long that it would feel like a betrayal to me to purge them simply for cap space (this refers mostly to Elias and White). If it comes to offer sheets or trading Parise’s rights, however, we could do worse than Weber.
The “media experts” can dump the team all they want. Nothing has stopped them from doing that before.
We wouldn’t make this trade if Kovalchuck was not around, of course. So it could be viewed that signing Kovy put us in the position to land Weber, the Norris-level D we currently lack.
I think there would be significant fan backlash if Parise was traded for a hodgepodge combination of lesser commodities, be it players and/or picks. That would rightfully be viewed as a step back. If we get another bonafide superstar back, especially one at a position of relative weakness, that’s something to be excited about. Weber is a Norris candidate this year (and a favorite, I think). That would be a nice reassuring factoid for fans who were unfamiliar with his game.
I think Weber is a pretty easy sell, promotion-wise. His assets aren’t subtle like, say, Paul Martin’s. He’s a big, hulking team captain with a howitzer slapshot. Fans love players like that.
1995 - 2000 - 2003
I agree with you: the “media experts” can take a long walk off a short pier. At the same time, I’d prefer not to go through the process in the first place, as it leads to all sorts of negative perception across the League and to the casual sports fan in this area who is just as likely to pick the Devils as he is say…. the Rutgers Scarlet Knights.
I agree with you: bringing back Shea Weber for Zach Parise would be something of a coup. But will the casual fan agree with that sentiment?
For all of Weber’s assets, I imagine that most hockey fans around here have no clue who he is, what he can do, and he’d be able to have dinner in any restaurant without being disturbed by anything other than a hockeyphile. On the other hand, most casual fans know who Parise is, particularly after the 2010 Olympiad. The “casual Devils fan” loves Parise to death, and the “casual Devils female fan” may fantasize about him. Would they be happy with any Parise trade, even if you brought back a boatload of talent?
The dedicated Devils fan and ILWT reader isn’t the guy you have to sell on this deal and on the team in general. We’ll support them in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, ‘til death do we part. We’ll talk incessantly about the team, plonk down our cash for tickets, watch them on TV, et cetera. I imagine Vanderbeek wants some of the casual fans, as well, because that’s where the money is (especially the “whales” who buy the luxury boxes and the like). He might also want the casual hockey fan in the area who hasn’t picked a team. They’re the ones who could very well change their minds with this sort of trade, because they won’t understand it or they’ll listen to the “pundits”.
Good hockey trades don’t always make for great public relations.
All very legitimate points. Zach is among the most marketable players in the league, and that is an area our team could certainly use help in.
Eggs sometimes need to be broken to make an omelet, though. Our 2003 championship roster was partly assembled by trading two members of the super-popular A-line. I’m sure 98% of Devils fans liked Petr Sykora better than Jeff Freisen, but hey, it worked.
Our struggles last year stripped me of a lot of sentimentality. I think it’s Lou’s job to consider all options when it comes to improving the team. Your points are definitely an important part of any decision, though.
1995 - 2000 - 2003
Look, I agree that losing Parise would be a public relations disaster this year. Heck, it would be a public relations disaster FOR ME. I will be beyond pissed if we lose Parise because of Kovalchuk.
However — and this is a big however — Shea Weber is awesome, and you know what immediately ends a public relations disaster? I Cup run/win. The unfortunate fact is, however, that a Cup run is very, very unlikely this season. If it doesn’t materialize, then we have lost Parise and picked up another, unknown superstar, and pissed off a lot of people in the process.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I am a newly anointed Devils fan as of last year, and it happened to be BECAUSE of Zach Parise and his team USA escapades that turned me on to hockey and the Devils. I actually believe it saved my life because if I got into hockey I probably would’ve been a Flyers fan. Suffice it to say that would’ve been a disaster. So I am that “casual” audience that you speak of that would be devastated if Parise was traded. However, I am a sports fan, and I understand that sometimes you need to lose a big piece to gain the pieces you need. If Shea Weber helps us out, so be it.
However, you have to look at the things Zach brings to the team as a leader. Is it realistic to expect Weber to come in and be the leader that ZP was last year and the beginning of this year? We’d be losing, in my opinion (biased), the heart and soul of this team. I remember the excitement that went into the one game that ZP played at the end of the year, even though we lost to Montreal. I haven’t been in the locker room, but I feel as though the fans wouldn’t be the only people to miss Parise next year and in the future.
by ProfessorParise on May 17, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
When I’m looking for sage advice on our man ZP I’m going straight to Professor Parise… But whats this Shea Weber talk Professor?! Are you turning on us??
Nice first post welcome aboard big daww
I’d never turn on ZP. Let’s trade Kovalchuk…haha
by ProfessorParise on May 20, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
At this point I don’t like the idea of trading out of the #4 pick. We need a good young offensive player in our system. One of our major problems last year was that we could not score. (I won’t even mention the powerplay.) I would prefer to let some of the RFA defensemen go (Corrente/Taorimina, Salmela) and have a serious talk about retirement with Salvador. If Salvador is committed to coming back I would think about letting Fraser go also.
by 31setab on May 13, 2011 11:45 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Thanks for putting up what a Q.O. was, as I hadn’t known before.
There is also the buy out period. That’s was what happened to Pandolfo. We could get some cap relief from a buy out. (Salvadore?) The period for buy outs is late June (I think from end of SC finals to July 1). But there is a way to extend the window of oppurtunity to buy out players as late as training camp if you have two RFA’s go to arbitration.
Pretty complicated stuff. But if Parise goes to arbitration it’s a safe bet Lou forces one of the other RFA’s into arbitration as well to keep this option open.
There is no way Parise goes to arbitration. I’m sorry, but if you’re Lou, you know not to let a Parise-caliber player go to arbitration. It’s just a bad idea.
What you said about the buyout period being extended if you have two RFAs go to arbitration is really interesting. I didn’t know that. Not that I don’t trust you, but do you know where it says that in the CBA? I really want to read it.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Lou has taken Parise-caliber players to arbitration before. His name was Scott Niedermayer. And it was a terrible idea.
I just don’t think it’s a terrible idea that he would use again right now.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Salmela
Just thumbed through the CBS and he might be a UFA (group 5) because of his time in the Finnish League/Junior System. I am going to see if Grossman will respond to me on Twitter to see if I can get an authority on the subject.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
With the amount of Defenseman in this organization, they are all about the same in terms of ability. I can see the Devils orgainzation letting a few of them go and the next group coming up have higher ability but are a few years away.
Fraser has been past by Fayne – both have good size but Fayne better skater and his shot gets to the net more — see ya Fraser
Salmela – I really liked him in his first camp with the devils – I liked him better then Johnny O – but since his return from Atlanta he has not played well enough over all periods of time. Another guy that could be easy to replace maybe it opens up a spot for Urbom to get more time in the NHL level.
Corrente/Taormina — Corrente will never be the top defensemen we got in the 1st round, but could be a usefull 7th D-man (until the younger group reach the nhl) Taormina I like him in the short time he played and he played well in the AHL the year before plus I really hope Eckford comes back but knowing the devils unlikely.
by Team First Devils on May 13, 2011 4:11 PM EDT reply actions
Move them
I think we should certainly move some of our RFA defenseman along. Capgeek shows 11 on the roster from this past season. We can assume safely that Jay Leach will not be on the NHL Salary Cap roster next season. But the 10 of Volchenkov, Tallinder, White, Salvador, Corrente, Greene, Salmela, Fayne, Taormina and Fraser do not all need to be retained/on the NHL roster next season.
Of course, getting something back for any of these players would be best, but allowing a pair of them to walk is what I think we should do. Goodbye Mark Fraser, and yes, Andy Greene.
The talk of redundancy springs up again. I think we can expect a combination of Taormina/Fayne/Salmela to do the job Andy Greene will do next season. Let Andy go, allocate what would be his raise ($1.25M?) in retaining a backup goaltender (Hedberg anyone?) and allow room for Urbom to jump in if he can.
Finally, I would honestly move Salvador to the Minors if he is ready to play next season. That is a VERY valuable $2.9M there, money that if the Devils had it, would be the discussion here and not ‘how do we keep our RFA’s.’
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
17 signed + 6 RFAs + 1 Goaltender means one of the 6 RFAs OR someone else on the active roster CAN’T be on the roster next season, assuming no other changes, which is very unlikely. You said there was $1,893,000 left for a goaltender. Actually there’s at least $550,000 more than that if Fraser is the odd RFA out. More if it’s any other, like Corrente for example, who I would think would be first on the list to not qualify. So, in actuality, take Corrente’s salary ($660,000), use it for a minimum salary backup (or Frazee, who I’ll use as an example) and there’s around $2M available to throw at Parise. That would result in a roster which fits under a $62.2M cap that looks like this (giving slightly less than the whole $2M to Zach):
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.700m) / Travis Zajac ($3.887m) / Ilya Kovalchuk ($6.666m)
Brian Rolston ($5.062m) / Patrik Elias ($6.000m) / Dainius Zubrus ($3.400m)
Mattias Tedenby ($0.875m) / Jacob Josefson ($0.900m) / Vladimir Zharkov ($0.671m)
Nick Palmieri ($0.801m) / Dave Steckel ($1.100m) / David Clarkson ($2.666m)
/ / Rod Pelley ($0.550m)
DEFENSEMEN
Anton Volchenkov ($4.250m) / Henrik Tallinder ($3.375m)
Colin White ($3.000m) / Bryce Salvador ($2.900m)
Mark Fayne ($0.542m) / Anssi Salmela ($0.687m)
Matthew Taormina ($0.561m) / Mark Fraser ($0.550m)
GOALTENDERS
Martin Brodeur ($5.200m) / Jeff Frazee ($0.605m)
BUYOUTS: Jay Pandolfo ($0.833m) / Andrew Peters ($0.166m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,952,001; BONUSES: $240,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $247,999
I could live with that. Plus, I personally believe Salvador won’t return, so there may actually be almost $3.15M available for a different 23rd player (say, $1.75M for Mr. Greene and there’s just a shade under $1.4M wiggle room.)
Like Lou said last year – “Don’t worry about my cap.” There’s room for Zach without demolishing the rest of the team. None of the other RFAs did anything to warrant anything more than the required 10%.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
It says “these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion”, but the cap space is calculated with the bonus cushion. According to the NYPost article, though, the bonus cushion will not be available this season because it is the last year of the current CBA (therefore you couldn’t apply the bonus money to next year’s cap). So it seems there is a little less space than what you wrote.
I look at the situation and unless a trade to move out salary is made, we’ll be extremely tight against the cap unless one of the big-money vets is injured or Salvador is sent down to the minors. By your calculations, we’re talking $48,000 tight. In addition to the question of whether Zach agrees to a $6.7M cap hit, there are the issues of whether Frazee is capable of being the NHL backup and whether Urbom and his nearly $900K cap hit will deserve to make the team over Salmela, Fraser, and Corrente.
First, good stuff FrankG929.
Now, I agree with dr(d)evil. I have argued that part of our suckitude last season was the result of not being able to replace long-term injuries. A team can very rarely succeed (read: Cup) without the ability to replace excellent players if they get injured, and we saw that last season. There must be some maneuverability when all is said and done and you have your contracts in place.
I also don’t think that Frazee has what it takes (as I argued at length in John’s recent post about how we will flll the backup position), nor do I expect Urbom to rise to the occasion. I hate to be a pessimist — although I consider myself pragmatic, not pessimistic — but things do not look good for our cap this year right now, and they won’t unless we make some serious moves to alleviate the problems. If we don’t, the cap problems will look almost exactly like last season, and that…well, it didn’t go very well.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
All the same, this is very good work and you are right that not everyone’s going to be on the roster at the same time. That’ll create a little breathing room, but as you noted – it’s going to be tight and we’re all going to have to hope, pray, and wish for no minor injuries.
As far as Salvador’s concerned, I think that warrants a separate post.
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by John Fischer on May 13, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Going back to the Parise for Shea Weber possible swap, I just can’t see it happening. Credits to Acasser who made very good points. Also, this year during the draft, we have a chance to select a dominant d-man. Now look, Shea Weber is amazing, established as arguably the league’s best D-man right now. But, if we can get a good d-man in the draft right now who is even half of what Weber is, I would be happy, especially since it won’t cost us Parise. To win a Stanley Cup, you need fire power, and lot’s of it. Parise, Tedenby, Zajac, Josefsson, Kovalchuk is an incredible core I just can’t part with any even if it means getting a Norris Trophy contender.
by Marty's Better #30 on May 14, 2011 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
And how are you so sure Preds would accept that deal/offer it? Parise’s coming off a serious injury, and I doubt Preds would make that deal RIGHT NOW. And in recent memory, you usually don’t see a one for one deal involving to bonifide superstars
by Marty's Better #30 on May 14, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
this year during the draft, we have a chance to select a dominant d-man.
We have a chance. We could select something other than a d-man. We could select a d-man who flames out. We could select a d-man who turns into a lunchpail kind of guy like Colin White or Ken Daneyko. There are no sure things in the draft…. whereas Shea Weber would be closer to a sure thing. If he’s “arguably the best d-man in the league” as you posit, that sounds a lot closer to a sure thing than a rookie who may never pan out.
To win a Stanley Cup, you need fire power, and lot’s of it
The 2002-2003 Devils are on Line 2 for ya. Some Fun Facts™ about their “firepower”, if you will:
- Patrick Elias led the team in scoring with 57 points, 28 goals and 29 assists.
- Jamie Langenbrunner and Jeff Friesen were the only other Devils to crack the 20 goal mark.
- The Devils were eighth in the East (and 14th overall) in goals scored with 216. Before this past season, the fewest number of goals they had tallied in a full (80+ game) season was 206. On the other hand, they did tie Philadelphia for the Jennings Trophy.
On the other hand, Shea Weber would represent firepower not seen on a Devils’ blue line in a long, long time. Fun Facts™ about Weber’s 2010-2011 numbers and how it would compare to Devils’ blue-liners:
- Last season, Weber had 16 goals and 32 assists, for 48 points.
- Weber’s 16 goals and 48 points would have been third on the Devils in each category. His 32 assists would have only trailed Patrick Elias.
- Weber’s 32 assists alone would have won the Devils’ defense “scoring title” in a rout. Andy Greene led the Devils with 23 points from the back end.
- The last Devils’ defenseman to put up more than 48 points in a season was Brian Rafalski (55 in 2006-2007).
- The last Devils’ defenseman to score 16+ goals in a season was Scott Stevens, in his scintillating 1993-1994 season (18 goals, plus a team-record 60 assists).
Parise, Tedenby, Zajac, Josefsson, Kovalchuk is an incredible core
It’s a nice core, but it doesn’t stack up to the Top 5 on a number of other teams. The core may also be a work in progress, or even an illusion. Zajac may or may not be a number-one center. Tedenby and Josefsson may be great players, and they may turn out to be flashes in the pan. We just don’t know, yet.
Parise is an incredible player, but he’s also at a position where the Devils have the greatest surplus at present. Heck, Zach Parise might not even be the best left wing on the Devils at this point. On the other hand, Shea Weber would address an immediate need and become the unquestioned leader on the blue line.
I’m not saying you make the trade. Still, if the offer came up, it’s something you have to think about.
In 44% of the Devil’s games this year they scored 0 or 1 goal. Out of those games they won 2. You do not win many games with that kind of offensive production. I think this year the focus needs to be offense not defense.
by 31setab on May 14, 2011 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Step one when it comes to offense is taking the puck away from the other team in your zone and moving it up the ice. A team can’t score if they are pinned back in their own end. A good defense gives the offense the opportunity to be on the attack.
1995 - 2000 - 2003
Obviously in order to score you have to have the puck. However shots on goal were plentiful this year. We need better shooters.
by 31setab on May 14, 2011 11:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We need better shooters.
John did a whole series of articles during the season about how the Devils were shooting at historically low percentages, and how virtually every Devil was shooting at a mark considerably below his career averages and often his career worsts. Simple regression back towards league average and player average will make up for an awful lot.
But…but…Adam Mair had like, a career high for the first few months!
It was because he scored one goal early…hahaha. Oh Adam!
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
In regards to the draft, the odds we pick a forward are higher than a Dman. Larsson could fall to us and Hamilton is a candidate to crack the top 5 but more likely we’d be picking btwn some combo of Couturier, Landeskog, Huberdeau, or Strome.
Where Weber is concerned, he is a fantastic player. He’s everything you want in a Dman. But I think this one-for-one trade opens a hole even as it fills another for both teams.
It might look like the Devils have a surplus at LW, with Parise, Kovalchuk, Rolston all penciled into patrol the left side and with Elias, Tedenby, and Zubrus all capable of playing that side. But as acasser points out, the core of scoring forwards isn’t that impressive – yet. Parise and Kovalchuk are the centerpieces of the offense. Zajac is a nice complementary player and Josefson may turn out very much like him. Tedenby could be an offensive dynamo in a few years, but he might also not become a guy who can produce consistently. The supporting cast of Elias, Rolston, and Zubrus is aging and will not be with the team much longer.
You trade Parise for Weber and yes, suddenly your defense looks great but at the expense of crippling the offense. You’re putting all your eggs in the Kovy basket and hoping that the other guys can provide enough secondary scoring. Without a second superstar on offense, offensive production will be inconsistent. And unless the Devils use the 4th pick to draft a forward, there are NO scoring forwards in the pipeline, so you’re really counting on some young kids to develop very quickly.
From Nashville’s point of view, they’re relying on Ryan Suter to be the man on an otherwise very young blueline, while still lacking a lot of offensive firepower even with the addition of Parise. Players like Erat, Kostitsyn, and Legwand have been inconsistent throughout their careers – I think Nashville will still have trouble getting consistent scoring.
So, I’m not sure swapping the most popular player on each team is going to definitely help both teams, but may very well hurt the fanbase.
I think we just have to wait til next year or later to acquire the stud Dman we’re all looking for. Probably not through free agency, but once we get the cap space and acquire assets from cap-strapped teams, we can trade for a guy we want. Plus we’ve got Merrill and others in a pipeline full of Dmen.
I couldn't agree more
The fact is that our scoring has been absolutely awful. Can anyone imagine what it would be like without Parise? Ahhhhh! That’s what it would be like.
Saying there’s a “surplus on left wing” misses the point. Regardless of the position of a given player, there’s a dearth of offensive forwards overall. Unless you’re replacing Parise with another offensive superstar who plays right wing, you’re doing the team a disservice. Add the fact that Rolston will soon be gone and Elias is likely closing in on the end of his career, and ridding ourselves of Parise will truly come back to haunt us.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
First, 2002-2003 was pre-lockout. We’ve in a new NHL, where you need goals. That’s just how it is. Chicago a high scoring team, Penguins a high scoring team, Detroit a high scoring team- all past Cup champions. We can’t lean on Broduer as much as we used to as realistically he won’t be able to steal as many games as he used to.
I agree that a draft choice might not pan out. But what if we get a Dougie Hamiliton, Ryan Murphy, or Adam Larsson who in my mind, are going to be solid NHLers. They may not be of that class, but I feel they will from watching them on a few occasions.
You argue that Travis Zajac may not be a number one center. Well, what is a number one center? Is it someone who puts up 85-90 points who maybe a liability on defense, or someone who will get you 60-65 points, and is a great 2way foward? If it’s the former, then you say John Toews isn’t a number one center. Blackhawk fans can argue that one. He’s probably the sole reason they got into the playoffs, he was unbelievable. Granted he did register 76 points this year, but years past he was putting up Zajac type numbers.
I know we need a Shea Weber type player, but you have to ponder realistically, if that offer would ever come our way or is Lou would even offer it.
Sorry if I came across with an attitude in this comment, ahah.
by Marty's Better #30 on May 14, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And if you say we’ve been in the playoffs even as a low scoring club the past couple years…did we ever win the Cup those years?
by Marty's Better #30 on May 14, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, what is a number one center? Is it someone who puts up 85-90 points who maybe a liability on defense, or someone who will get you 60-65 points, and is a great 2way foward?
Are you saying that there are no centers who do both? I don’t really feel like giving you the list of those who do. And yes, I would say that even a 60-65 point two way center is a number one, but there are even those who put up 85-90 and play great defense as well.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sorry
an 85-90 center and two way forward is a lot, but not the second example you gave. And the second is still a number one.
Oh look at that, FrankG just posted below what I was about to say as I was writing this. Well, thanks Frank.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, what is a number one center? Is it someone who puts up 85-90 points who maybe a liability on defense, or someone who will get you 60-65 points, and is a great 2way foward?
Actually, 85-90 would be a number 1 or 2 center IN THE LEAGUE, considering only 2 centers scored over 80 points this season. In the past 3 seasons, 20, 25, and 22 centers scored 60 or more points. So, yes, a 60-65 point guy, regardless of being 2-way or not would qualify as a #1 center on around 2/3 of the teams in the league. And of the 22 this past season, 3 teams had 2 on the list (VAN, CAR, PHI). You’ve got to go all the way down to 55th place and 40 points before every team’s top scoring center is found. So yeah, 60 points definitely qualifies you as a #1 center in today’s NHL.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
We’ve in a new NHL, where you need goals.
Quite true. But you need goals from everywhere, and not just from a handful of players. Which do you think is easier to find in this League, a forward who can score 30 goals or an alpha dog defenseman who can chip in 15 and play in all situations? If you read some of the Fun Facts™ I researched above, the Devils haven’t had an offensive defenseman of that caliber in a while, and an overall alpha dog D-man with that kind of goal scoring ability in an incredibly long time.
If you’re counting on Parise for 35-40 goals, but you trade him for a defenseman who gives you 15-20 (plus all the other stuff you want out of your top guy), the forward who takes Parise’s lineup spot only has to give you 20 goals or so to come out ahead when you consider you’ve already upgraded the back end by that deal.
Well, what is a number one center? Is it someone who puts up 85-90 points who maybe a liability on defense, or someone who will get you 60-65 points, and is a great 2way foward?
Is Travis Zajac even that “great two-way forward who will get you 60-65 points”, or is he only that guy when he’s playing with Zach Parise? When I used to play fantasy hockey, one of the things I learned is that some players were great players in their own right, and some players were great players when playing alongside those “kingmakers”. Based on last season, you could make a compelling argument that Travis Zajac is a number one center based on ZP’s reflected glory.
I know we need a Shea Weber type player, but you have to ponder realistically, if that offer would ever come our way or is Lou would even offer it.
Alpha dog, Number One Defensemen do not show up very often. The last two I can recall switching teams by way of free agency was immediately following the settlement of the lockout (Niedermayer from NJ to Anaheim, Pronger from StL to Edmonton), so it’s probably safe to say that this avenue won’t materialize to upgrade the blue line — and if it does, every team in the League is liable to put up maximum dollars to try and lure the guy. Drafting and developing the guy is also an uncertain path. So that leaves making a trade for the guy, which will also mean parting with substantial assets.
I believe Lou Lamorello is a very good GM. To that end, I believe he is constantly chatting with other GMs (well, maybe not Glen Sather and the guy running Philly whose name escapes me at the moment) and bouncing ideas off them. Not just potential trades, but getting an idea of who might be on the market, what values teams are placing on various players, what other teams think of the Devils’ players and prospects, etc. If there was a possibility of obtaining Shea Weber, I imagine Lou Lamorello would explore it and consider if the prize was worth the cost and effort.
And if you say we’ve been in the playoffs even as a low scoring club the past couple years…did we ever win the Cup those years?
Maybe you haven’t noticed, but there are a lot of teams that haven’t won a Cup in a while. There are thirty teams in the current NHL, and only one of them can win each season. There are high-scoring, highly-successful teams that haven’t had a whole lot of luck at this thing. Examples:
- The Washington Capitals have never won a Stanley Cup. Heck, they’ve never won a game in the Finals.
- The Toronto Maple Leafs last won a Stanley Cup when there were six teams in the League.
- The Philadelphia Flyers last won a Stanley Cup when I was in diapers and being fed from a bottle for lack of my ability to hold it and drink myself.
- The Boston Bruins have not been to a Stanley Cup Finals since 1990, and haven’t won since 1972.
Scoring lots of goals =/= Winning championships.
Heck, Zach Parise might not even be the best left wing on the Devils at this point.
Wait, what? Please explain. I don’t want to write a response answering what I assume are your reasons for saying that. I would rather hear your reasons first before responding.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, there’s this guy who’s scored more goals since he came into the league than anyone else, LW or not? Maybe you heard of him; ill you something or other…
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
This guy who scored more goals but isn’t nearly the defensive player Parise is? I would rather have Parise than Kovalchuk. Maybe that’s not a popular sentiment (which is news to me), but I am unequivocally in that camp. Slightly lesser offensive output + hugely greater defensive output = better, in my opinion.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He did say “might.” At least it’s debatable whether all scoring-less defense and good scoring-good defense makes you the best. I doubt he was talking about Rolston being better (although you could also argue for Elias as well, based on his history with the team).
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Explanation
You could make a compelling argument that Ilya Kovalchuk is the Devils’ best left wing at this point, and that’s even if Zach Parise were completely healthy (which we won’t know until training camp).
Parise and Kovalchuk have different strengths and skill sets. There isn’t a quantifiable way to compare Parise’s defensive abilities and efforts with Kovalchuk’s additional offense and come out with a definite winner. A lot of “who’s better” comes down to opinion.
How much is defense worth? How much is it worth compared to extra offense? I know Lou Lamorello put together an entire arbitration case on the topic two decades ago, when it came time for the League-appointed official to decide what compensation Brendan Shanahan was worth in free agency…. but it isn’t something I’d care to try and put together a thesis on.
….
No, I won’t give an answer to which I think is better. I’m just saying you can put together a legit case for either guy, depending on your own biases.
Understood, and a good and fair explanation. Thanks for the rational, thoughtful response.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You could make a compelling argument that Ilya Kovalchuk is the Devils’ best left wing at this point, and that’s even if Zach Parise were completely healthy (which we won’t know until training camp).
no, it’s pretty much indefensible. the only thing ilya has is more goals, but he also has more ice time in offensive situations. kovalchuk isn’t a play driver at even strength or on the power play. his defensive ability went from horrible to passable over the course of the season, but he still isn’t close to good. parise’s a better penalty drawer, he drives play, he plays better defense, he’s just a better player.
Total agreement from me.
I do have an immense appreciation and respect for Kovalchuk’s unequivocal effort to improve his defense this season. I mean, after you sign a fifteen year, 100 million dollar contract, you can obviously continue playing however you want. He demonstrated an absolute commitment to improving his game. My respect for him increased exponentially. I imagine that he will only get better, considering that this was the first season that he has tried to do this. The amount that his defense increased is incredible.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether or not you could make a case.
In my opinion, Kovalchuk and Parise have different sets of skills and do different things well. Yes, Parise does all those things you mentioned well and far better than Kovy. At the same time, Ilya Kovalchuk has gifts and abilities that Zach Parise will never match — for example, ZP will never have that rocket slapshot no matter how much effort he puts into it. I question if Parise would be able to handle all the minutes Kovalchuk gets and play at the same high level, as the ability to play all those minutes at a high level is often something that is used to separate the good defensemen from the alpha dog Number One defensemen.
While it isn’t as much an “apples to oranges” comparison between ZP and Kovy as it would be for ZP and Ryan Suter (to use a name we’ve bandied about in the comments section on here), it still isn’t a complete “apples to apples” comparison. They play the same position, and they do many of the same things, but the value placed on the things they do differently can be very subjective. How many extra goals is Kovalchuk’s offense worth, and how many “goals for plus goals prevented” are Parise’s talents giving you? Lou Lamorello might know a guy who could run the numbers for you, as that was one of the core arguments of the 1991 arbitration case.
They play the same position, and they do many of the same things, but the value placed on the things they do differently can be very subjective
I disagree. Kovalchuk’s ‘extra offense’ isn’t really worth anything, that’s the point I’m trying to make. There is no ‘extra offense’. And yes, Kovalchuk is able to play more minutes, but that’s because he basically stays out of corner scrums if possible and glides around the ice when he’s not part of the play.
Kovalchuk’s ‘extra offense’ isn’t really worth anything
You’re right. Scoring more goals is useless in hockey.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Triumph is, in my opinion, exactly right. I think you’re overvaluing Kovalchuk’s added offense. You say that Parise will never match his slap shot or some of his offensive skills, just as Kovalchuk will never match Parise’s defensive skills. But you leave out one very, very important fact: Parise has ways of compensating for the skills that he is missing compared to Kovy, while Kovy does not.
What I mean is that, in order to compensate for his slighter offensive ability, he works as hard or harder than anyone else every second he’s on the ice, fights for every puck on the boards, always gets into the dirty areas, etc. etc. Kovy, on the other hand, lacks the same number of skills that could make up for his defensive skills deficit as compared to Parise.
Therefore, the equation works out like this: Parise’s better defense > Kovalchuk’s better offense.
By a long shot. That’s my take.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d tend to agree, but I think the point acasser is trying to make is that an argument could be made either way.
It’s in the eye of the beholder whether pure offense trumps solid all-around play, or vice versa.
"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."
It’s in the eye of the beholder whether pure offense trumps solid all-around play, or vice versa.
regardless of where parise ends up, his line will have more shots on goal per 60 minutes than kovalchuk’s line, period. and he’ll probably face more difficult competition. that’s why i resist the notion that kovalchuk is an offensive dynamo – all of his value comes from his goal scoring, but it’s not from pushing the play into the offensive zone and keeping the puck out of his own end by doing so.
i also don’t like the idea of dividing the game into offense and defense.
Another good point
I didn’t even think about the fact that, even if he doesn’t get an assist on every goal, he likely makes the players who are on the ice with him better and higher scorers. Also, you’re absolutely right about dividing the game into defense and offense — of which I am obviously guilty — because the two are inextricably intertwined. Very thought-provoking.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
However, with regard to your second point, I think dividing the game into defense and offense is like everything else we do in an attempt to divine players’ abilities/output/value and compare them to one another. Even though statistics don’t tell even close to the whole story, we use them because we invariably need a point of reference and often feel that statistics are the best way given a certain type of analysis. We will never be able to completely compensate for our inability to analyze players in an all-encompassing manner of analysis, but we try.
You know, this would actually make an excellent Fanpost. How can we better our analyses. What can we do that we aren’t doing? Etc. etc. Might work out very well.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
he basically stays out of corner scrums if possible and glides around the ice when he’s not part of the play.
he works as hard or harder than anyone else every second he’s on the ice, fights for every puck on the boards, always gets into the dirty areas, etc. etc. Kovy, on the other hand, lacks the same number of skills that could make up for his defensive skills deficit as compared to Parise.
They’re both special players. I like that they’re so different from each other – it gives the team options. It’s up to the coaching staff to make the most of each of their strengths. I don’t want Kovy trying to play the same game as Parise, because it just won’t work for him. Sending him into the corner or making him stand in front of the net won’t make him a better player. His “gliding” around the ice is more purposeful than you give him credit for. When he doesn’t have the puck, his job is mainly to find the open spots to release his shot. When he does have the puck, it’s to create space for himself and generate shooting and passing options.
So just because he doesn’t excel in the tough areas below the hash marks a la Parise doesn’t mean he’s not trying out there. Don’t accuse him of that – he works his butt off and wants desperately to win.
So just because he doesn’t excel in the tough areas below the hash marks a la Parise doesn’t mean he’s not trying out there. Don’t accuse him of that – he works his butt off and wants desperately to win.
I am not saying that. What I am saying is that because he doesn’t do that, he’s just not as valuable of a player. Kovalchuk is able to be an asset to the team in spite of this behavior. Still, he would be a more effective player if he did put work into becoming better in the corners.
Sure, he would be a more effective player if he put work into improving any facet of this game. Parise, for his part, would be a more effective player if he improved his shot power, as his goal-scoring range is pretty limited to within 20 feet of the net.
But would Kovy be a more effective player if he spent as much time in the corners and around the crease as Parise? I don’t think so. For the times when he does go in the corners I want him to be more effective at it, but I don’t want him spending too much time there because that’s a waste of his best assets.
Sure, he would be a more effective player if he put work into improving any facet of this game. Parise, for his part, would be a more effective player if he improved his shot power, as his goal-scoring range is pretty limited to within 20 feet of the net.
that’s assuming that parise can improve that part of his game, which he probably can’t. but kovalchuk can improve his willingness to go into the corners, and his ability to effectively dig the puck out, for sure.
blockquote>But would Kovy be a more effective player if he spent as much time in the corners and around the crease as Parise?
no, but he can be better there, for sure. once his line loses the puck in the offensive zone, it doesn’t get it back often enough.
Whoa whoa whoa, I never said anything about Kovy’s gliding. That wasn’t my quote. That “gliding” is sometimes laziness and other times intelligence (as evinced by his goal in the IIHF WC that knocked out Canada).
However, don’t you think ANY player could benefit from playing, at least in part, the same game as Parise? By that, I mean working as hard as possible at every moment. Also, Kovy did show a few times this year that he can be excellent down low and on the boards. He is much larger and heavier than Parise, and if he used his size he would be even more formidable.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, I’d agree, but a case could be made is the point.
bq, all of his value comes from his goal scoring
To be fair, it is a rather valuable aspect.
"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."
Goal scoring isn’t that valuable. I would much rather have players who shoot the puck at the net at even strength but who have no chance of scoring.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
I thought you didn’t want to re-sign Zharkov…
"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."
by elesias on May 16, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was going to say the exact same thing, until I realized (I thought I realized) that he was being sarcastic. Were you being sarcastic, Tom? I mean, in light of the Zharkov discussion below, I thought it was a pretty funny joke/assumed it was a joke.
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I know a lot of people don't want to re-sign Zharkov
Allow me to make a short argument in favor of re-signing him:
1. It seems that a lot of people don’t want to re-sign him because they expected him to score, and he didn’t. This is not a tenable opinion for an excellent defensive forward who will be re-signed on a contract close to the league minimum. While Zharkov did not score much (or at all, really), he had one very, very important quality for a third/fourth line player and penalty killer: you could trust him. Rarely was there a time when I said to myself, “oh no, Zharkov’s on the ice. The other team is going to score now.” The only time I said that is when he was out there was terrible, defensively inept linemates.
Every team needs forwards who simply play defense. Do we really want to sign another Adam Mair or Rod Pelley to replace him? Guys who sign close to the league minimum are not goal scorers, but they can sometimes be trusted to play defense. Zharkov is very, very valuable in my opinion, because you will need to replace him. The fact is, you won’t be able to replace the quality of his services for any less money, so why let him go? If you do, the only option is to find another carbon copy of him — in other words, make releasing him moot — or replace him with someone who you can’t always trust for a few thousand less. Not worth it.
2. Zharkov has been in the NHL for two years and has yet to play a full season! I honestly have never seen so many Devils fans unwilling to give a guy a chance when he was a no-name in our system just two years ago, and has managed to rise to the rank of consistent NHL-caliber defensive player. Usually, we are the fans who allow kids to develop before making a full assessment of their talents and potential contributions. I know that the cap constraints make snap judgments more likely and, perhaps, necessary, but see point number one above for why it doesn’t make sense to do that anyway (I mean, if he provides services like trusty NHL-caliber defense at near league minimum, he’s already a worthy NHL player).
Conclusion: the fact is, you’re not going to replace Zharkov with somebody better at the same price, and you will have to replace him. We’ll almost certainly end up replacing him with a lesser forward, for almost or completely non-existent savings. Why bother? If you would like to answer that question, I am very interested in hearing your opinion. Am I missing something?
Who doesn’t want to re-sign Zharkov?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
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by John Fischer on May 14, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Many of my NJ Devils friends, and some people expressed that sentiment during the season here.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
And to be clear, if he is going to get 4th line time at a salary of $660K or less I am ok with him on the roster. Penalty kill specialist? Perhaps, but I have no expectation about stone hands scoring more than 5 goals next year.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
So wait….If he turned out to be, say, $750,000 (and I don’t see it being more than that, as NO team will pay him more, if take him at all), who would you replace him with when you passed him up? Who else could guarantee the same kind of defensive trustworthiness at the same price?
Just trying to understand the thought process.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he is in the category of ‘defensive trustworthiness’ just yet do you?
Who are my options? Pretty sure I can find someone that generate 2 goals in 78 games from the bargain bin in September!!!
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on May 15, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
zharkov’s fenwick is off the charts. he was a 60.7% player last year. he was a 54.1% player this year.
with score tied: 62.8% in 09-10, 57.1% in 10-11.
you can’t find that in september for the price zharkov will end up being paid.
When Mr. Fenwick or Mr. Corsi ends up on the scoresheet for the Devils give me a ring.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
I’m really getting confused here. Surely you’re not implying that the only forwards who should get paid more than league minimum salaries are forwards who can put up points, right? You’re not implying that very high defensive responsibility isn’t worth any money…right? Because, if you’re not, then I struggle to understand the argument against Zharkov here.
You want a 3rd/4th line forward who plays great defense and puts up a significant amount of points, all for less than a million bucks? Sure, so do I, but I also want that Aston Martin convertible that I’ve loved since I saw it at the Javits Center Auto Show when I was ten. But I bought myself a Honda last year because it was waaaayyyy less money and very, very reliable. Yes, even though it’s not an Astin Martin, it was still worth about 20k.
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
P.S.
Adam Mair, Rod Pelley, and Tim Sestito just called. They said you could have their terrible offense and terrible defense for just a couple hundred thousand less. Deal?
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
When did I ever say that? You are writing words into my comment that were never there. Puck Daddy is that you?
I love defensive minded players. I did the Dance of Joy when Volchenkov was signed last year.
For forwards I just like those who have a chance to maybe score more than 3 goals a year.
Why is Zharkov suddenly this great defensive presence? Did I miss something?
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on May 16, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Why is Zharkov suddenly this great defensive presence? Did I miss something?
you missed his fenwick, i guess – a lot of which is based on forcing turnovers. zharkov is not a great defensive player now but he has the potential to be. zharkov and steckel together is a really solid fourth line, regardless of whom they put beside them.
I guess I don’t understand what else you could be saying above.
When we say that he’s a great defensive player and is therefore worth what we project to be his salary, you say that he doesn’t score enough. To me, that seems to mean that his defensive abilities do not justify the price without the offense he lacks.
When we say look at his fenwick or corsi, you say that those numbers don’t show up on the score sheet after the game. To me that means that those numbers, which reflect (for him) his stellar defensive play, do not mean enough to justify what we project to be his salary without the addidtion of the offense he lacks.
I apologize if I am misinterpreting these things, but I don’t see what other meanings could be attributed to them. I’m not trying to put words in your mouth at all. I truly, honestly thought that I understood what you were saying and responded to it accordingly. But…I guess that’s not the case?
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
zharkov is not going to be a scorer at the nhl level. but zharkov is so good at everything else that he could be a positive value player without scoring a single goal.
Tom: See Triumph’s comment above :)
The 2 goals in 78 games is completely inconsequential for a guy who spends his time sliding between the third and fourth lines and is used primarily for defensive purposes. My point is obviously that his defense alone is worth whatever he will end up getting.
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions
And to provide some backup context here, I sometimes write and comment that there are two of me.
1. The Fan
2. The objective blogger.
The objective blogger can appreciate Zharkov
The Fan likes to make fun of his stone hands and cringes when he touches the puck. Although Zharkov has given The Fan loads of Twitter material.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on May 16, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
When it comes to Zharkov it seems The Fan has bound and gagged The Objective Blogger.
Name a player, available to the Devils right now, that will play Zharkov’s solid defensive and forechecking game AND score 10-15 goals a season, and will have a cap hit of less than $700,000. We can even lower the bar and say that a Fenwick% of, say, 53% is the minimum standard they have to meet.
Oh! Oh! Pick me, pick me!
Answer: Adam Mai…wait a minute….um….Rod Pell….ah crap….Oh I got it! Tim Sesti…..hold on hold on, one more. Um, uh, Stephen Gio…ah, screw it.
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He actually punched the Objective Blogger in the ovary.
Listen I think Zharkov is going to be great one day. Just in the KHL….
I haven’t looked at what else is out there, but Challenge Accepted. Assuming they don’t re-sign him before then, I will look at the available players in late June and put something together.
As an aside, a question for you. Will Zharkov score 10 goals in his NHL career?
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
Ha, I like that. Well, in response: what dr(d)evil said above.
Also, I’ve never used Twitter before (I know, I know. I’ve been purposefully avoiding it for as long as possible). Is there a way for me to look up all of your Zharkov tweets? Now I’m really interested in seeing them. I’ll bet they’re pretty funny.
by Dr. Witticism on May 16, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a site to search old tweets, I just can’t remember it. Of course now that you built them up, they will be unfunny. However, DownGoesAvery did let me post a ‘Jersey Shore’ style awards at the end of the regular season. http://downgoesavery.blogspot.com/2011/04/tom-stivalis-2011-nj-devils.html
Zharko did win one award.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
As long as you don’t expect 20 goals from Zharkov, he’s definitely worth a roster spot. There are players who have made entire careers around being defense-first forwards. (You listening Jay Pandolfo, Doug Brown, Pat Conacher, Claude Loiselle, Denis Pederson? – None of whom scored 20 goals, but important to their teams.)
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Zharkov could make a great 4th liner and might even make a good 3rd liner. He may still get stronger, and that may make a big difference for him. He has speed, and he’s actually remarkably good at maintaining puck possession for his size. I think if he gets stronger he can force his way into the middle of the ice more and generate more chances for himself as well as being better able to pounce on rebounds.
Definitely. But even if he gets more chances, the guy really needs to learn how to score if it’s going to result in more points. On the other hand, anyone remember that absolutely ridiculous assist he had where he protected the puck from like three guys on the boards and then made a backwards, between the legs pass to a guy (can’t remember who) cutting at high speed down to the net, setting him up perfectly? I looked on youtube for a video, but couldn’t find one. I would really, really, really appreciate it if anyone has a clip, because I desperately want to see it again!
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s not compare Vladimir Zharkov to Jay Pandolfo, because that’s a match-up that Zharkov will never win.
Jay Pandolfo was one of the NHL’s premiere defensive forwards for close to a decade. He even had a Selke nomination one season, and the voters tend to give those to forwards who have good defensive reputations but also eye-popping offensive numbers (or at least offensive numbers that aren’t cringe-worthy).
Jay Pandolfo was a high-scoring forward in high school and college. He had nice offensive numbers his one season at Albany. He scored a minimum of 4 goals in every NHL season wherein he saw regular action (toss 1997-1998 out of the equation when he only made 23 appearances). He even notched six goals in the 2003 Cup run. Heck, he had five seasons in double figures in the NHL.
On the other hand, Vladimir Zharkov hasn’t demonstrated that offensive touch at any level. Sure, he isn’t as old and doesn’t have the track record, but I don’t see anything in his numbers that leads me to believe he’s going to explode into a guy who can chip in offense on a semi-regular basis.
Those other guys you mentioned? Doug Brown lit the lamp with some regularity. Sure, much of it was during a more offensive period of the NHL, but he scored 11+ goals nine times (and three more years with 9 goals). Pat Conacher could be counted on to chip in a handful of goals per season. Claude Loiselle demonstrated an ability to score during his short tenure here (and also dropped the gloves a fair amount). As for Denis Pederson…. not so much, but I doubt Devils fans will complain about him considering the return he fetched (him and Brendan Morrison to Vancouver for Alexander Mogilny in 2000).
This isn’t to say that Vladimir Zharkov can’t develop into that sort of player…. but let’s neither get our hopes up too high, nor should we put that kind of expectation on his shoulders. Consider how Rod Pelley was touted as “the next John Madden” a few years ago…. I don’t think he’s ever recovered from that, because that’s an awfully high standard to try and live up to.
My point was that defense-first guys do have a chance to play here. Who know, maybe Zharkov can score a dozen a season or so…
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Defense-first guys do have a chance to play here and acquit themselves quite nicely. I’m not holding my breath for “a dozen goals a season” when I’ve seen little evidence in his play or in his past numbers that it’s liable to happen.
I also wouldn’t compare him to Jay Pandolfo. If one made a short list of players in Devils’ franchise history who deserve to have a night to celebrate their achievements and their name inscribed in a “Ring of Honor” (but not their number retired, no sirree), Pandolfo and Sergei Brylin would be two of the first names on that list. Vladimir Zharkov might someday be that kind of guy, but there’s an awful lot of terrain between that spot and where he stands today.
rod pelley didn’t not recover from being called the next john madden, he’s just not a very good hockey player at the NHL level, and anyone who saw his college stats or his AHL stats should’ve surmised that.
zharkov is much better and has the potential to be a player as valuable as pandolfo.
Why we may be lucky we sucked so much last season
Here’s an interesting question that some people may want to think about: sucking so bad last season and having a huge amount of injuries may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. This comment and the thoughts below are based on the premise that, if we didn’t have all these injuries and suckage, we still wouldn’t have won a cup (and please don’t say you think we would have). Here’s why I think we’re lucky we had all those problems:
1. Injuries — the injuries we had forced us to bring up a whole bunch of guys who we otherwise would never have guessed would perform at the NHL level and, by extension, would never know we could likely trust to play this season. Considering the cap problems we will have this season, we should thank these injuries for bringing Mark Fayne, Josefson, Palmieri, and Tedenby into the NHL on a consistent basis last season. Without that, we would not know that these four players could be trusted at this level, and we would likely be looking at at least a couple of more expensive players to fill our roster this year. We don’t have the money to look at that, and we should be thankful that we know these young kids at least have a very good chance of staying, assuming that they can match their performances last year.
Side note: I’m not saying that I think Palmieri should play on the first or second line, but at least he is cheap and can play in the NHL (if he continues last year’s play).
One more thing
If you’re wondering why I didn’t include Taormina above, it’s because he started the season playing on the Devils and demonstrated then that he has a good chance of being in this group. Neither his injury nor the injuries of others brought him to our attention in this regard because he was already there at the very beginning.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
With regard to Taormina, he and Urbom were on the roster on opening night, and the first few games. Would either of them have been there if the cap wasn’t an issue and Salvador wasn’t injured? Maybe it would have been a toss-up between Tao and Fraser, Fraser having played 61 games last year. But including him in your list wouldn’t have been a huge mistake.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Eh, I can’t say I agree. First, I didn’t mention the cap bringing players up, I mentioned injuries and suckiness. The cap may have brought Tao up, but I don’t really think it was Salvador. I think the coaches liked what they saw in preseason and put him on the roster. I don’t think Fraser would have been a factor in keeping him out because coaches have shown a consistent willingness to replace him with some other “tryout” after a few games, then eventually go back to him when they need to fill another spot. Fraser has no potential, in my opinion; he is what he is. Taormina showed great potential in the preseason. I think most coaches would have tried him out at some point, if not immediately, over Fraser.
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Taormina, Urbom, and Josefson flat-out made the team out of training camp last year.
Josefson wasn’t on the opening night roster but he was there throughout the postseason and was sent to Albany while Henrique was brought up, likely for cap reasons. Henrique never played a game, though, and Josefson was brought back up quickly.
I might be misremembering (just in case anyone is about to make fun of that: it is a word), but I thought we sent Josefson down and brought him back up a couple of times before he had a solid spot, due in part to injuries, before being injured?
But yes, exactly, Tao made it out of training camp, so he wouldn’t fall into the “we only found out about him because of injuries/sucking.” But what about Josefson? Is my memory a bit fuzzy on that situation?
by Dr. Witticism on May 14, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
IIRC he was dinged up early played in a few games and then had the torn thumb ligament. After some time in Albany he was up for the rest of the season.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
Thank you for that explanation. My memory doesn’t completely suck. That’s nice to hear with my last final coming up tomorrow.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I recall that on the eve of the regular season, Lou sent Josefson down and called Henrique, who hadn’t played a single preseason game, up. Henrique was just a placeholder for Josefson. I think it was the cap issues that kept Josefson in Albany, and barring that he would have been on the opening night roster.
Interesting thing about Taormina – I think he benefited greatly from having MacLean as our coach at the beginning of the season. MacLean knew what he could do from last year in Albany, and trusted him and gave him minutes. Another coach might have had more reservations playing the diminutive D—man.
1995 - 2000 - 2003
Well...
if that’s true (and it definitely sounds like a more than likely theory), at least somthing positive came from the MacLean fiasco.
by Dr. Witticism on May 15, 2011 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
I can’t remember ever seeing this many constructive, deep debates in one article’s thread. I’ve only been here since the beginning of the Kovy contract fiasco last off-season (when I sought sites that could provide some solace and explanation…I never left once I found ILWT), but this is the best I’ve seen. Anyone else?
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