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The Atlanta to Winnipeg Move & How it Affects the New Jersey Devils

In between the conference finals and the Stanley Cup Finals (which will begin tonight), much of the attention within the NHL went to one franchise: the Atlanta Thrashers.  The ownership struggles within Atlanta Spirit boiled over to a point where they ultimately put the team up for sale and the only buyer was True North Sports and Entertainment - a group intent on putting a team in Winnipeg.  Without support from the city or some other buyer with a realistic plan to keep the Thrashers in Atlanta, the franchise will be moved to Winnipeg, Manitoba.  The purchase and move was announced on Tuesday.  It's not official official yet, the NHL Board of Governors still has to approve the move along with the new owners.  However, absent anything coming out of nowhere, it appears that Winnipeg will get a hockey team.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the move. The team's being moved from a large American market where hockey can still grow as a sport to a smaller Canadian market that's already into hockey. The team's going from the Philips Arena (capacity: 17,624) to the smaller MTS Centre (capacity: 15,010).  Winnipeg will be receiving a mediocre-at-best team that still needs significant help to become a playoff hopeful.  In my view, a lot of the excitement surrounding the move is fueled by nostalgia - and I don't know whether that's long or strong enough to support a NHL team for more than a few seasons.   The team really needs to A) get successful and quick; B) fill that MTS Centre enough to justify a new, larger building; and C) hope that the fans are plentiful and prosperous enough to keep buying tickets.

By the way, let's not forget why the Jets left Winnipeg in the mid-90s in the first place. Greg Wyshynski has this compliation of articles about the move at the time and basically the move was fueled by economic reasons and the city's refusal to kick in money for a new arena.  There's a lot of blame assessed at the commissioner.  However, it's not Gary Bettman's fault the owner was cheap and/or that the city wouldn't buy in, the team wasn't all that great and so they averaged a little over 13,000 people per game, or the Canadian dollar got weak.   And there's no guarantee that the latter two will be avoided this time.

But I'll stop writing like I'm some kind of a hater.  This is a New Jersey Devils site and I am a fan of the Devils.  Let's focus on this question: How does this move affect the Devils for the next season?  Does it change anything for them going forward?  Let's discuss it after the jump.

Star-divide

The first thing that came to my mind is more travel for the upcoming season. Given the lateness of this move, the NHL is holding off on realigning the divisions.  The Winnipeg Not-Jets are going to be in the Southeast Division in 2011-12 per Tom Gulitti's post on the move.  That means the Devils will go up to Manitoba twice on the road.  Assuming they'll be going there from Newark, that's about 1,640ish miles - a longer distance than 870ish miles between the Rock and the Philips Arena.  I don't think it'll be that big of a deal.  It's just two road games, after all.  Depending on how the schedule is set up, the Devils could visit the Winnipeg Whatevers in the middle of a road trip anyway. 

The second item that I thought of regarding the Winnipeg Time Machines is the eventual shift in competition in the East.  While conference realignment won't be discussed this season, it likely will for 2012-13.  To me, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Winnipeg to still remain in the East when Nashville and Columbus are geographically closer - if not within - the eastern part of the continent.  Should the Predators get transferred to the Southeast, that division will become that much more difficult to play against between them, the Capitals, and the Lightning in coming seasons.  The Blue Jackets aren't as threatening, but I can't help but shake this feeling that they'd be more competitive outside of that brutal Central division.  This nothing more than speculation and no one can really take any other team lightly these days.  However, the East could become more difficult from within due to this move.

The third point has to do with a Moose that we know and appreciate when he's in front of the net: Johan Hedberg.  As an impending unrestricted free agent, Hedberg has the right to choose where he wants to go. While Hedberg played in New Jersey last season, his family stayed behind in Atlanta.  Back in April after the season, Gulitti reported that Hedberg would like to be near his family if he plays in the NHL next season.   A few weeks ago, this sentiment hasn't changed: his family will be where he plays next season - if he does at all.  Now that there's no team in Atlanta, much less a roster spot for a goaltender, questions abound. does this make it easier for the Devils to re-sign him?  Does it make it more likely he wants to stay closer by looking at either Florida team?  Does he just call it a career and live in Atlanta for a bit since his family's already settled there?  I can't imagine he'll want to move all the way up to Manitoba; so all this move really did was take away one option for him.  Take it as you will whether it's favorable for the Devils or not.

Speaking of, in a darker mood, now that there will be Winnipeg Exthrashers, the other 29 GMs in the league now have the option of going up to a player performing or behaving poorly and threaten to trade them to Winnipeg if they don't shape up.  Yes, even Edmonton has a target for a trade threat.    This only works if the player in question doesn't mind being in a city that's apparently in the middle of nowhere, though. But I imagine it'll be pretty effective in, say,  the middle of December or January.

At this point, the immediate reactions stopped and I thought more deeply about the business side and I hope the Devils are prepared to still contribute to revenue sharing for this moved team.  Sure, the Winnipeg Nostalgia Trippers may not be losing money hand over first like Atlanta may have.  At the same time, I'm not really seeing how they're going to bring in a lot of revenue. It's not a large arena and while the Canadian dollar is strong right now, the gates can only be so high.  I would suspect the league is also concerned and that's why Bettman made a point of it to say the following at the press conference (quote from Reuters Canada):

"Selling 13,000 season tickets will send a message to the NHL board of governors," Bettman said. "And, to be candid, this isn't going to work very well unless this building is sold out every night."

To their credit, True North agrees and will make the effort to meet a commitment of 13,000 season ticket holders.  However, check out this Puck Daddy article by Sean Leahy breaking down the cost of season tickets.  If you're a Winnipeg Possible Moose fan and you want to be one of the 13,000, then get ready to splash the cash.  You won't be buying a season ticket, you'll be buying season tickets for three to five seasons.  The per game prices may be amenable (Aside to the Devils: Release your prices so I can compare them) and payment plans may vary, but the team's asking for a lot right away.  It's understandable because if True North can get that many commitments, it'll lessen the nostalgia/honeymoon effect - there will be a set fan base for a few seasons.  This will please the Board of Governors.  At the same time, it's worrisome when you got even basic "Yay! A team is Winnipeg again!" articles like this one in the Globe and Mail noting that the prices to check out the team may be a tough sell at the end.  (h/t: Behind the Net)  So if the team falls short, these concerns won't be allayed.

Of course, even if the MTS Centre is full every night (and if so, good luck in asking for a new arena in a few years, True North - I suspect the honeymoon will long be over by then), they nor the league can control the Canadian dollar. As of right now, it's strong at 1.03 USD for 1 CDN per X-Rates' historical look up.   If that drops in value relative to the American dollar, like it was back on this date in 1995 (.728 USD for 1 CDN) or 2002 (.654 USD for 1 CDN) or 2005 (.801 USD for 1 CDN); then revenues at the gate will suffer regardless. The NHL is still a gate-driven league, and so that's a very big problem. That makes it more likely the rest of the league has to contribute to revenue sharing. That's more money out of True North's pocket  That clearly affects the Devils' business and every other team in the league, while it hurts Winnipeg (and the other Canadian teams) more.  Pro-tip for Winnipeg supporters: pray that exchange rate doesn't go down too harshly; or, pray that True North won't mind spending more when it does.

The last and most important point about how this move affects the Devils are the lessons coming from this Atlanta-to-Winnipeg move.  The market can be big, the arena can be large enough, the players may like the locale, and it may be even be watchable hockey with a bright outlook.  But horrible management can ruin a market from growing and ultimately lead to a situation like this.   This move in my opinion lays at the feet of two positions: those in charge of hockey operations and the ownership.  The former is obvious to us as fans. Atlanta made the playoffs only once in their existence as the Thrashers; they had excellent players in Ilya Kovalchuk and Marian Hossa, but they failed to get proper depth or address their needs to become a consistently competitive team.  This, we know.

What gets lost is how bad ownership can pervade every aspect of the organization.  Check out what Hedberg said about the owners to Tom Gulitti.  Check out what the always-opinionated Bobby Holik had to say about the owners to Gulitti.  On Twitter, Dmitry Chesnokov noted that Ilya Kovalchuk laid the blame at ownership.  When the internal beefs, squabbles, and general disinterest by Atlanta Spirit has caused former Thrashers to point them out, then it's pretty bad.  It also affected the business side.  Beyond the reality that the franchise was so poorly run that no one wanted to pick up the pieces from Atlanta Spirit.  I don't wonder why the NHL didn't fight for this. What would they be fighting for exactly? To keep Spirit involved? To hope the city would care? It's this lack of interest driven by the team's ineptness from the top-down that created this situation.  But it goes deeper than that - let me provide a simple example. Check out this post at Puck Daddy to learn that Atlanta Thrashers sales people were still selling tickets on the day of the announcement that the team will move to Winnipeg.  Laugh because it's funny, cry because it's true. 

That's not on the players, or the coaches, and definitely not the fans.  Matt Gunning of Bird Watchers Anonymous and the many other Thrashers faithful deserved far better. And there would have been many more people like Matt, many more fans willing to spend their money and time on a hockey team if the owners cared about the team enough to have concepts like accountability and getting the right people instead of letting Don Waddell hang around for years.  Hockey could have been something in Atlanta.  The Thrashers could have been a team worth watching with better management both from hockey operations and overall ownership.  Instead, the conventional wisdom will be that hockey "doesn't work" in Atlanta when the reality is it never had a fair chance - "thanks" to Atlanta Spirit and those before them.

Sure, some markets are more resilient than others; just look at Edmonton.  But just because the fans aren't leaving away in droves, that doesn't mean they'll accept garbage forever - they too will be driven away if things don't improve. Incompetency from the highest levels of a franchise only serve to undercut the team and the league as a whole. This happened in Atlanta, but it could have easily happened elsewhere. And it still could. 

Being the owner means more than just signing the checks. It means being sincere and passionate for what you own.  It means holding those running the team accountable, and getting the appropriate personnel to run the various departments.  It means ensuring that the team is at least competetive enough so fans don't just watch the team and think "why am I wasting my time."  Understand the situation you're in city-wise, arena-wise, economy-wise and team-wise instead of making threats about moving if you don't get something from the city or hoping the exchange rate holds up or not being prepared to go it alone on the arena or standing by as terrible GMs continue to make the team worse without any repercussions.  You know, like, the Winnipeg Jets.  It means not letting he team wither.  When that gets lost, that's how these messes happen - at least, from my standpoint it does.

Jeff Vanderbeek and his group that still wants to own the Devils would be wise to heed that.   It certainly affects them.  As it does for every owner of every professional team. We'll see if True North gets it right. I'm sure Gabe Desjardens at Behind the Net will be on the team if they don't.  Otherwise, we may have to call this team the Winnipeg Kansas Citizens. Or something like that.

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The Thrashers were definitely in the playoff race for most of the first half so if their consistency level can be improved, I don’t see as why they won’t contend for a playoff spot. While I have heard their AHL affiliate is really weak, at least they have some good prospects in Bogosian and Kane. They also have some good players in Kovlachuk Little and Byufglien. Another thing is that their organization might be able to spend up to the cap, doesn’t seem too likely with a 15,000 capacity in the arena, but still possible.

by KovyisLove on Jun 1, 2011 8:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Going back to the beginning of the article, Atlanta had one previous chance to boast an NHL Team and failed. They’ve now had two chances and failed. Why try to keep a team there where ownership was CLEARLY not committed throughout the whole tenure, and they fans never got into the game.

Winnipeg will do fine. Their ownership is very committed and has cash to lure free agents despite being in Winnipeg. They can and I feel will spend close to the cap limit.

Also, I’m willing to bet that Winnipeg sells most if not all of their season tickets.

A team in Winnipeg will thrive.

You also say the MTS Centre only has 15,000 seats. First they will sell close to 15,000. Atlanta on the other hand in an arena with 17,000, sold just 13,000.

And you can’t be quick to rule out the idea of expanding on the arena.

A Team in Winnipeg will Thrive

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:10 PM EDT reply actions  

i do agree that they already have a competitive team and just need to add some pieces and they could make the playoffs. i did hear that andrew ladd was waiting to see if they were going to move before resiging. i hope theire free agents dont decide to go elsewhere because of this because the team would be floored by it. but with byfliguen locked up for 5 years and pavelic continuing to improve i think they will be competitive in the east. when they move to the west they could be the new columbus/minnesota.

by poopydoodie11 on Jun 1, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

A team in Winnipeg will thrive provided A) the fans don’t get tired of the nostalgia factor, B) it’s actually a competitive team (and that’s going to be much harder in the West when they do get realigned there), C) the city and/or the owners can get a new and larger arena (this could be when opinion turns on the team, depending how it goes), and D) the Canadian economy and dollar remain strong enough to set a strong base.

That’s a lot of ifs.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jun 1, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of ifs, correct.

Maybe I shouldn’t have put too much faith into the Winnipeg (Jets?), however I will assure you they will survive better than the Thrashers or the Atlanta Flames did for that matter.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Per TSN, they have already sold 1,900 seats in just under a day.

But they won’t thrive, eh?

Sorry if I come across angry, but evidence has shown they will thrive, and prove the doubters wrong.

As per the post, more travel may be good, more team bonding.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:14 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s the “newness” factor. Of course they’re going to do well at first; the question is whether or not they can maintain it.

Evidence has shown that they, in fact, can’t. That’s why the Jets are in Phoenix.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 1, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but with my theory, with this ownership committed, they will spend a lot of money to attract good free agents.

Remember, this team isn’t horrendous. They need a couple pieces to the puzzle to make them a playoff team.

The ownership isn’t stupid. They know fans want a wining team and they will supply the Winnipeg Dynamite with a couple more, good players.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

A strong, committed ownership is certainly a requisite for a successful team, but, unfortunately, it’s not the only factor.

As John outlined, the strength of the Canadian Dollar is a major component and if it starts to fade then even filling the arena 41 times per year might not be enough… especially the more they spend on those couple more, good players.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 1, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point, elesias.

You and John are correct, forgot to realize the large impact of the Canadian dollar.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard cap and revenue sharing make things a lot different than they were in the mid-90’s though. Smaller markets have it a little bit easier now than they did when the Jets moved.

by nyynygnjd on Jun 1, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is true, but it remains to be seen if that little bit easier they have it is enough.

Many smaller market teams adhere to internal budgets closer to the salary floor than the cap to keep afloat and I don’t know how happy Winnipegians (-ites?) will be if the new owners/GM don’t make some splashes and they just get the Thrashers North. Also, the major difference with a city like Winnipeg and a smaller market team in the US is that though both pay their players in USD, Winnipeg is earning CD at the gate. If the CD starts to lose some value, it’d take more money coming in to pay the same salaries.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 1, 2011 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t think so. the jets had salaries of around 6 million when they moved. now they have to have an NHL mandated $44 million in payroll. inflation and the canadian dollar’s movement doesn’t make up for that entire gap.

i think hockey can work in winnipeg. i don’t think moving to the west is a big deal for competitiveness. – the east will be stronger than the west very soon.

by Triumph44 on Jun 1, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you ask me Winnipeg should go in the northwest because of Minnesota:
Vancouver
Calgary
Edmonton
Minnesota
Winnipeg

Move Colorado to the Pacific
and Dallas to the Southeast.

This if you ask me is the most Ideal. What is really going to screw things up is if Phoenix moves east.

by NJDOhio on Jun 1, 2011 9:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Move Colorado to the Pacific
and Dallas to the Southeast.

There will be shrieks in a number of cities if you move Dallas to the East. Detroit and Columbus make more sense based on time zones. Nashville and St. Louis would make more sense based on geography and distance.

That the NHL is holding off on re-alignment for this season tells me there’s a very good chance the Coyotes won’t be in Glendale after 2011-2012. I don’t know who the frontrunner would be insofar as relocation, but I imagine there’s a real chance the team is coming east in some fashion. While Winnipeg-in-the-Southeast isn’t an ideal situation, it probably is better than shifting a team West-to-East for next season and then having to shift a team East-to-West for the following season, whether it’s the same team both times or not.

by acasser on Jun 1, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

That the NHL is holding off on re-alignment for this season tells me there’s a very good chance the Coyotes won’t be in Glendale after 2011-2012.

Phoenix to Quebec City in 2015 when their new arena is done being constructed.

Unless they currently have an arena set up now that can suit an NHL team, they can move next year.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, its a lot of teams to move. I hadn’t thought of timezones. Was thinking travel distance.

by NJDOhio on Jun 1, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

That the NHL is holding off on re-alignment for this season tells me there’s a very good chance the Coyotes won’t be in Glendale after 2011-2012.

The Coyotes who actually have an owner and an agreement from the city to stick around? Zuh?

They’re holding off on realignment because this move just took place now and the Board of Governors has to approve it later this month, meaning the schedule makers get to fill them in and for simplicity’s sake, they’re not changing divisions yet.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jun 1, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

What owner? What agreement to stick around?

Fact: The Coyotes are still owned by the NHL at the moment. The sale to Matthew Hulsizer has not closed, and will not close so long as the bond issue is unresolved. I don’t know that the bond issue will ever be resolved, because the Goldwater Institute will file lawsuits as soon as Glendale attempts to sell them.

Fact: The City of Glendale agreed to throw another $25 million into the kitty to help cover operating losses for 2011-2012. That’s all they’ve put up at this point, and there’s nothing preventing the team from pulling up stakes and relocating after that.

The only thing that has changed vis-a-vis a Coyotes’ sale/move in the last month is TrueNorth buying the Thrashers and moving them to Winnipeg. That removes one potential buyer and one potential relocation site from the equation, but there are still others out there. If things remain in the limbo they’ve been in for several months, someone else will step up and offer to buy if they can move the team. It won’t be Jim Balsillie, given the League despises him…. but someone will make an offer contingent on relocation.

by acasser on Jun 2, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Now that I’m looking at it. Frankly

Pittsburgh should be in the Central (They are closer to Detroit and Columbus then New York and Philly)

Nashville in the Southeast
Washington in the Atlantic

but…

by NJDOhio on Jun 1, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Crosby/Ovechkin going from four matchups per season to one (or two, depending on how you schedule inter-Conference) makes Gary Bettman a sad, sad panda.

I’d sooner put Columbus in the Southeast and be done with it. Sure, it doesn’t seem to make a lot of geographic sense at first blush, but Columbus is pretty much on the same line of latitude as Washington.

by acasser on Jun 1, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the NHL does the realignment based on player rivalries, this league would have officially become a joke.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

As opposed to the NFL, whose geography is similarly twisted to keep their rivalries intact? It isn’t as bad now as it was prior to the re-alignment forced by the addition of Houston roughly a decade ago, but there are still divisions that don’t make geographic sense but are there to foster “rivalries”.

by acasser on Jun 1, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

the difference is that travel is really not an issue in the NFL.

by Triumph44 on Jun 1, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dallas to the SE? They’d be a better fit in the Central.

I kind of like this realignment suggested by the WSJ.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 1, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I like that one too.

Dallas is really the team that gets the most screwed with travel any which way you mix it up. They are near nobody.

by NJDOhio on Jun 1, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kansas City is close-ish to Dallas. Once they get their team (any minute now).

by NJHockey8 on Jun 1, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like it other than Pittsburgh in the northeast and Boston in the Atlantic.

by undersuspicion426 on Jun 2, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Breaking up an intrastate rivalry in Pittsburgh and Philly would not go over well. Breaking up Boston/Montreal would definitely not go over well either. So leaving the Atlantic and NorthEast the same would probably be best despite the extra travel.

by C.J. Richey on Jun 2, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see both sides

but the New York/Boston rivalry is big in every sport, and putting them in the same division would just solidify that in hockey.
Old rivalries would just become newer ones.

Only “problem” I would have with it is that the Northwest practically becomes a Canadian division + Minnesota

Self-praise is for losers. Be a winner. Stand for something. Always have class, and be humble.
-John Madden

by Willgfass on Jun 3, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Only "problem" I would have with it is that the Northwest practically becomes a Canadian division + Minnesota

Way back when, the Smythe was a “Canadian Division” plus Los Angeles. Nothing wrong with returning to the way it was.

by acasser on Jun 3, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah that's why it was in quotes

I just think it’s cooler with canadian teams put across more, but otherwise it really isn’t.

Self-praise is for losers. Be a winner. Stand for something. Always have class, and be humble.
-John Madden

by Willgfass on Jun 3, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

John do you really think Don Waddell is to blame for Atlantas struggles? sure hes no David Poile, but he did an okay job. i think bobby holik had it right that the biggest mistakes were made at the end of the 2007 season and through the season after that. (not getting a new coach, not retaining certain players, and trading away players for nothing.) Its not just working with a limited budget, you have to lure players to a team that has only made the playoffs once. at least nashville has been good since the lockout, atlanta is a hard sell for a top ufa. I think its not so much his fault as it is ownerships.

by poopydoodie11 on Jun 1, 2011 9:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Don Waddell certainly has to take some of the blame, as he was the team’s GM from 1998 through 2010. Yes, he’s got a limited budget; but so do most of the teams in the league. And it’s not so much attracting top UFAs, but it’s in building the team to work with the studs they had. It’s in the depth of the team that can make the difference between a good team and just an OK team. It’s handing out cap constraining deals like Holik’s.

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jun 1, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

In addition, if you take a look at our (hrm… our… gonna have to get used to that change) draft history, it’s miserable. After we traded Kovy, I did a list (from memory!) of our first round draft picks and it was just dreadful. I mean, really, Waddell traded down TWICE to take Alex Bourret, who never played in the NHL.

He was a terrible drafter. His hands may have been tied by ownership (not debating that), but he also made poor decisions.

by CuckooForKovalchuk on Jun 2, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

The reason why Atlanta failed was OWNERSHIP. Plain and simple. They weren’t committed. Couldn’t attract free agents. Couldn’t sell game.

Granted they did try to keep Kovalchuk but that was before they let Hossa go, and other notable players leave.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 1, 2011 9:28 PM EDT reply actions  

1 John, the nicknames are great, sign me up for the Winnipeg Whatevers.

2 Bring back the Moose

3 Anyone else think the car accident with Heatley was the biggest death blow for the franchise?

by NJHockey8 on Jun 1, 2011 11:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Biggest death blow was the league allowing ASG to buy the Thrashers.

by popp on Jun 2, 2011 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I found the Winnipeg Whatevers logo...

Unless you're a pitcher or Gustavo Molina, kindly SWING THE BAT and ignore the Binder's bunt signal.

by Andrew GM on Jun 2, 2011 5:58 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

That can’t be it as it’s too specific to be “whatever.”

Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog

by John Fischer on Jun 2, 2011 7:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not to bash you to hard there John or any americans but I don’t like you realize what hockey means to Canada.

This team will thrive in winterpeg because hockey is our lives up here. It’s our sport, we love it to death, everything revolves around hockey. This team will be there for good.

Also our economy is so much better then Americas right now, Canada ranks first in jobs created right now in the world. Our dollar is doing great. This is nothing but great news for the NHL who can finally rely on a steady fan base to actually show up to games and give their money away.

As for the 17 000 + capaicty going to a 15 000. That isn’t a problem because Atlanta couldn’t even fill a 15 000 arena so that point is moot.

by Kyle Hamelin on Jun 2, 2011 9:42 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think you get the point of the article. Yeah, Winnipeg will fill the stadiums the first couple of years but what if it is just a mediocre team? Will the fans still stand by it regardless of what happens in a tougher Western Conference? Also, corporate sponsorship is less compared to most other arenas. Also there might be a problem in the exchange rates. Even filling up the stadium every game of the year might not be able to break even for the owners if these problems crop up. We know you love hockey, but the businessmen love money.

by popp on Jun 2, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

As I said, we live breath and die hockey. There is no doubt even if the team sucks it will fill. Even ottawa filled more seats the Atlantic and they sucked huge this year.

over 15% to the 13 000 goal and the tickets aren’t even to the public yet. Give it a week and it will be a sold out arena every night.

by Kyle Hamelin on Jun 2, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

The rivial games they will have once they switch over to the western side will draw even more attention too. Canadian teams vs Canadian teams are huge here. We are all rivials. Well as long as your in the same conference. Which they will be.

by Kyle Hamelin on Jun 2, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

but winnipeg moved in part because it wasn’t selling out every night when the dead did stink. ottawa sucked huge this year, but they made the playoffs last year. if ottawa keeps sucking huge for 3 more years, i don’t think we’ll see the same attendance.

by Triumph44 on Jun 2, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well they needed money in those years. I am probably to young to remember it exactly but wasn’t part of the problem is they needed a new arena and they didn’t have to money to build one? Our dollar was horrible then too. I don’t see our dollar taking a dive like that. They finally have a decent arena to play in so that should help the problem.

Honestly if Ottawa did suck ya I think they would still be fine. Edmonton has sucked for at least 2 years in a row seeing as they got the first pick but they still fill seats fine.

by Kyle Hamelin on Jun 2, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Winnipeg will fill the stadiums the first couple of years but what if it is just a mediocre team?

Ever heard of the leafs?

by BDoherty31 on Jun 3, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

True, but Toronto is a much more populous area than Winnipeg.

There are over 5 million people in the Metropolitan area of Toronto according to the 2006 census. There are 694,668 in the Metropolitan area of Winnipeg according to the same census

While both have probably grown a little in the past 5 years, there are 7 times more potential fans to draw from in Toronto. Plus, they’re an Original 6 team and have generations of fans willing to buy tickets.

It’s not really a fair comparison.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 3, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Edmonton is probably a fairer comparison, boasting a hair over 1m people in 2006, sucking for a period of time and not being an original team… and they still sell out every year.

However, as of 2008 the median income of households in Edmonton was second highest among 33 cities in Canada at $88.2k, whereas Winnipeg was 19th with $70.5k.

That means that fans in Edmonton generally have more disposable income and are more capable of absorbing raised ticket prices, etc.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 3, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah don’t get me wrong I totally agree with you on the front that Toronto has a much wider audience, a longer history, fans with more money and so on. Just trying to play a little devils advocate here. I know the Leafers have a solid fanbase already built but I mean you can see how tolerant the fans here are. We pay some of the highest ticket prices in the league, as well as some of the highest food and beverage prices in the league, to see one of the more consistently under performing teams year in year out. I trust in the dedication of Canadians(maybe a bit too much undeniably) to fill those seats. We love our hockey here to a point where I believe disposable income shouldn’t deter too many people from attending a game every once in a while, enough to fill those seats hopefully.

by BDoherty31 on Jun 3, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t question Canadian’s devotion to the sport, but I do question the automatic assumption many seem to have that a team will survive in Winnipeg just because it’s in Canada when it’s been proven in the past that there are other important factors involved than a devoted fan base.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 3, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about Detroit?

Population 713,777

by NJDOhio on Jun 3, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s Detroit proper; the Detroit Metropolitan Area has about 4.3 million people.

by nyynygnjd on Jun 3, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also our economy is so much better then Americas right now, Canada ranks first in jobs created right now in the world. Our dollar is doing great.

Will it be the same in a year? 5? 10?

Things are good now, but historically, booms are often followed by busts… usually because things level out but too many expected the boom to last forever and overextended themselves.

As for the 17 000 + capaicty going to a 15 000. That isn’t a problem because Atlanta couldn’t even fill a 15 000 arena so that point is moot.

It won’t be moot if the CD starts to lose its value. Will they build a new, bigger arena this time? Will it still sell out if they have to raise ticket prices and/or if the team stinks out loud for a few years and big ticket free agents shun the team/can’t be afforded?

These are questions no one can answer right now and while your stance is entirely defensible, one can’t overlook the fact that this very town already lost a team due to economic reasons. While things are different now, the same concerns remain.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 2, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see your concerns and I can see it being hard to bring big names to there. Hopefully it doesn’t become and issue where they have to overpay already overpaid people just to get them to come.

Just wondering what do you mean by CD?

by Kyle Hamelin on Jun 2, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

CD = Canadian Dollar.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 2, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks. Well hopefully this doesn’t happen. From what I’ve seen we are coming out of this market downfall pretty good and you can see the industries are climbing back up to their standards they had before. But you right no one has a crystal ball to see if we will still be in the same position 5 – 10 years from now.

I personally think this move makes sense right now and has a higher ceiling then leaving the team in Atlanta.

by Kyle Hamelin on Jun 2, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is exactly what I was trying to explain in my previous comments.

by Marty's Better #30 on Jun 2, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Higher ceiling? I don’t think so. Atlanta has 7x the population of Winnipeg and many times more money, plus it’s a great market for sports in general. It’s just that the owners blew the chance.

by popp on Jun 2, 2011 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

The owners blew their chance or no one in Atlanta really cares about hockey? Little bit of both I’d assume. You can be a great sports market for basketball football and baseball but when no one cares about hockey that doesn’t really translate over. Winnipeg could be seen to have a higher ceiling because the overall interest in hockey in Winnipeg is probably 7x greater than that in Atlanta.

by BDoherty31 on Jun 3, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really wouldn’t consider Atlanta a “great” sports market in any sport. Big market? Yes. Great? Hardly. I’m sure there have their share of die-hards, but it seems like for whatever reason, they don’t draw as well as they should.

The Hawks typically land in the bottom third in the NBA, the Braves are middle-of-the-pack in baseball (not to mention the infamous playoff game last year where they failed to fill 90% of the seats), and the Falcons are bottom third in the NFL. And I haven’t done the appropriate legwork here, but I’m pretty sure the local TV ratings aren’t fantastic there, either. It’s a market with a lot of transplants and fair-weather fans, and since the weather for the Thrashers was perpetually crappy, they suffered.

Moral of the story: if you don’t have an owner who cares in Atlanta, it’s going to be tough to fill up the bandwagon. ASG didn’t care and never planned on caring about hockey, so the team was doomed from the start unless they found a legitimate owner.

by nyynygnjd on Jun 3, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree that the Falcons are bottom third in the NFL. They won the Southeast last season and were 2nd the previous 2 years. They are not currently in the bottom third.

by CuckooForKovalchuk on Jun 3, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry for the misconception, those are for their attendance numbers, not on the field performance. All of the non-Thrasher teams are actually doing pretty decent of late as far as winning goes.

by nyynygnjd on Jun 3, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mostly the former which led to the latter.

The owners didn’t want a hockey team, they wanted a profit. They ended up suing one another and then their own lawyers and would have sold the team years ago if they had been able to but the litigation prevented them from doing so.

The fans were given little on-ice product, little hope that it’d improve and, I imagine, little was done to foster community ties between the team and the area.

It was a bad situation that predictably, and unfortunately, ended badly.

And, since nyynygnjd just posted the rest of what I was going to say about Atlanta as a sports town, I’ll not repeat it :)

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 3, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

They wanted a shiny toy to show off to all their friends: the Hawks. But to get the shiny toy, they had to take what they considered an ugly stepsister on that date too: the Thrashers.

by CuckooForKovalchuk on Jun 3, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hedberg

As a Thrashers’ fan I’m pretty sure that you don’t have to worry about Hedberg going to Winnipeg. Dudley hates him and Pavelec and Mason are under contract. I’m not seeing Mason being offered a buyout.

I’ve been told a story of how Dudley’s “negotiations” with Hedberg were handled last summer and I’m not going to repeat it as I cannot prove it happened. However, I do believe it to be an accurate account and I will tell you that the Thrashers would have to be the only team in the league that would take him before he would play for them under Dudley again.

For those who don’t know about our former owners, all you need to know is of the group of owners only 1 of them could ever be bothered to attend season ticket holder meetings with the fans and he infamously told the fans to “deal with it” when they complained that prices were being raised while the team’s salaries were being gutted. Our owners admitted in court some months ago in a lawsuit against their own lawyers that they’ve been trying to sell the Thrashers since the moment they bought them and were prevented from doing so by 5+ years of litigation caused by an improperly drafted partnership agreement. So you see our former owners NEVER wanted a hockey team. They were forced to buy them as part of the cost of getting the arena rights and the Atlanta Hawks.

by Zontar on Jun 2, 2011 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Good to know, however if he truly wants to be closer to family I can see the Lightning showing some interest. Roloson is even older than Moose and Mike Smith is, well, Mike Smith… and both are UFAs.

Unless he’s willing to take less money, I fully expect him to leave.

"I have an opinion and I know you have an answer, but in all honesty if you don’t know then don’t reply, because my opinion will always be better than your answer….and if you agree then highlight your response unless you don’t know."

by elesias on Jun 2, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tampa seems like a logical landing spot for just those reasons. Carolina could be a factor if they decide Justin Peters isn’t the answer as their backup netminder.

by acasser on Jun 2, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Sell or dispose of” the team. That’s the language they’ve used in the lawsuit against their lawyers. Nice, huh?

by CuckooForKovalchuk on Jun 2, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Terrible

You guys were doomed from the start…

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jun 2, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

These are all excellent points. Thank you for that. I suppose his shot at going back to the Thrashers was non-existent regardless where they actually are.

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by John Fischer on Jun 2, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

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