Adam Larsson & Goons Feature in Recent New Jersey Devils Offseason Signings
Today signified two deadlines for the New Jersey Devils. It was the final day to sign Adam Larsson before needing to pay a $100,000 fee to Skellefteå for any contract this season prior to August 15. It was also the final day for qualified restricted free agents to accept their qualifying offers. If they don't accept it, they're still restricted free agents but can sign for a different salary. With the Devils having so many restricted free agents on top of the Larsson question, the recent transactions by New Jersey would complete mostly everything they needed to do this offseason.
Within the last 48 hours, Lou Lamoriello demonstrated why he is one of the best general managers in hockey. His first praise-worthy move was in finding someone to take enforcer Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond and get something in return. Namely, Calgary's fifth-round pick in 2012. Given that Leblond does little beyond punching people, this was great for NJ. The second came earlier today in signing Adam Larsson to an entry level contract with no performance bonuses. This keeps Larsson's cap hit at $925,000; which is excellent for both him and the team. I'll explain further beyond the jump why I love this move.
At the same time, amid qualified RFAs signing their qualifying offers, Lou made two signings that really don't make much sense: Thursday's signing of Cam Janssen and today's signing of Eric Boulton. As with the Larsson contract, I'll go into more detail at the jump as to why I don't like either signing for New Jersey or in general. It is impressive that excellent moves were followed up by some minor head-scratchers, all the same.
Let's Love the Larsson Signing (Now Don't Burn His ELC)As Tom noted in this post, the Devils signed Larsson to the maximum salary allowed for a rookie but with no bonuses, keeping his NHL cap hit below $1 million. However, the signing was also significant in what was said along with the announcement. I'm confident that the plan for Larsson to play in North America played a big role in having him agree to a bonus-less ELC. I don't think he would go along with this if he were to go back to Skellefteå.
Personally, I still think he should get big minutes there and let him develop at his own pace. While Larsson will have a much smaller cap hit to justify, the long term peril of accelerating his free agency along with his general development remains. Albany is still a very crowded blueline. That said, I have no problems with him playing no more than 9 games in the NHL and then spending the rest of the 2011-12 in Albany. I just don't want to see the Devils forced to pay big dollars for Larsson earlier than they have to, especially if he becomes the player we think he might be.
Still, I'm really impressed by this move. The smaller cap hit will make it more feasible to include Larsson in New Jersey, should he prove himself worthy of a roster spot within the next three seasons. That benefits Larsson, since his stated goal is to play in the NHL. The lower cap hit is a big benefit for the Devils, which is obvious. There's also the ancillary benefit of Larsson willing to take a less attractive ELC to play for New Jersey, which certainly endears him to the fans.
I think the only people who may not like this contract are draft picks looking to sign an ELC. Now every other GM in the league can legitimately say, "I don't see why you need an A-bonus, the #4 pick in 2011 didn't get one and he was fine with it." I may be reaching though. I'm sure some general managers will ignore this and just unnecessarily Of course, that won't be a problem for the Devils since Lou hasn't given them out before and probably won't give them out in the future.
Goons Should Stay on Message Boards
Many Devils fans were very pleased with the trade of Pierre-Luc Letourneau-Leblond. He got unceremoniously dumped into Albany after some Federal League nonsense in the second game of the 2010-11 season. There, he put up 8 goals, 5 assists, and 334 PIM in 68 games. Not only was he not missed in New Jersey, I'm sure some Albany fans wished he wouldn't be in the box so much through their season.
Per HockeyDB, Leblond has never been a scorer at any level of the game; he's been a penalty machine. While he wasn't a bad skater, what he gives a team on the ice are hits and fights. While hitting can be useful, often in Leblond's case, it wasn't. Even then, he spent most of his time picking up fighting majors. In short, he was a goon - and they don't help teams win hockey games.
Therefore, I was quite pleased the Devils got a draft pick for him. Yes, it's a low draft pick. Yes, it's highly likely the fifth rounder doesn't become anyone. But it's an asset for a guy who doesn't provide much that's positive on the ice. A guy who was on a one-way deal, so the Devils had to pay him $550,000 regardless of whether he was in the AHL or NHL. By saving $550,000 in salary, this trade quite literally was addition by subtraction.
Then Lou goes ahead and thwarts this move by signing another goon in Cam Janssen. You may remember him as the guy St. Louis took for Bryce Salvador, a defenseman who actually is a hockey player. I understand some fans really like Janssen, but there's not much difference between him and Leblond. Well, there is the fact that he stayed up with the NHL team all season and played in 54 games for the Blues. However, per NHL.com Janssen averaged 4:52 of ice time per game in a season where he scored one (1) goal, made 3 assists, and put up 161 penalties. Per Behind the Net, he took 9 penalties while drawing 2, which doesn't seem so bad until you consider his ice time was so limited by the 17 fighting majors he took. Anyway, what do you call some one who gets very limited ice time, incredibly protected minutes, and lack of any contribution to anything that actually contributes to winning hockey games? A goon! This after trading away Leblond, this makes no sense.
Oh, and to make this even more bewildering, Janssen has played 260 NHL games and 108 AHL games. While he's on a two-way contract, this makes keeping him down in Albany a bit of a problem. According to the "development player" guidelines Tom referenced in this post about the Albany Devils' depth chart, Janssen would fill that final "veteran" spot., wherein he can dress and do very little but "enforce" on the ice.
Now, what makes this worse is that the Devils went out and signed Eric Boulton, a 34 year old goon! At least he's not 35 or older. But Boulton, like Janssen, isn't good at hockey. Yes, he had a hat trick in a blowout win over the Devils last season - which was 50% of his goal production for the season. Don't just take my word for it, take Benjamin Wendorf's at Arctic Ice Hockey when he reviewed each player on what was then Winnipeg's roster. It should be no surprised Ben gave him a big, fat "F." In addition to highlight Boulton's poor basic and advanced stats, he also sums up why I have such disdain for this type of player.
For one, whether their fights actually pump anybody up is debatable (people tend to focus on the times when something good happens after a fight, rather than all the times nothing or something bad happens afterward). For two, they take a roster spot and can only be trusted with less than 10 minutes of ice time per game; heaven help you if you need him to take an injured player's place. For three, they take the roster spot of more talented players or ones with potential that needs developing. For four, they get matched up against weak competition (usually, an opposing line with a fighter on it), competition that could be exploited had you decided to not take the bait and force them to play hockey.
Lou just got two of these players. Great.
Here's the sad part. According to Gulitti, it's a two-year, one-way deal! And he's old enough (34) that he would take up a veteran spot Janssen would, so it's not likely that both can be buried in Albany. Well, there goes whatever small savings came from dealing away Leblond. Lou basically has repeated what he Andrew Peters just after signing a goon in Janssen! Why do I feel like I'm going to be writing about buying him out next year?
The only positive you can come away with both signings is that the Devils got "tougher," which is code for "they may fight more." As if that was an actual problem with the Devils last season or in any other season. Even if you feel they get pushed around, nothing Janssen or Boulton will do will really stop it and in the cases where they do play in NJ, you're basically telling the wingers ahead of them to get ready to be double-shifted.
Simply, neither signing makes much sense to me and the fact that Lou signed both was dumb. Incredible given the two brilliant moves he made earlier.
What's Next
There aren't that many more contracts that need to be signed. Gulitti reported on Thursday that Vladimir Zharkov ($577,500) and Matthew Corrente ($660,000) signed their qualifying offers. On Friday, Gulitti reported that the Devils extended the deadline for Matt Taormina for his qualifying offer, but are in negotiations for a different deal. For Albany, the Devils re-signed Chad Wiseman and Jeff Frazee. As of this writing, it's unclear whether Maxim Noreau, Steve Zalewski, and Nathan Perkovich signed their qualifying offers; though Lou indicated on Thursday that he expected that they will. All of these are/would be on two-way deals, so New Jersey has some flexibility with their roster and their cap to prepare for the players they have left to sign.
Who's left? The Devils essentially have until August 2 to sign Zach Parise (his hearing is on August 3), until August 3 to sign Mark Fraser (his hearing is on August 4), and at some point this summer, they'll have to hire a head coach. I suspect that once all of the other RFAs are signed, Lou will know how much space he has to clear and/or what he can offer in attempting to re-sign Parise. Therefore, if there's going to be a trade, then it's reasonable to think it would happen sometime before then.
There's one significant cap hit elephant in the room: Bryce Salvador. Should he be unable to return due to medical reasons, then his $2.9 million can go on LTIR and that gives the Devils quite a bit of space to work with. However, that's a risky thing to count on. Also, since Salvador wants to make a legit comeback into hockey, I would like to think the Devils would give him every opportunity to do so. I hope he makes it, regardless of the size of his contract. Still, that $2.9 million cap hit has to be accounted for rather than assumed to be a non-factor. Hence, I think some trades should be coming in this offseason unless Parise and Fraser collectively come cheaply (which is highly unlikely at least in Parise's case).
Your Take
What do you make of the recent signings by the New Jersey Devils? Do you love the entry level contract Larsson signed? Were you glad that Leblond was traded for a fifth round pick? Were you disappointed by the Devils following that move by signing Janssen and then Boulton today? Who do you think stands to get moved from this roster, should the Devils need to do to make cap space? Who among the RFAs do you think will be in New Jersey to start 2011-12? Please leave all of your answers and other thoughts in the comments. Thanks for reading.
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i don’t think boulton deserves an F, ben was just yammering about why he doesn’t like fighters. boulton’s advanced stats are not as bad as you might think, plus his shooting percentage is surprisingly high for his career. he’s bad, but he’s not F bad. i just think one of boulton or janssen would be okay, but both is blocking up the roster.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Well, I agree with Ben’s yammering about why he doesn’t like fighters. I can buy Boulton not being bad; but what I really hate is that he was signed after Janssen was. I wasn’t really happy with the Janssen signing on it’s own, but this just compounds it.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 15, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree, but i do want to stress boulton is a way better hockey player than janssen. boulton can capably take a regular shift and not completely fall apart.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
I don't think you will get your wish John
Even if Larsson starts the year in Albany to get acquainted with the North American game , I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he came up in the 2nd half of the season assuming he is playing well.
While I agree with you that burning his ELC isn’t a great idea, I do question if his general development would be be hurt by playing 12-16 “protected” minutes a night in NJ. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that he would improve throughout the year and his role could possibly expand as the year progresses all while getting accustomed to the rigors of the NHL.
As a comparison I would be interested to see how Hedman’s and Doughty’s minutes/roles expanded as their rookie seasons progressed. Would Doughty’s sophomore season been as prolific if he didn’t play 81 games as an 18 year old?
If Larsson isn’t deemed “good enough” to make the roster out of Training Camp, I don’t see how a half-season (or so) at Albany would be enough seasoning to vault him past the youth that will be on the blue line this season. Injuries could make me change my point of view on that one, as would general ineffectiveness among whichever members of the Kiddie Contingent start the year in Newark (or get the first batch of recalls if/when it becomes time to shuffle bodies there)…. but my opinion is that he needs to be good enough from the get-go to justify anything more than a handful of games.
Burning the first year of Adam Larsson’s ELC — and a very cap-friendly ELC at that — for 30-odd games of protected minutes would be a waste. Either Larsson needs to be able to contribute in a meaningful way, or he needs the entire season to learn, grow, and adjust. (Of course, if one wishes to recall him for a few days here and there to have him practice with Larry Robinson and the other big boys, that’s also alright by me.)
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it....
So…Cam Janssen and Eric Boulton hmmm? So quickly we forget PL3 and Andrew Peters and how well they worked out in our glorious system that is NJ Devils hockey. The modern day NHL does not require this antiquated model of hockey player any longer. I want to see a player that can not only fight…but skate…score…back check and all around compete on the ice in the time he is allocated. I would rather have (brace yourself if you are weak of stomach/heart/mind) the Matt Cooke’s…Darcy Tucker’s ….and yes…David Clarkson’s of the world on the team than a one dimensional goon.
I hope to join Claude Lemieux in Hell one day for a beer....
none of these guys could fight heavyweights, or even really come close. cooke is accused of running away from fights.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Are you familiar with the plight of the “dinosaurs”? Or the concept of “natural selection”?
I hope to join Claude Lemieux in Hell one day for a beer....
are you familiar with the fact that our division has shelley, macintyre, and gillies? the meteor hasn’t quite hit the atlantic division yet.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Are you familiar with the fact that goals win hockey games? Kari Lehtonen (Dallas Stars goaltender) had just as many points as those three fellows combined during the 2010-11 season. So obviously there is no need for a meteor…I am sure their days roaming the ice tundra in the Bettmanzoic era are quite numbered.
I hope to join Claude Lemieux in Hell one day for a beer....
yeah i’m sure those guys won’t play next year, they were all signed to not play.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
they were all signed to not play.
Exactly…finally you are seeing my point! I knew you would come around….
I hope to join Claude Lemieux in Hell one day for a beer....
by HELLAWAITS on Jul 15, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s perfectly fine. Winning or losing fights really doesn’t mean much.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 15, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
while you can question whether you need a player to fight, you can’t really argue that anyone who is 6 foot 200 pounds should be taking on guys who are 6 5, 230 or bigger. i don’t think that’s what you’re arguing, but i can’t be sure.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
The correct answer is to not take on anyone and play the actual game of hockey. I question the actual “protection” enforcers provide in general. Fighting hasn’t stopped cheapshot-inducing players, regardless of how destroyed they got after being punched in face repeatedly for what they did. Game-stopping fights haven’t stopped the Matt Cookes of the league, and I suspect they haven’t and won’t.
Again, the whole notion of other players “taking liberties” with the Devils wasn’t an actual concern last season when they ran with no true enforcer in a division with Gilles, Shelley, et. al.; and I highly suspect it would be.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 15, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Will you accept the argument: “I like the fights and want to see my favorite team partake in said fights.”
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
I can accept that. I don’t believe in it, but it’s an honest viewpoint.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Fights are still a part of each hockey game in the NHL, & it’s better you’ve got someone in your team’s to do the dirty work.
I mean I’d be quite annoyed to see Kovy breaking his hand in an useless scrap next year.
& If I’m not wrong, someone’s still supposed to be traded to clear some cap-space, so this Boulton/Janssen moves just would make a bit more sense if Clarkson & his cap-hit are gone.
We’ll see
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 15, 2011 8:53 PM EDT reply actions
I still think we need one of these guys. Not both. Having one guy who can fight is fine on a team taking a roster spot. It doesn’t mean that specific person will be playing 82 games if healthy, but it does mean they will get some time. Cam should play every game against the Rangers because Sean Avery is in fact, a factor. With Jansenn in the lineup he comes a non factor. This can be said about Jansenn vs. many other players on other teams (Ott,Gillies Orr,Avery). Maybe Lou thought we need some more veteran leadership?
Specific comments on the two mentioned brawlers from our division:
Trevor Gillies was only the third-most prolific fighter on his team last year, and I’m more concerned with blatant cheap shots and intent to injure where he’s concerned. His cumulative TOI for last season was eclipsed by his time sitting in the penalty box, and not by a small margin. Considering how minimal his non-fighting contributions are, I wouldn’t be against not bothering with the enforcer at all in regards to him, because I don’t think he’s of much benefit to the Isles if he doesn’t have someone to take with him.
Looking over Sean Avery’s fight card, I don’t see much of a willingness to step up and fight a true heavyweight. I imagine Avery would try and turtle if Janssen and/or Boulton were around but would be willing to fight Clarkson or Pelley.
Past that, Sean Avery is most effective when he’s being a pest and an agitator, and isn’t nearly as effective when he’s swinging his fists and sitting in a penalty box. The Rangers have enough guys whose primary contribution will be fighting majors…. if Sean Avery is doing the same, I’ll be just as happy to let him and trade him for the guys who are likely to fight against him.
….
Having said all that, I don’t object to having an enforcer around, but I do object to having two, and I certainly object to giving one a multi-year deal. Sure…. it isn’t my money, and the players can be dumped to Albany easily enough (and even left in the press box in Albany if it comes to that), but we’ve seen Lou go this route time and time again and it doesn’t seem to work very well from where I’m sitting. Bring in a pugilist on a one-year deal at the League minimum, sure…. but there’s no cause to bring in multiple fighters, nor is there reason to pay them for multiple years. There will always be an available guy out there whose largest contribution to the team will be to move us up these standings.
On the bright side, there are enough players on this team who could benefit from a little extra ice-time by double-shifting with the fourth-liners in lieu of sending the enforcer out there. We know Ilya Kovalchuk often thrives on such treatment…. and I imagine Parise and Tedenby could both benefit from some extra ice as well.
37 fighting majors... thats pathetic...
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Exactly why is that pathetic? They’re a little bit beneath the League average at 37 fights (the League average is roughly 42.8, or right about where Colorado is) and in the middle of the pack. Nor have I seen any reasonable breakdown that correlates fighting to team success.
Yes, the Boston Bruins won the Cup and happened to rank second in the League in fights at the same time. On the other hand, the Detroit Red Wings are perennially among the teams with the fewest fights, and they’ve been a fixture at the top of the standings for two decades.
Between you and me, I’d be just as happy to see fewer fights and more wins.
I remember the good old days, that is what that comment was in reference to. I want more fights and more wins. Thats just my gut feeling.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Albany Needs Janssen
With the trade of PL3, retirement of Louis Robatille and Rob Davison unlikely to be re-signed the A-Devs desperately need tough guy help so I am ok with the Janssen signing based upon needs in Albany. With the loss of the three guys above Albany loses about 800 penalty minutes most of which were fighting majors. Unfortunately you need the goons in th AHL
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 15, 2011 9:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. Boulton can play 10 competent minutes a game and gives us some veteran leadership. Jansen is on a two way for a reason unless Lou wants Sharky in the minors.
Maybe? According to NHL.com’s stats page, Boulton averaged 8:47 in ice time last season, 6:50 in 09-10, 7:32 in 08-09, and 7:26 in 07-08.
Also: Veteran leadership? Elias, White, and Brodeur aren’t enough?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 15, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
One more guy doesn't hurt
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
also- Tallinder, Volchenkov, Kovalchuk, Moose
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 17, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk doesn’t provide veteran leadership… He’s still a kid, if he was a veteran he wouldn’t break his stick every time he flubs a shot.
So you’re saying Kovalchuk, a guy who was a team captain for his former team provides the same amount of leadership as Jacob Josefson, who only has 28 games of NHL experience?
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 17, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
No, but Kovalchuk clearly is not meant to a be a leader. Kovalchuk is not a “veteran leader” whatsoever.
Um… K
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 18, 2011 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
i think the boulton signing may signal the end of the david clarksons tenure with the team. i would expect boultons cap hit to be under 1 million, and trading david could get adecent return while shedding some salary. boulton replaces clarkson as the fighters and slightly downgrades the the teams skill.
GOONS!
So I just did a quick Google search on our newly acquired Eric Boulton and some very interesting things came up.
Not unlike our departed PL3, Boulton is also famous for an “elbowing incident.” In 2005 at the end of a 6-0 loss to the Lightning, Boulton elbowed then rookie Paul Ranger in the head, fracturing his jaw and causing a severe concussion. The coach of that team was quoted as saying, “No one wants to see him on the ice.” That coach was John Tortorella!
We might not like this guy very much, but I can guarantee that someone else across the river just threw up in his mouth.
You're playing worse and worse every day and right now you're playing like it's next month.
- Herb Brooks
by Michael Gianetti on Jul 15, 2011 10:27 PM EDT reply actions
PS
WLECOME BACK CAM! I like the guy. Sue me.
You're playing worse and worse every day and right now you're playing like it's next month.
- Herb Brooks
by Michael Gianetti on Jul 15, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah its always fun to have fan favorites like that, even if they are pretty worthless overall.
by poopydoodie11 on Jul 15, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey it had to be effective, I haven’t herd much about Paul Ranger ever.
"Its the letter D"
by Rory B. Bellows on Jul 16, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Trades coming
Can’t give Larsson enough credit for putting ego aside and making playing in the NHL within the team framework his first priority. We could have a very inexpensive but effective blueline in a few years.
I think the signing of Boulton, and to a lesser extent Janssen, may be a sign that David Clarkson is being dangled as trade bait. Clarkson is way overpaid to be a 4th liner, and I think the odds are long that his long-term upside is better than that of an above-average third liner. I think Rolston is untradeable and my gut tells me that Lou isn’t willing to trade Zubrus or White, so the only tradeable player that would earn the Devils significant cap savings is Clarkson. Now, his pugilistic talents are no longer needed, and I question whether the Devils would really be able to make the most of his scoring ability. He has more value to other teams, and hopefully Lou can extract some value out of a trade.
I’d like to see a trade of Clarkson, Corrente, and either Burlon or Gelinas in exchange for some quality forward prospects. We don’t have the cap space or the roster spots to accomodate NHL-ready players at the moment – at forward or at D. There’s a terrible dearth of forward prospects in the system – most have already graduated to the NHL (Tedenby, Josefson, Palmieri) and one is on the cusp (Henrique). The Devils need some quality prospects at C and RW to replenish the Albany scoring lines and perhaps some longer-range prospects still in juniors or college as well.
I couldnt’ agree more with every single thing you said. I defended the idea that Clarkson is just awful for his price last night, but I’m even more behind the idea that we need to trade a defensive prospect or two for a defensive forward or two.
Here’s the problem with trading your best prospects: people always think to themselves, “but I don’t want to give him up when he has so much potential. What if he’s the next [insert player X here].” Well, of course that’s true. And it’s true for the forward you’re getting back as well; of course, if it’s not just as true for the forward as for the prospect, then the deal shouldn’t be done.
So if you have a significant number of one prospect type and only one or two of the other type, you better start trying to trade for the other type. The Devils have demonstrated that they’re not a team that can be pieced together with veterans from here and there. We should all remember that our best days were days when many more of our greatest players in a given season were homegrown. We’ve started to get back to the homegrown game (and yes, it has been very difficult for the Devils because they couldn’t stop making the playoffs and never got any high picks for a couple of decades), but our forward prospect pool is almost completely dry. If/when Henrique makes the jump to a consistently serviceable NHL player, we are basically out of even relatively-high-potential forwards.
This hole is even worse because it’s not just that we need these guys in a few years. Even now we are so thin at center and right wing that we will have to make some serious acquisitions to plug that hole in two or three years, but even that is skipping around the issue because just collecting a bunch of guys from other teams and free agency is not the same as having a team with a significant amount of players who “grew up” in the team system. Those players often feel things that are just as important as skill: loyalty; team-above-all-else attitude; a desire to win every game for the love of hockey and his team; and an amount of effort that could meakly approach Scott Stevens because nobody could ever approach Scott Stevens’s career-long effort. Every damn game, that man. He never ever let up for even half a second in his entire career.
Ah, Scott Stevens, how I miss you….wait, what were we talking about?
by Dr. Witticism on Jul 16, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think NJ gets back a quality prospect for that package, nor do I think NJ should start packing stuff like that together just yet. I do think maybe Clarkson’s on the way out, but I think it’ll be for a draft pick, not a prospect.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Oh yeah, I definitely don’t think Clarkson will get a prosptect, unless we give a really sweet deal. On the other hand, is there a team out there with a need for defensive prospects, a glut of offensive prospects, a roster spot that they want to fill with a mildly enforcing enforcer who has some very limited but possible upside, and enough cap space to allow themselves to disregard the poor contract for all the previous reasons, well, we’re your team!
Call now and we’ll even throw in a Mark Fraser for free. Oh wait, darn it.
by Dr. Witticism on Jul 16, 2011 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
the tuffest team in the federal league!
I think LL addressed a serious need for this team thats been lacking the past 2 years and especially last year. In my opinion PL3 wasn’t a good enough hockey player skating or skillset to hang in the NHL whereas Cam because of his hitting/ skating ability and Boulton’s size and skillset make them more than just goons but role players that I’m not ashamed to say still have a place in the game I love.
I think we can now dress a solid 4th line on any night that when called upon can provide 8-10 minutes a nite of energy/spark and if the occassional fight breaks out I’ll be grabbing another beer afterwards to celebrate. It is entertainment after all and I still think hitting and finishing checks may not show up in Corsi, but still play an important factor in deciding games whether some people want to acknowledge that or not.
Maybe LL in all his wisdom just has a soft spot for “goons” and wants to reward their hard efforts because of this affection. Or maybe he sees what a lot of longtime fans have seen is that our team needed more grit and he did something about it.
I think we can now dress a solid 4th line on any night that when called upon can provide 8-10 minutes a nite of energy/spark and if the occassional fight breaks out I’ll be grabbing another beer afterwards to celebrate. It is entertainment after all and I still think hitting and finishing checks may not show up in Corsi, but still play an important factor in deciding games whether some people want to acknowledge that or not.
First: Take a look at the ice times of Boulton and Janssen. They haven’t averaged 10 minutes per game. Boulton got above 8 last season for the first time in the last four seasons. The last time Janssen averaged more than 6 minutes per game was back in 2007-08, where he got 7:07. Based on this, no, I don’t see how either helps a fourth line to play 8-10 minutes per game.
Second: Of course, hitting and finishing checks doesn’t show up in Corsi. Corsi is used to measure shooting attempts, and is used to approximate puck possession. Both are things that are incredibly relevant to winning hockey games. I’ve made a particular point about it since scoring goals has been THE issue for this team – especially last season. This teams needs players and systems that facilitate more shots, more attempts, and a more effective powerplay – which should lead to more goals. Neither Janssen or Boulton, much less both, will do that.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I can only see one reason for the Devils signing Eric Boulton- to keep John MacLean away from the team.
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 16, 2011 7:36 AM EDT reply actions
(sarcasm)
Maybe it’s just the opposite! John MacLean made Eric Boulton look like the second coming of a young Eric Lindros (the one who won League MVP in 1994-1995, not the one who held out or the one who suffered umpteen concussions) for one game last season…. and Boulton’s signing is a sign that MacLean is going to be our next head coach.
(/sarcasm)
In Corsi We Trust
There seems to be little respect on this blog regarding the idea of having a team with players that can establish a physical presence in a hockey game. It has me question just how many of you all actually played full contact hockey.
I see corsi stat laden posts all over the place and most of the time it provides very interesting perspectives and analysis. However, they can sometimes be over analytical and relied on as gospel by some and that is simply folly.
I for one welcome Cam Janssen back with open arms to this team. He is by far a superior skater than PL3 and has only improved in his time in St. Louis IMO. Also, I do not see him as near the defensive liability PL3 was. The Boulton signing is simply for a bit of friendly competition between him and Janssen. The idea is that one will bring out the best in the other. And if both are used on the 4th line it will be specifically used to wear the other team down physically. I am not convinced this is a problem (not yet anway). We have some skill players that are rather small compared the the NHL standard and Lou probably believes he is addressing that issue. Need I remind everyone that physical defensive hockey is what won the Stanley Cup this past season?
Cheers!
There seems to be little respect on this blog regarding the idea of having a team with players that can establish a physical presence in a hockey game.
Because there is no quantifiable connection between establishing a physical presence and winning.
I see corsi stat laden posts all over the place and most of the time it provides very interesting perspectives and analysis. However, they can sometimes be over analytical and relied on as gospel by some and that is simply folly.
By some perhaps, but most people know that it’s only one measure of a player’s abilities. It does help to paint a picture of a player’s skill set more so than saying things like, he can “establish a physical presence” and “wear the other team down physically.”
I for one welcome Cam Janssen back with open arms to this team. He is by far a superior skater than PL3 and has only improved in his time in St. Louis IMO. Also, I do not see him as near the defensive liability PL3 was.
Be that as it may, and it’s not saying much, he still brings nothing to the team in terms of winning games. He takes up a roster spot and even if he breaks even in terms of CORSI, his 5 minutes played per game mean that the rest of the team has to pick up the slack—possibly on the penalty kill—and it also means that someone who could actually help the team win is not in the lineup.
Need I remind everyone that physical defensive hockey is what won the Stanley Cup this past season?
If exceptions prove the rule I’ll kindly refer you to the 07-08 Detroit Red Wings that won the Stanley Cup having only had 21 Major penalties all year and only 1 in their 22 playoff games.
There isn’t a number for it but if you think playing physical doesn’t help winning hockey games you are terribly mistaken. Teams that aren’t as skilled as their opponents play physical to even the playing field. Without “using the body” defending is way harder and it’s near impossible to separate better skaters than you from the puck.
I’m willing to accept that I might be wrong, but you’ll need to prove it. Pointing to some unquantifiable, vague description of play as important to success doesn’t prove anything.
Teams that aren’t as skilled as their opponents play physical to even the playing field.
That implies that the Devils aren’t as skilled as their opponents which I’d largely disagree with.
Also, this overlooks that teams that play physically are built to play physically. If they’re built to play physically, they’re making a deliberate choice to put those kinds of players on the roster, thereby making themselves less skilled than their opponents.
Without "using the body" defending is way harder and it’s near impossible to separate better skaters than you from the puck.
Intelligence and positioning are far more important. “Using the body” is an aspect of positioning, but is entirely different than being a one-dimensional goon like Janssen.
Because there is no quantifiable connection between establishing a physical presence and winning therefore it clearly doesn`t have anything to do with winning at all. Right…
Right.
If you can show how a fourth liner playing 5 minutes per game banging into another team’s fourth liner playing 5 minutes and maybe punching someone in the head leads to winning a hockey game, I’ll gladly concede the point.
Have you ever been hit by a guy like Cam Janssen? It’s not fun at all. It can absolutely have a physical and psychological affect on a person and team and it certainly can not be measured. But to suggest that it is not related to winning is absurd.
When you are constantly hit by someone who is bigger than you the effect is you slow down. You don’t go into the corners as hard, you don’t want to be the first one to a puck along the boards because you don’t want to give anyone a free shot, you get rid of the puck sooner than you might otherwise, and you get “alligator arms” when you reach for a puck because you don’t want to get lit up. Getting hit constantly makes you ineffective as a hockey player and it gets in your head.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Not true. It would take an enormous effort because of the way nhl.com saves their stats, but if another site included hits in their game-by-game summaries, you could easily quantify whether there was a correlation between hitting and winning. For the longest time, I’ve felt that the Devils were more successful when they were more physical. When they get pushed around, they lose; at least that’s my confirmation bias.
Somebody point me at a site that includes hit statistics in an 82 line game summary page and I’ll gladly crunch the numbers for multiple seasons.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Ditto
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
Need I remind everyone that physical defensive hockey is what won the Stanley Cup this past season?
Perhaps. Because that Stanley Cup was won by a team whose goaltender was playing out of his mind, went up against a team that seemingly messed their hockey pants everytime they stepped onto the ice in Boston, and their bottom six just outplayed – not outhit, not outfought – their bottom six to great success.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
You prove my point. Little respect for the physical aspect. Not to take anything away from Thomas but Boston’s physical defensive game is an example to all.
Then prove it. Show the evidence that Boston’s physical defensive game, whatever that is, was more crucial to Boston winning the Cup over Thomas putting up a save percentage of 96.7% in the series; the Bruins out-chancing the Canucks over 7 games at evens; Boston’s bottom six playing excellent hockey at times (namely Brad Marchand); or even the reality that Vancouver’s top players got cold (e.g. Henrik Sedin and his 1 goal in 7 games; Daniel Sedin’s marginally better 1 goal and 3 assists; Alexandre Burrow’s 1 assist in 7 games) or anything else.
I’m not being difficult. If you’re so convinced of this, then surely, there must be some objective evidence leading you to believe otherwise.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
As much as you want hockey to be a pure science it’s always going to be an art as well. I understand your desire to avoid generic blanket statements and dig deeper, and I appreciate this site because of that. But we are dealing with human beings making hundreds of small decisions over the course a single game. Psychology is a factor in this game that just can’t be quantified.
If a player gets hit after making a pass out of his zone 4 times and on the 5th time he makes a bad pass to avoid being hit and that leads to a goal, is that quantifiable? No, because I can’t prove it to you. But that doesn’t mean it did not happen.
by Pillowhands on Jul 16, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yea exactly what slackdog said. They took the body to them and it got in they’re heads.
When they were doing interviews with the players from the Bruins after they won the cup, they said that after game two they’re game plan was to play as physical as posible the rest of the way and that it would eventually pay off. And guess what, it did. The Canucks got banged up real fast in those remaining five games.
Super Post
I couldn’t agree with you more. Janssen will probably end up in Albany anyway but could be called up if needed and Boulton will prove to be valuable asset. I doubt many fans of the Devils have seen him play regularly and those who like some banging and proactive hitting will admire him beyond the fighting potential. Neither came at a high price. Let’s see if they sign Parise to a long term deal and who they hire as a coach. So far LL deserves an A+.
You might be on crack...
If you don’t think replacing A 1 way contract with a complete goon with a fan favorite is a good move! The fact that he is on a 2 way deal makes the move/signing that much better! Lets be honest here. Boulton is also going to play a much better physical game then Adam Mair and Tim Sestito…
As gor the Larsson signing. He shows true class and understands what a power house this team is going to be in the future. We are 3 contracts away from being the NHL’s version of the Miami heat, where all of the guys that want to win, will flock to us and take the championship discount.
Corsi This
I have to interject here a little because hockey is a game of passion,emotion and at times erupts into mindless violence that no one whats to condone or wants in the game. However you put grown men in packs of 20 on a slippery surface for 60 minutes chasing down a 3inch rubber disk crashing into each other it creates a situation that needs to be policed.
Refs do a fine job of this and since now there are 2 they do even a better job than they did but every 1 looks for an edge or what they can get away with. Teams that can set a physical edge or superiority can influence a games outcome. Their skill players will go harder to the net, harder into corners for a loose puck not turn away from a check but finish it. These characteristics most definitely decide outcomes of games and especially 3rd periods where players will spend all energies to get the desired result.
A 4th line can lead the way in physical play and can also stop momentum by another team that is charged or on a run in a game. I’m not saying Jansenns and Boulton are going to be this next years version of the crash line but someone has to lead in the physical department when that energy isn’t there on some nites or where the other team is running around a little too much. We have young guys all over this lineup Palms, Teddy, JJ that need to learn physical hockey and be able to play a little bigger at times .
You create a hiearchy on a team and 4th liners are usually the guys that keep a lockerroom loose in practice and they’re usually the hardest working guys on the team.
They’re also the more popular players in the room. These moves will do wonders for that lockeroom and take a lot of burden off Clarkie and anyone else whos felt the need for more toughness on this team. Call them Goons or jokes but I’ll say this if you met one of these guys you probably wouldn’t say it to their face and you’d probably see they spend more time with fans than most players do. Maybe the game has changed some but I still remember guys like Mike Peluso and Jim McKenzie that won cups here who are a part of a team not Corsi evaluations.
When hockey ever becomes a game of just numbers and not a warrior’s game count me out as being a fan. If it was a game of numbers and not passion and emotion then the USA never defeats the USSR in 1980 thats for sure.
by 68devils on Jul 16, 2011 12:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Teams that can set a physical edge or superiority can influence a games outcome.
This remains to be seen. It’s easy to say, and it’s a common refrain, but I’ve yet to see any evidence of it.
When hockey ever becomes a game of just numbers and not a warrior’s game count me out as being a fan.
I’m one of the first people around here to point to the fallacy of statistics, but to deny their usefulness is unwise.
Because how would evidence show this? I mean the Rangers were hard to play against last year because of the sheer amount of hits they put on the opposition, proving that it made them win some games is impossible.
Draw a link between physical play and winning. Show how one leads to the other.
I mean the Rangers were hard to play against last year because of the sheer amount of hits they put on the opposition, proving that it made them win some games is impossible.
If it’s impossible to prove then it’s because it’s not true. That is: if it is true, it can be proven to be true.
I could just as easily say that the Rangers were hard to play against last year because of Lundqvist. Or because Avery got into people’s heads and threw them off their game. Or that the team got away from their game and focused too much on trying to shut down Gaborik. It doesn’t make any of it true just because that’s my perception.
If I provided some kind of evidence, like Lundqvist’s save percentage being high against the Devils; or listed atypical penalties taken by players when Avery was on the ice and/or lower shooting percentages/CORSI; or examples of how the team abandoned normal tactics and line-matched against Gaborik which caused the Rangers to be able to win the match-up game… it’d go a long way toward proving my claims.
GM 7 CONF. FINALS STEVENS BLOWS UP LINDROS!
….and boom goes the dynamite………..How does physical play win games….HAHAHA HA
CHECK and MATE …………….Game blouses…..ITS over JOHNNY…………HAVE a Nice Day and no need to apologize
As legendary as that hit was, the Devils were tied then. I think you owe it to Patrik Elias who scored the game winner in the third period for the victory.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Knocking out their best player will tend to have a positive impact on your chances of winning. Plus, it happened about 12 minutes into the game with the Devils already up 1-0. It proves nothing.
Contrarily, Game Six of the 2003 SCF when Stevens blew up Kariya, only to have him return later in the game and score the game winning goal.
Ah, I stand corrected – I thought it was 1-1. My bad.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Why can’t it be a combination of things. You put all of those factors together, the goaltending, the physicallity and Avery and a team is hard to play against. You take one factor away and they are not as tough to play against, but they are still a tough team to play.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
If it’s impossible to prove then it’s because it’s not true.
Really? I’m not religious, but I believe the statistic is is that 6 out of 7 people believe in a God in some form. Tell those 6 people it’s not true because you can’t prove it. Not everything can be proven through numbers and statistics. Doesn’t make it a lie. Best example I could think of. Similarly, prove the sun is 93,000,000 miles away. Everybody knows it’s the truth, but there’s no way to prove it. You try and put a tape measure on the surface of the moon that stretches back to the earth.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
sun/moon, got myself mixed up there, but I think I made my point.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
You try and put a tape measure on the surface of the moon that stretches back to the earth.
A tape measure isn’t the only way to measure distance. Scientists will use other measures and work from there. For example, radio waves travel at a fixed velocity in the vacuum of space. So does light. If you know how long it takes one or the other to travel from Point A to Point B, you can extrapolate distance through simple mathematics.
For example, radio waves travel at a fixed velocity in the vacuum of space.
Any method using extrapolation is an estimate. It may very well be a very accurate estimate, but it is not absolute proof. Plus the vacuum of space ends in the planet’s/moon’s atmosphere, throwing off the constant velocity. Again, it may be estimated accurately, but that doesn’t equate to proof in my book.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
I think this is a digression that’s not worth delving in deeper. I don’t think we need to get into mathematics, astronomy, larger philosophy, and such. All interesting topics, but completely deviating from the larger point.
Yes, the larger point of “not being able to prove something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist” is recognized, but it really doesn’t do anything but wave away the legitimate questions presented. If something can be described as important to winning a hockey game or beneficial to a team, then there has to be something that leads people to think that way. That belies asking what that is – to dismiss it is folly.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s really about the intangibles. Yes, we all know scoring goals directly leads to wins. But there are so many little pieces, events and what not that while not directly influencing the end result, had they not happened, the outcome would surely have changed. Taking an extra stride to avoid an icing. Unmeasurable effect, but if the player didn’t take that stride, a defensive zone faceoff occurs with tired players and perhaps a goal against happens. One tiny little moment that is almost unnoticed in the game may have directly led to a change of score. Nobody tracked it. No statistic measures it. But we all know that the opposite DOES happen. The lazy player ices the puck and a goal gets scored off the faceoff. Any moment in a hockey game, no matter how trivial, impacts the game, because nothing would occur the same afterward if it didn’t happen. But to dismiss it as unimportant because it does not SIGIFICANTLY impact the outcome of the game is as well folly.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
And since logic dictates that one can not be called upon to prove a negative… i was struggling to come up with an easier explanation… Essentially my point earlier was that since physical play had no quantitive value, it certainly has qualitive value. Anyways. Drunk. Blarrrrggg Good night people its been fun.
What game do U watch?
We must be fans of the same team but in parallel universes. Teams that can set an edge physically can influence a games outcome remains to be seen? RU kidding me?!
Please I can’t waste too much time on any further explanation for you. I’ll give 1 example if you remember the game. The game is in Philthy and the Devs go up I think 2-0 early or midway in the game on a real nice move by Anssi Samela who after the move gets smoked cheaply by I think Jeff Carter. Poor Annsi remains down is loaded up on the board, all momentum the team had vanishes and I think we wind up losing the game. Now maybe this play happens even if we have Peluso and McKenzie and Claude Lemieux taking the next shift but physical play can set a tone, a rythymn to a game that isn’t going to show up in the boxscore the next day.
The Devs never pay back Carter, Anssi who was developing nicely now gets detoured because hes out w/ concussion for rest of month and maybe this has something to do with the mindset of what they feel they can do vs us w/o any retribution or policing either in that game or in future games. That time it was only poor Anssi probably taking a split second too long around the crease but it changed the game and maybe changed his carrer path.
U don’t think the braintrust of the Devs has an idea of how the mindset of teams and physical play in league affects outcomes of games sometimes or they’re just worried about their cap and a player’s Corsi?
Firstly, if by “playing physical” you mean causing injury, then we can just end the discussion right here because that’s unacceptable.
Secondly, your anecdotal “evidence” is purely confirmation bias.
Take a quick glance at the NHL.com Boxscore Recap.
Salmela was hit immediately after he scored at 1:01 of the second period. The momentum you claim vanished seems to have held on until 18:24 of the same period when the Flyers finally broke through.
It’s also worth noting, as Rich Chere did in his recap, that this was the Devils 5th straight road loss and part of a stretch in which they’d, at that point, been outscored in the last four games in the second period by a count of 10-1.
I find no direct link between Salmela’s injury and the game turning out as it did.
Pro-tip: It's spelled "you." The letter isn't a word on it's own.
Please I can’t waste too much time on any further explanation for you. I’ll give 1 example if you remember the game. The game is in Philthy and the Devs go up I think 2-0 early or midway in the game on a real nice move by Anssi Samela who after the move gets smoked cheaply by I think Jeff Carter. Poor Annsi remains down is loaded up on the board, all momentum the team had vanishes and I think we wind up losing the game. Now maybe this play happens even if we have Peluso and McKenzie and Claude Lemieux taking the next shift but physical play can set a tone, a rythymn to a game that isn’t going to show up in the boxscore the next day.
The Devs never pay back Carter, Anssi who was developing nicely now gets detoured because hes out w/ concussion for rest of month and maybe this has something to do with the mindset of what they feel they can do vs us w/o any retribution or policing either in that game or in future games. That time it was only poor Anssi probably taking a split second too long around the crease but it changed the game and maybe changed his carrer path.
I remember that game from 2009-10. Here’s my recap of it.
Salmela was knocked out after the goal was scored by Carter. Salmela wasn’t hanging in the crease, he just scored a goal, for goodness’ sake. Play stops then. That’s why Carter’s cheapshot was a cheapshot. The Devils went up 2-0. Sure, Salmela laying on the ice because Carter refused to control his own body was a poor sight; but the momentum was in NJ’s favor by way of score and play. That was in the first period.
In the second period, the Devils gave up two late goals. One off a perfectly placed shot by James van Reimsdyk and one that was helped out by a Mike Mottau mistake. Whether or not Carter got the snot beaten out of him in the first period, or whether the Devils “set a tone” had nothing to do with what happened on those two goals. Likewise, it had nothing to do with the Devils blowing PP after PP in the third period and in how they lost the game late 3-2.
The Devils had plenty of opportunity and time to keep momentum or get it back either of the Flyers’ two goals. What Carter did to Salmela had nothing to do with it.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Hilarious!
The presence of a grammatical error in a sentence correcting someone else’s poor grammar is drop dead hilarious.
by MyDogsNameIsKovy on Jul 16, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t correcting grammar, but spelling. Yeah, it was a dumb error on my part.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
U don’t think the braintrust of the Devs has an idea of how the mindset of teams and physical play in league affects outcomes of games sometimes or they’re just worried about their cap and a player’s Corsi?
Also, this is a false dilemma. You present it as an either/or situation when the reality is that it isn’t.
Let me answer your question with a question: Do you think the brain trust of the Devils, or any team for that matter, don’t track statistics and use them to help make personnel decisions?
U can't deny evidence
Hey , he wanted evidence and he got some. You just can’t label guys goons because their strengths lie elsewhere. Yeah I would love for this team to have greatly skilled players who can take care of all hockey bizniz but those players are rare and exceptional so I believe U need players who excel at hitting, antagonizing, and dropping the mitts when needed for his team. Maybe next time BOS wants to drop Tedenby on the seat of his pants 2 shifts in a row Cam or Boulton have something to say about it. Hey if you don’t like that aspect of the game that is your opinion. I for one would rather have clean , hard , skilled hockey but this league isn’t an All star competiton so there is a primiveal side to the game that does raise its ugly head now and again and I for one like the other teams blood on the ice rather than my the team I root for.
Please lets draft a Mark Messier or Jarome Iginlia type or Forsberg but again those are HOF players not 4th liners that can and still do make a difference on 10-15 nites a year whether your sophisticated enuff to see that or not.
Hey , he wanted evidence and he got some.
No, you didn’t. You just wrote a lot of words and claimed it was evidence.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey , he wanted evidence and he got some.
You’ve given nothing but falsely remembered anecdotal evidence.
You just can’t label guys goons because their strengths lie elsewhere.
When that strength, their only strength, is punching people… yes, you can.
Maybe next time BOS wants to drop Tedenby on the seat of his pants 2 shifts in a row Cam or Boulton have something to say about it.
This is the entire point of the disagreement. There is no reason to believe that A) having a goon in the line up will dissuade such behavior or that B) retaliating in any way affects the outcome of the game.
On the contrary, using a roster slot on a guy who brings nothing but his fists is, in my opinion, counter-productive to winning. It’s deliberately hamstringing the team by forcing other players to play more minutes, quite possibly on the penalty kill, to make up for Thug A’s shortcomings.
Please lets draft a Mark Messier or Jarome Iginlia type or Forsberg but again those are HOF players not 4th liners that can and still do make a difference on 10-15 nites a year whether your sophisticated enuff to see that or not.
Fourth liners don’t have to be goal-scoring machines, but they should be competent hockey players and not just meat heads in skates.
Fourth liners don’t have to be goal-scoring machines, but they should be competent hockey players and not just meat heads in skates.
Meat heads? A stereotype indeed. I suppose you believe MMA fighters are all “Meat heads” as well. Your arrogance is noted.
MMA fighters weren’t brought up at all by anyone but you, so let’s not project what other people have said, OK?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
A straw man doesn’t dispute the original point. Disagree with the terminology if you like, the point remains.
never.
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 17, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
You’ve cited one anecdote as your “evidence”. I’m sure elesias or John or whomever else could cite another game or another handful of games where physical play had no correlation to the result whatsoever.
If your hypothesis that “Teams that can set an edge physically can influence a games outcome” is true, particularly to the extent that physical teams can intimidate their opponents and win more often, you should be able to cite a multitude of examples because the happenstance would occur frequently enough. You should also be able to demonstrate that the reverse is not true, that a lack of physical play lends itself to teams playing losing hockey.
While there are certainly times that physical play can have a positive influence on a game’s outcome, there’s no particularly strong evidence linking one to the other. There are many times where physical play has a negative influence on a team’s performance, such as when running around throwing hits leads to taking numerous penalties against. Then there are all the times where physical play has no particular impact on a game’s outcome.
There are many times where physical play has a negative influence on a team’s performance, such as when running around throwing hits
Not to mention the times what the team is behind 6-1 and starts throwing hits and punches out of frustration. Sure, you’ve out-hit the other team, and the numbers will indicate that, but you essentially lost the game before the hitting began. Without minute-by-minute, situational data, one will never be able to prove a correlation between playing more physical than the other team, but I think most of us here have watched enough games to know it’s possible; when you’re comparing similarly talented teams. A team with more talent is going to beat a more physical team more often or not, but if the teams are generally equal, I’m sure being more physical will lead to wins more often than not.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
we could debate this til i turn blue in the face, but lets not forget how many games #4 changed with a big hit namely the playoff series in 01 where the taking out of lindros helped immensely in our upset
by KingHellfire on Jul 17, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions
You guys seriously all need to relax about the signing of two enforcers with the deep statistical evaluations of their worth. These are two guys who will probably spend most of their time in the AHL, where as Tom (or was it Kevin?) pointed out they’re not only needed but these sorts of players are a draw.
You guys want to pout about them taking up the spot of a better 4th liner who has more hockey sense, cry me a river. Neither the presence of a better 4th liner or one of these two goons over the course of a full season is really going to make or break the 2011-2012 campaign. While winning is the ultimate objective, there are still fans and plenty of them who love big hits and fights. It’s a gate attraction for some and we play in a very physical division. You can hate the Janssen and Boulton as crappy hockey players, but for god’s sake stop acting like this is the end of the world or even that perplexing of a move. Let.It.Go.
And please, PLEASE stop with the CORSI’s on these guys. We KNOW it isn’t pretty. But neither are the ingredients and nutritional information for Twinkies. But that doesn’t mean they’re any less satisfying and enjoyable when experienced in moderation.
You guys seriously all need to relax about the signing of two enforcers with the deep statistical evaluations of their worth. These are two guys who will probably spend most of their time in the AHL, where as Tom (or was it Kevin?) pointed out they’re not only needed but these sorts of players are a draw.
As was pointed out, Boulton is old enough to count as a veteran in Albany, which fudges things. They can only have so many veteran players, so he’s most likely Newark bound.
Neither the presence of a better 4th liner or one of these two goons over the course of a full season is really going to make or break the 2011-2012 campaign.
Perhaps, but how does deliberately reducing your chances by inserting a bag of meat into the line up help the cause? Not every move has to be earth-shatteringly helpful in the grand scheme of things, but they should all at least be positive things. Neither of these were, and giving a multi-year deal to Boulton is doubleplusungood.
Roster spots 20, 21, 22, and 23 are that low on the depth chart for a reason. I’d rather the 12th/13th forward be Boulton than Henrique. If Henrique isn’t going to play with regularity in the NHL than he should get 20 mins a game in the AHL.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
And please, PLEASE stop with the CORSI’s on these guys.
Don’t read the next post.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
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by John Fischer on Jul 16, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Neither the presence of a better 4th liner or one of these two goons over the course of a full season is really going to make or break the 2011-2012 campaign.
Probably not. But there are consequences that go beyond the presence of Janssen and/or Boulton in Newark. For example:
- What is Jeff Vanderbeek’s maximum payroll budget for the 2011-2012 season? I imagine there’s a point beyond which he will not (or cannot) spend…. and every dollar spent on a seldom-used enforcer (or one at Albany) is a dollar that can’t be spent elsewhere.
- What happens if/when Boulton and/or Janssen costs this team a game? Sure, it might not mean anything because the Devils win their division by ten points…. but what if the Devils are clawing for a playoff berth at the end of the season and every point becomes vitally important? We’ve seen the last day of the season mean an awful lot to a few teams the last couple of years.
- If you keep one or both of the enforcers on the roster, who might not be available if you’d like to have them, whether it has to do with the salary cap, with roster limits, or the inability to move someone off the roster without losing them on waivers? Could you run into a situation where you have to sacrifice a player just to keep the enforcer?
There’s no certainty that any of this would happen…. but it isn’t necessarily as innocuous as you’d make it out to seem.
What happens if/when Boulton and/or Janssen costs this team a game? Sure, it might not mean anything because the Devils win their division by ten points…. but what if the Devils are clawing for a playoff berth at the end of the season and every point becomes vitally important? We’ve seen the last day of the season mean an awful lot to a few teams the last couple of years.
Care to show me how many times Boulton and Janssen have cost their teams a game by their behavior?
I can’t agree more, we don’t even know how many & which players Lou will move already…
& seriously, there’s no big deal there… Yes, it’s a bit “weird” to sign those 2 guys for now, but Lou didn’t sign Sheldon Souray for a Rolstonian contract, really.
It’s Summertime, I guess
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 16, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Cam Janssen
One of my favorite players when he was on the Devils. I’m glad he is back. An awful lot of people on this site seem to forget how the Devils lacked an enforcer all of last year. They were picked on and star players were hit and hit hard. With his presence I think some of that will change
With all that said!
Sorry for the pissing match, guys. I just want to be clear that this is by far the best Devil’s online resource there is. And I really do appreciate the work you guys do.
Cheers!
No Sense
Signing of J and B make no sense. where exactly will they be playing. How many fourth liners do we need on one team? What about steckel? didnt he fill that fourth line rule sufficiently? as for J, that one is even more stunning. Wherever he plays he will be taking up ice time that one of our younger players should have.
Now, on the talent side of the fence
Adam Larsson will more than make up the difference in income he will see over the next 3 seasons if he makes the Devils and performs at a high level. Being an RFA in 3 seasons and being potentially a top defenseman at that point in time will earn him way more money in the long run than taking 2 or 3 more seasons to get into then NHL, then 3 more seasons before hitting the big payday. Adam Larsson has gambled the pay me now/pay me later theory and bet heavily on pay me later.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Kaberle should have kept his head up, honestly, who watches their own pass like that.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis

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