Wow! Tom Gulitti Really Digs Into Lou's Treatment of Parise
by Zelepukin on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 PM EDT
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I often wish Tom Gulitti would write his articles with the sort of candor he uses to respond to his commenters over at Fire and Ice. Today he was in rare form going into the prolonged negotiations (or lack there of) in getting a contract with Parise done. Here are some choice remarks. You can sift through all of the comments and his replies over here.
Regarding the long delay in getting a contract worked out with Parise.
They had two and half open months after the season to get ready for the draft and they picked the player fans here were talking about since December.
Most of the draft preparation, which began well before the Devils even won the lottery, was done by people other than Lamoriello anyway.
They didn’t even start preliminary talks until the week leading up to the deadline for the team to file for arbitration.
But, to go back even farther, as I’ve said many times, they should have been negotating a long-term deal with Parise after last season when Kovalchuk wouldn’t talk deal with them before July 1. Parise was willing to do it. They could have locked him up and announced the deal at noon on July 1, 2010.
It was nearly a year later before they did anything.
So, yes, they easily could have gotten done months ago without Lamoriello haven’t to strain himself too much.
But, he chose to do it this way and, yes, Parise fell into later in the order behind players less important than him.
Posted by Tom Gulitti on 07/20 at 12:29 PM
Then some more on the topic. My own emphasis in bold
I think it was the plan from last year to put the screws a player who they should not be putting the screws to.
If they had started talks last spring, Parise would have been so impressed by the idea that Lamoriello actually went out of his way to do something like that (he’s never done it), he would have been quite agreeable. It was something that should have done and something plenty of other teams have done with similar players. (I know at the time he was even considering doing the contract without an agent—before the complications with long-term contracts that came from the Kovalchuk mess made that impossible)
Then, Parise hired these current agents, who probably would prefer he sign a one year deal right now and go for the jackpot next summer as a UFA.
Since showing last summer that Kovalchuk was their priority, the Devils have given Parise every reason to wonder if they really want him here long term and plenty of time to think of reasons why he might be better off playing somewhere else.
Posted by Tom Gulitti on 07/20 at 01:34 PM
On not opening negotiations with Parise last summer. My own emphasis in bold
Kovalchuk was a UFA with a small window to get him signed by his own choice—and right.
The Devils could have had a much bigger window to re-sign him if he gave it to them by agreeing to negotiate with them before July 1.
When Kovalchuk told the Devils he wanted to see what he could get on the market and the Devils not only waited for him to do that, but gave him $20 million more than any other team offered (and also waited 17 days for him to accept)—while making no attempt to try to start negotiatuons with Parise from the end of the season on—they clearly showed who was more important to them.
Posted by Tom Gulitti on 07/20 at 01:52 PM
On the Devils acting fully within their rights Vs. handling things the right way.
It seems to me the difference in what some of you are talking about and what I am talking is what the Devils have the right to do under the CBA and what they should do/should have done to lock up a player who is very important to them and has been nothing but a good soldier for the organization.
You might want to look at it another way, but if Zach Parise does end up becoming a UFA next summer and leaves, I’ll see it as the result of the Devils not handling this the right way and nudging him slowly toward the door.
You guys like to complain about players leaving, but you never look at the steps that led to them getting to the point where they could leave and the factors that would even make them even consider leaving.
Scott Niedermayer wanted to play with his brother, sure, but there were other things that led him down that road to leave and put him in position where he wantned to be a UFA in the first place.
One of them no doubt was the time the Devils played hardball with him in negotiations as an RFA and he held out until he finally gave in and took what they offered because he had no choice.
The Devils had every right to do what they did, but you could definitely argue that they picked the wrong player to do that with. Niedermayer was that important that he deserved the kind of treatment Brodeur and Stevens received.
I think Parise falls into that category as well.
I still think Zach Parise will get re-signed long-term mostly because that’s what he wants. The Devils are playing with fire here, though, by leveraging the guy with an arbitration hearing and dragging this out to try to squeeze a few dollars out of him.
Again, that’s their right. They’re doing nothing that’s not in the CBA. But that doesn’t mean it’s the right way to handle things with a player of this importance.
Posted by Tom Gulitti on 07/20 at 04:47 PM
In Lou we trust right? Right? I sure hope so.
All FanPosts and FanShots are the respective work of the author and not representative of the writers or other users of In Lou We Trust.
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When Kovalchuk told the Devils he wanted to see what he could get on the market and the Devils not only waited for him to do that, but gave him $20 million more than any other team offered (and also waited 17 days for him to accept)—while making no attempt to try to start negotiatuons with Parise from the end of the season on—they clearly showed who was more important to them.
Gulitti does understand the difference between UFA and RFA, right?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Again that isn’t his point. He clearly states the Devils acted and have acted within their rights, but not in what he feels is the right way to treat a player like Parise, RFA or not.
You’re missing my point. A UFA has more power, more freedom. Kovalchuk said he wanted to test the market, and there was little the Devils could do about it. They made their offer not knowing what the market would actually get him, Kovalchuk exercised his rights as a UFA to sit on it and test said market, and ultimately came around to sign it. That Paul Martin walked helped preserved enough cap space to make said offer work and it was good until the NHL came along and decided it felt (emphasis on felt) it broke a rule.
A RFA does not. The team has most of the power. A player can file for arbitration as Travis Zajac and Mark Fraser did and force the Devils’ hands; but Parise’s case is different. Knowing his talent, the Devils figured he could have been offer sheeted. So they put a lid on that. They took him to arbitration, as they did, to protect him from getting and signing any offer sheets. When that move was made, the Devils didn’t need to qualify him and don’t need to sign him until the arbitration hearing. July 1 isn’t their day of reckoning like it is for a UFA wanting to test the market, the first day he can do so. It’s now the arbitration hearing date, and so there is no incentive to negotiate until that times comes. Considering the team didn’t have a lot of cap space and had other UFAs and RFAs to sign with more urgency, the Devils had two options: A) try to sign Parise and then figure out everyone else or B) handle all other matters, know how much is left for Parise, and then make a deal. B makes sense from the Devils and that’s what you get with RFAs.
None of the above is possible with Kovalchuk, who within his rights, could have signed with anyone he wanted for whatever as an UFA. Likewise, Parise isn’t going to be catered to like other UFAs because he’s not one right now. Gulitti’s comparing two different situations, and therefore came to a false conclusion with an ancillary Parise vs. Kovalchuk foundation should Gulitti want to pursue it.
Also consider this: Gulitti’s been pretty close to Parise this summer. I don’t think it’s too outragerous to suggest that Gulitti’s getting to hear plenty from his agents, who will suggest that their client deserves ever so much more from Lou Lamoriello for reasons X, Y, and Z. I like Gulitti and his attention to detail, but he’s clearly got favorites on the roster, which is understandable to point. For example, Langenbrunner was one of them. Way back in November, I used quotes Gulitti and Chere posted publicly to suggest Langenbrunner’s not being effective in the room and I find out through a third person that Gulitti wasn’t pleased by this assertion and I clearly don’t like him. I used his work to conclude something bad about a guy he likes, and so he’s not pleased. I just laughed – and ultimately, I think I was proven right; but good luck trying to hear Gulitti say or write something bad about one his favorites.
Now, he’s got another favorite and he’s working his angle bit by bit to turn fan support on Parise’s side of this non-public negotiation that Gulitti’s not a part of. Not sure why this makes sense, since Parise’s a fan favorite as-is; and these negotiations were not and will not be done publicly so it’s entirely pointless. Especially with an organization that’s run by someone who emphasizes the Team Before Player concept. If you want to disagree with it, fine, but it’s not likely going to change and the past success speak for itself.
You are right on on this: Gulitti should just grow a spine and put this into a linkable post instead of burying it in the antiquated comment system that NorthJersey.com runs.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 20, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t fathom why you so staunchly never once seem to put yourself into the players side of things. You seem to always be in favor of turning the screws regardless of to whom it is. At least that’s how I always see it. And while sometimes that’s the right thing to do, it isn’t always.
You’ll honestly tell me you’d not have preferred Lou open contract discussions with Parise last summer or at some point this past season and treated him with the same reverence Lou has bestowed upon Marty and Stevens in the past?
If Parise does just do a 1-year deal and opts to test UFA next summer, you don’t think ANY of this will have played a major part in that?
You really don’t feel the same sentiments Gulitti is expressing minus the snark? All he’s saying is that Zach is a special player and he should be treated as such, no different than Marty was. I hope most of us can agree on that.
why should lou agree on that? how many stanley cups does zach parise have?
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
what kind of a question is that – does lou play for the team?
has zach earned the kind of respect that would cause lou to try to work out this kind of arrangement? was ownership interested in extending zach in this way, because it’s really ownership’s call when you’re talking about a 10+ year deal (as lou admitted very candidly at the kovalchuk press conference).
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
what kind of a question is that – does lou play for the team?
No but does he manages it and coached it twice in that time. They’re his cups as much as the teams and players who played on those championship teams. Since the lockout, which also happens to be Parise’s time with the team, Lou isn’t as bulletproof as he once appeared to be in some of his decisions.
has zach earned the kind of respect that would cause lou to try to work out this kind of arrangement?
I say yes. As have plenty of others. You clearly disagree and hopefully don’t pout too hard if things go sour because lou chose to turn the screws a bit to a player he shouldn’t have on.
was ownership interested in extending zach in this way, because it’s really ownership’s call when you’re talking about a 10+ year deal (as lou admitted very candidly at the kovalchuk press conference).
You want to quibble over Lou and ownership and who makes what call exactly, go ahead. They’re all still the organization and he the player.
No but does he manages it and coached it twice in that time. They’re his cups as much as the teams and players who played on those championship teams. Since the lockout, which also happens to be Parise’s time with the team, Lou isn’t as bulletproof as he once appeared to be in some of his decisions.
and parise is a +1 with 13 goals in 37 games, with 5 goals in his last 19 games. so maybe the wrong decision is trusting parise to be clutch.
You want to quibble over Lou and ownership and who makes what call exactly, go ahead. They’re all still the organization and he the player.
when you refer to lou, it makes it sound like firing lou would improve that situation. but it’s entirely possible that it wouldn’t do so at all, since 10+ year contracts don’t fall entirely under lou’s aegis.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
If Parise leaves in a year it’s because he wanted to leave. We’ll probably never know how much of that desire to leave stemmed from these contract negotiations (or lack thereof) or how other factors may have influenced his decision.
Could be he wants to grow a goatee and bristles under Lou’s no facial hair policy. Could be that he wants to go play closer to his childhood home. Could be that he genuinely doesn’t believe in the team’s future chances, even with himself in the lineup, and wants to play where he thinks they have a better chance of winning. Could be he doesn’t like the tri-state area. Could be he’s following someone’s advice and they suggested he get out.
no, i won’t be. if the devils had a choice between parise and kovalchuk, they should have taken parise, 100% of the time.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Fair enough. Parise is a superior player than Kovalchuk, but that’s not the issue. The choice isn’t that simple, regardless of how simple Gulitti or someone else wants to make it look. It also includes all of the other players that were signed or had to be re-signed.
The GM doesn’t get binary decisions, they have to factor in all other personnel as well. One “minor” signing may mean the difference elsewhere for someone else getting onto the roster or may force some other transaction. Plus, while we may all agree that Parise’s far more valuable and skilled than all of the other RFAs and Greene and Hedberg, but those guys and their agents aren’t going to like being treated as second-class either – not to mention decisions on them had a much earlier deadline than June 3.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t understand why he should have to put the screws to a future franchise player. zach has 0 cups- exactly. why should zach play the game and take any less when lou hasn’t built him a winning team? marty only made his own contract and signed for less AFTER he won the cups to give the team a chance for more. lidstrom’s been taking less AFTER winning at least 3 cups. i just don’t get how doting on a young guy once in a while when he has the personality to be the face of the organization, and a better one than most, doesn’t make him a special priority to be taken care of. why should zach drink the kool-aid when it hasn’t won him anything? spend the money now, get a cup, THEN ask the veteran who has already made his money to take less.
so sign him to what he wants, and give him the treatment he deserves now for once instead of pushing so many guys to UFA.
“Giving him whatever he wants” is bad business. I don’t think the Devils should have just rolled over, but I do think if they had opened dialogue much earlier with him, they could be looking at a more cap friendly scenario. It’s a give and take. People like knowing they are part of a long term goal and if you treat them as such, I think they are more willing to take a bit of a cut to help the long term health of the organization. If you’re far apart at that point, then you put it off to be dealt with later (or now, as it were).
Status quo.
alright, fair enough. i do realize the difference between UFA and RFA, it’s just that it seems no one else in the league is that….what’s the word i’m looking for…structured? like doing every single thing he has done this postseason and then getting to zach. i understand that this is his method that really does NOT imply zach is last priority, just that things needed to be taken care of before he had a good idea of what to offer and how things will fit, like say the other 15 guys he had to sign to actually have a full team to put on the ice.
but this method just seems outdated. the professional sports economy is different from even the 90s. it’s not a horrible or even uncommon thing to just court a young player to stay even well before he ever has the chance to. it’s just every season lou’s methods seem more and more outdated. hell, he’s still signing goons to take up roster spots like they’re going to have to fight the 70’s flyers again.
Agreed. I don’t necessarily like the way he has done things this off season, either. Then again, if he can get ZP signed long-term with a palatable cap hit through all this, then I suppose that’s why he’s the man. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Status quo.
that’s the thing- this is all going to be hilarious once he signs for like 50 years for 200mil (exaggeration). i do believe things will get done, he will get a reasonable contract (and hopefully a long one) and everything will be nice and rosy and we’ll be laughing at a near-miss that never was. but the fact remains it’s lou’s way of dealing with things that irks some people, whether it works (3 cups) or not (since then). sometimes you want the professional to just do his job seemingly without emotion, sometimes you want some transparency and actually have a soft spot for a young guy for cryin out loud- and show it to the fans by signing him before the last possible minute before arbitration (exaggeration).
gulitti is completely in parise’s pocket. that much is obvious. it sounds like he’s already playing parise’s apologist for what’s about to transpire. and no doubt he’s not looking forward to 5+ years of bland kovalchuk quotes.
i do think some of this will have played a part in it, but there’s a reason why you don’t negotiate a contract a year in advance, and it happened this year – parise missed the entire season with an injury.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Cmon, admit it. You are going to miss the weekly ‘Why Do The Devils Keep Screwing Zach Parise’ themed articles next summer.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can’t fathom why you so staunchly never once seem to put yourself into the players side of things. You seem to always be in favor of turning the screws regardless of to whom it is. At least that’s how I always see it. And while sometimes that’s the right thing to do, it isn’t always.
Selective memory will do that. For example: While I keep mentioning how Bryce Salvador could be placed on LTIR, I’m also the one of the few bringing up the inconvenient fact that he could make a comeback and if he can, I would expect the Devils to let him do so.
You’ll honestly tell me you’d not have preferred Lou open contract discussions with Parise last summer or at some point this past season and treated him with the same reverence Lou has bestowed upon Marty and Stevens in the past?
Parise’s an excellent player; but he’s not Brodeur or Stevens. Also, different people, different situations, and even different times.
If Parise does just do a 1-year deal and opts to test UFA next summer, you don’t think ANY of this will have played a major part in that?
It might, but you and I won’t truly know unless you’ve talked to Zach Parise, and not his agents but the man himself, and he gives you a straight answer. Maybe he’s slighted that Lou isn’t kissing his proverbial ring. Maybe he’s always wanted to test the market. Maybe he wants to be somewhere else. Maybe he wants better pizza. Who knows. Let’s worry about that situation when it actually happens.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Where is he going that has better pizza then NJ? Nowhere!!!
Otherwise I agree with you.
by Bobby V on Jul 21, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I spent a couple of years at graduate school out in the Midwest (specifically, at the University of Wisconsin). I’m quite partial to Chicago’s pizza, moreso than most of the drek I can get around here.
It’s hard to quantify “best pizza” in an objective sense. Purely subjectively, I think Chicago’s is better. It’s my opinion.
I don’t know, maybe Parise goes to stupid chain places like Papa John’s instead of one of the thousands of local, superior spots to get a slice.
Note: I don’t know about Chicago, their pizza’s, like, a dish.
Note 2: This will not turn into a digression about pizza in NJ. All you need to know is that if you’re getting it from Papa John’s, Dominos, etc. in NJ, then you’re either getting a ridiculous deal or you don’t know any better. I hate to be so ironclad about it, but I have to have reasonable lines in the sand and this is one of them.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Gulitti’s bashing the Devils organization at any given opportunity when he’s chatting with the fans. He’s a smart guy, so he knows how to do it precociously but he’s a real cancer.
I still think, he’s doing a decent job as a journalist. way better than Chere imo.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 PM EDT reply actions
What you call bashing I call speaking out honestly on his assessment of a situation he’s clearly a lot closer to than any of us.
Sure, if by honest, you mean slanted.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 20, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Slanted? As if he has something to personally gain from all of the this? He’s stating his opinion.
Depsite popular belief, and the blog’s name Lou is not infallible.
Never said Lou was infallible. You have must have missed the past few days where I was railing against the Boulton and Janssen contracts. And the continued insistence that this team has cap problems. And a whole lot of other posts.
And Gulitti totally has something to gain from this. You’re not seeing Parise getting questions from Rich Chere or NJ.com for him to answer specifically on their sites, are you?
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 20, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Chere really has much passion for his job as Gulitti. He does just enough to get by to be who he is for the the job he’s assigned. I’m sure were he to try and do a Q&A with Parise, Parise probably would. It’s Chere who I don’t think want’s to be bothered with that extra work and effort.
by Zelepukin on Jul 20, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just may say I really try hard to not act like a biased fan, but I don’t agree with Gulitti’s way to speak about this team when he’s chatting. Sorry I can’t lie, I feel something wrong with him.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 20, 2011 10:45 PM EDT reply actions
& I remember especially when the team struggled under McLean that the guy made some disgusting, horrible comments about Kovy or the Devils organization that I was even hoping his screen-name was just hijacked.
I swear these comments had absolutely NOTHING to do with honesty & I personally won’t forget that.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 20, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He was pouring water on a drowning man, sorry to hate this. I may be too sensible.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 20, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
What was Kovy drowning in? A pile of cash?
I don’t know what comments you’re referring to, but disgusting and horrible are likely an overstatement no matter what they were. The Devils as a whole deserved a lot of criticism during the first half last year, from Lou on down.
Don’t get me wrong, I think any opinions TG shares should be tempered, as much of his role is based on reporting the news rather than opining. But overall, if he want’s to share his opinions on topics, that’s his prerogative. His blog, his rules.
Status quo.
Sorry I just felt bad for the team, the players I appreciate, wow what a soft-skin I am !
& what’s the point about being so high about the adjectives I’m using, those are my words, just deal with it. It’s disgusting and horrible, period.
now if I understand correctly I should just stfu & let it go. Then call me stupid when someone’s telling me Gulitti was just being honest.
That can’t be serious.
& about Gulitti, I’m FREE to give my opinion.
The guy’’s not such an honest person but more a manipulator, trust me or not I don’t care, but he knows exactly what is he doing.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 20, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay
I’m just pointing out that you’re being very melodramatic. I’m free to give my opinion about things too and, clearly, you are very thin skinned because you took a critique of something that you said and twisted it into a personal attack. I didn’t imply you were stupid and I’m sorry that’s how you chose to interpret things.
Hell, I was pretty much agreeing with you in the last paragraph that I think Gulitti should dial it back a bit sometimes. I was just saying that he will likely do things however he wants because it’s his blog.
The way you talk, you sound like he has profoundly wronged you personally in some way. Maybe you do know him personally and he has wronged you, in which case, I apologize.
If not, I just think your notion that he is some dishonest manipulator using his hockey blog to gain some sort of phantom power/leverage over people is ridiculous. At worst, he is a beat reporter who allows his biases to cloud his judgement at times and lets it skew the objectivity of his writing.
Status quo.
just think your notion that he is some dishonest manipulator using his hockey blog to gain some sort of phantom power/leverage over people is ridiculous
Seems a bit hyperbolic.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Btw, I think you’re disagreeing more with the way I’m talking more than what I’m saying. Firstly English isn’t my native tongue, so I express myself the best I can but sometimes it’s not easy to find the perfect words to translate my opinions.
I really respect Gulitti as a journalist….
But otherwise, he’s smart enough to turn slanted interventions into “I speak my mind” look-a-like comments.
Well, no big deal but It’s a bit of manipulation.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow, TG firing one across the bow!
He may be blowing this up into a little bigger issue than it already is, but the guy talks to the players all the time. Maybe he detects that Zach feels a little slighted in his conversations with him. He’s taking a bit of a pro-Zach angle though, obviously, and he does come off a bit on the unprofessional side here.
Sure, it’s easy to say “it’s just business” but at the same time “it’s just business” has always just been a euphemism for “we’re about to treat you kinda like crap.”
Status quo.
I don’t get why so many of you like impartial reports from your reporters. I want straight up opinions from those who are close to the situations, just like TG is doing right now.
Maybe if Lou actually sees a local and respected beat writer start stating these things, maybe, just maybe.. the whole “status quo” and “no PR is the best PR” schtick might finally stop.
Well it’s hard because TG is kind of two things in one. He’s a beat writer and a blogger at the same time so he walks a bit of a tight rope.
Beat writers should always be impartial because it’s their job to report the news and allow others to form opinions. They also tend to remain impartial because they need access to sources and blasting an organization is a good way to have them restrict your access to things outside of press releases and press conferences.
He also runs a blog though, and he can share opinions if he sees fit as he really has no responsibility to fall in line the Devils organization. He’s doing two jobs at once, so the lines get blurred. Maybe unprofessional is harsh, but it’s certainly a little weird to see at the very least.
Status quo.
I don’t get why so many of you like impartial reports from your reporters.
Because that’s what a reporter is supposed to do: report facts I can’t get on my own in an unbiased and impartial way and let me form my own opinion.
Editorials are opinions and to be read with the understanding that it’s one person’s opinion, and often comes with a disclaimer about how it’s not necessarily the opinion of this company or that.
A reporter reports. That’s their job. That’s their function. That’s why they get privileges that allow them access denied to most.
If I want unsubstantiated opinions, I’ll go to Bleacher Report. If I want news with an agenda I’ll go to Fox News. If I want news with a decidedly Devils slant I’ll come here or go to their official website. If I want unbiased facts, I (should be able to) go to a beat reporter.
Of course he’s entitled to his opinion, and he’s perfectly entitled to post an editorial, but you asked why some people want impartial reports from reporters and that’s why.
So you’re saying when a bear reporter with intimate knowledge on a subject decides to break from convention and offer his opinion you’d rather stick your fingers in your ears and scream “La la la la I can’t hear you.” then hear what he has to say. Gotcha.
No, that’s not at all what I said, and if you’re going to resort to lame straw men arguments then we’ll just end the conversation here.
You made a simple statement: “I don’t get why so many of you like impartial reports from your reporters.”
I gave you an answer.
Most of us prefer to form our own opinions based on objective facts. If you prefer to have your opinion spoon-fed to you source abusing their privileges, that’s your prerogative.
No that is basically what you stated, I merely put it into easily swallowed context for everyone. Sounds silly when you see it reduced to that though huh?
And this isn’t about being spoon fed an opinion, it’s about listening to one from someone close to a situation. I’m not saying you need to accept it. By all means take it or lave it. But to simply ignore it or to not even show any interest in hearing it, especially with a source like this is just silly.
It’s not at all what I stated.
A reporter’s job is to report facts. If they want to editorialize, that’s just fine. Though I feel it’s an abuse of their privileges, they can do whatever they want, but I’m going to treat it as I would any opinion piece; that is, to take it with a grain of salt.
If they want to continue to editorialize, then they are no longer a reporter, they are an editorial columnist.
And this isn’t about being spoon fed an opinion, it’s about listening to one from someone close to a situation.
Someone with exclusive information who interjects personal opinion can spin the story any way they want. Listening to them is fine. Taking said opinion and running with it to, as you put it, “turn it into a huger story and sway things” is, at best, being deliberately disingenuous.
Your feelings on Lou and how he handles matters are pretty well documented around here. That the moment an opinion piece from a respected reporter comes out that parallels your own stance is immediately trumped up as gospel is telling.
But to simply ignore it or to not even show any interest in hearing it, especially with a source like this is just silly.
I’m not ignoring it, I’m treating it like I treat any editorial—as one man’s opinion.
I’m not trumping it up as gospel. I merely find it amusing how you and others can’t even fathom the ability to turn and say “Hmm maybe there is something to this?”
We haven’t discussed at all my feelings on the article itself, so to presume you know what I think is, erm, presumptuous.
This is about your comment about reporters writing editorials.
Since you ask so nicely, I happen to mostly agree with you.
I think Lou’s unwillingness to change the way he does business is, while to a degree endearing and admirable, antiquated.
Parise should have been signed by now. Personally, I’d rather be into the 10% off season cap cushion and worrying about unloading a contract at a loss or starting the season with a short bench again if it meant having Zach signed long-term to a reasonable cap hit than wondering about potential arbitration and having poisoned the proverbial well.
by elesias on Jul 21, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“If I want news with an agenda I’ll go to Fox News” Or CNN or MSNBC or the New York Times or really any news organization for that matter
Precisely. Fox News was just the first example that sprang to mind.
Rescinded. Please insert “a major news organization” in place of FN.
Thank you
I was afraid for a second we were going to have some sort of political war break out in here. Barf.
Status quo.
We will not have anything like that here, I assure you.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not like this is the first time TG has been less then pleased about how Lou handled a situation.
But consider this
By waiting and addressing everybody else first, AND getting Larsson to agree to, for all intents and purposes, a low-ball offer, Lou now knows what the maximum is he can work with Zach. Had he not done the rest first and signed Zach to a contact with a 7=7.5M AAV, he may have put himself and the ENTIRE team in a bigger bind than last season. Plus, he may already know what ballpark it will take to sign Zach, between discussions with him and his agent, so he knows he doesn’t need 12 months to get the deal done. NONE of us, including the normally very straightforward Mr. Gulitti, know what Lou knows.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
Indeed.
I didn’t like putting the Parise negotiations off and filing for arbitration until I realized that no one even knew what the cap was going to be until after the deadline to file for arbitration.
You guys seem to be missing the meant of the point Gulitti is making. All most of you’re doing is defending Lou for his “fiscal hockey sense” to make sure he got all his hens in a row… which Gulitti agrees is within NJs rights and one way to do things.
What Gulitti is trying to illustrate is that NJ — as usual — treats their PR with fans and players alike as an afterthought. To me he’s railing against the fact that really not much of an effort was made to show Parise that he was wanted by the organization for the long haul. Lou can wait until August first but he could have also done a few things, like be more communicative with Parise… who not only was willing to play good soldier but (and I’m not sure how no one is making a bigger deal of this) was considering at one point to sign a new deal WITHOUT AN AGENT.
Plan and simple the point is Lou is turning the screws to a player he shouldn’t be doing it to, he didn’t need to do it to and it may come back and bite him and the team. Only time will tell.
So it would have been better to negotiate a very large contract on a cap-strapped team not knowing what the salary cap was going to be?
I can only imagine the scathing articles that would be written had Parise been given a contract that put the team into even worse cap trouble. Again.
You’re not actually reading (or understanding) that Gulitti is saying that had Lamourillo come to Parise early something mutually beneficial for both parties could have easily been worked out. That it was something Parise was very eager to do, but Lou never once seemed interested in entertaining.
I’m not saying Lou should have thrown the moon at Parise last year. But to not even bother to engage with a player of Parise’s caliber, who has been nothing but a good soldier, in an open discussion on what the team could do, offer, his future and when a new deal could get done? That’s a great tactic to let a player know he’s wanted.
Lou has already shot himself in the foot once this off season by playing this same game with Greene. I’m sure had he approached Greene as soon as the season ended, we’d probably be looking at a 2million dollar cap hit, and not the three once the frenzy of July 1st opened.
Lou has already shot himself in the foot once this off season by playing this same game with Greene. I’m sure had he approached Greene as soon as the season ended, we’d probably be looking at a 2million dollar cap hit, and not the three once the frenzy of July 1st opened.
so you are calling andy greene a fool, and know that lou could’ve duped him.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
No he’s echoing a sentiment that I happen to agree with. If you treat somebody like they are important to the organization, they will likely be more agreeable in negotiations. Maybe they want to test the market in the end, which is fine, but players are still human beings who will respond to good faith gestures.
Status quo.
Andy Greene made it clear he wanted to stay and get a deal done quick. Had Lou intended on keeping him all along and simply approached him right after the season ended he could have more than likely signed him to a much more palatable cap hit. One appropriate to Greene’s skill set and value to the team. But no he decided to wait for whatever reason allowing the market to dictate Greene’s worth rather than his actual abilities.
So suddenly you’re OK with Green at 3 million. Funny how that seemed to bother you quite a bit a few weeks ago.
Andy Greene made it clear he wanted to stay and get a deal done quick.
Right, because players always say, ‘Hey, I’m gonna leave here.’
Had Lou intended on keeping him all along and simply approached him right after the season ended he could have more than likely signed him to a much more palatable cap hit. One appropriate to Greene’s skill set and value to the team. But no he decided to wait for whatever reason allowing the market to dictate Greene’s worth rather than his actual abilities.
Says you. Why should after the season matter? Greene can’t wait 2 more months to get a raise? Again, you’re calling him a fool. You’re saying he has no idea what he’s worth on the market and has no idea how to negotiate a contract.
So suddenly you’re OK with Green at 3 million. Funny how that seemed to bother you quite a bit a few weeks ago.
That would have bothered me under a 62 million dollar cap, sure. 64 million, not so much, it’s a fine contract and one of the best D contracts signed this off-season.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
<blockquoteRight, because players always say, ‘Hey, I’m gonna leave here.’>
And when they say they really want to stay, they’re always ingenious too right?
Says you. Why should after the season matter? Greene can’t wait 2 more months to get a raise? Again, you’re calling him a fool. You’re saying he has no idea what he’s worth on the market and has no idea how to negotiate a contract.
The point is Green was willing to skip free agency altogether and quite possibly take less to ensure he stayed on the team. You really want to think it was all talk, be my guest. I don’t. I firmly believe Greene could have been had at 2 million a year.
it’s a fine contract and one of the best D contracts signed this off-season.
See that? Get used to it. It’s going to be flying back at you a lot in the next 4 years when Greene under performs to his cap hit or becomes a drag on other potential signings in the years to come.
The point is Green was willing to skip free agency altogether and quite possibly take less to ensure he stayed on the team. You really want to think it was all talk, be my guest. I don’t. I firmly believe Greene could have been had at 2 million a year.
so again, greene is a sucker. do you understand that you think he would’ve taken a 1/3rd cut in pay? he already was the best non-ELC value in the league the last 2 years, playing on a near minimum salary while playing over 20 minutes a game. so i guess greene just hates money. maybe greene told the devils, look, i’m going to test UFA, but i really want to stay here. i mean, the idea that greene would sign for 2 million when tom poti signed for 2.9 million is laughable on its face – he’d have to be a complete nitwit.
See that? Get used to it. It’s going to be flying back at you a lot in the next 4 years when Greene under performs to his cap hit or becomes a drag on other potential signings in the years to come.
the devils have tons of cap room in the coming years, especially when parise walks because of lou’s incompetence and his evil bogeyman agents. this won’t be an issue.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Again. Were you not the same person who stated you’d rather have a root canal than Greene at 3 million? But now because it suits whatever your current argument is that it’s a fare deal because the cap is 2 million higher than you anticipated?
You made that comment when the cap was already set.
And I’m sorry Green was coming off a poor season, where most of his worth came from being able to log heavy minutes (when he shouldn’t have been) and play on the PK. So yes 3 million is an overpayment. And Lou’s the fool fool for waiting for the market to tell him what he’d have to pay to keep Greene.
Again. Were you not the same person who stated you’d rather have a root canal than Greene at 3 million? But now because it suits whatever your current argument is that it’s a fare deal because the cap is 2 million higher than you anticipated?
You made that comment when the cap was already set.
okay then find it. like i said, i went back and forth on greene. and the cap is EVERYTHING. it determines what is valuable and what is not. the FA world is totally different when the cap increases 50% more than anticipated.
and i think i need a root canal anyway.
And I’m sorry Green was coming off a poor season, where most of his worth came from being able to log heavy minutes (when he shouldn’t have been) and play on the PK. So yes 3 million is an overpayment. And Lou’s the fool fool for waiting for the market to tell him what he’d have to pay to keep Greene.
right. have we forgotten about the rumor that NJ tried to get brent burns at the draft? of course we have, even though that was reported by passionate tom gulitti. maybe lou didn’t want to lock up greene until he knew what the trade market at the draft would bear. and maybe letting greene test the market was a favor to greene. but nope, zelepukin knows all. he thinks greene would take $2 million/year after being paid well below his worth for the last 2 years, that greene just loves new jersey and loathes money.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
My dear all knowing Triumph.
Again my point seems to fly right over your head. Do I know for certain that Greene would have taken 2 million to stay in NJ? Of course not. My point is Lou shot himself in the foot BY WAITING as long as he did to simply even OPEN discussions with Greene, which in turn lead to the overpayment.
My dear all knowing and overly defensive Zelepukin, Greene was a UFA. An UNrestricted free agent. He’s got the power. Lou could have tried to open as many discussions with Greene as he wanted, Greene didn’t have to hear a word of it.
For all you know, and you don’t so don’t try to pretend otherwise, Greene and his people told Lou that they are interested in the FA market and would like to try it first. That is a key point that you’re not grasping. Lou could have been proactive as much as he wanted, it just didn’t matter. You can’t be shooting yourself in the foot if you have no bullets or a gun.
Moreover, there’s nothing written anywhere that suggests that were Greene was willing to talk about a new contract before July 1 that he would be looking for less money.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Says the pot calling the kettle black.
Go take a trip through Fire and Ice’s archive… one can easily infer Greene’s main goal was to stay a Devil stay. If you want to think I’m reading too much into that in suggesting that that would have meant he’d have taken less than $3mill? Knock yourself out. But I firmly believe that had Lou engaged him before the market began dictating his worth he’d have signed for less than he eventually did and you’re silly to think that talking to him sooner would have had no effect.
so let me get this straight – you think that lou sits on his hands until july 1, when at noon he eases slowly out of his rocking chair, and decides to start talking to free agents? does that make any sense to you? that lou would wait intentionally until july 1?
greene might want to stay a devil. that doesn’t mean he wants to stay a devil for a discount. that’s the problem with your line of logic. ‘i really want to stay here’ doesn’t mean ‘hey, i’ll give up a lot of salary’. and it especially doesn’t make sense for a guy who wasn’t making the kind of money a player could theoretically retire on to start giving up cash.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
I have no clue what Lou thinks or does. He and the NJ devils have the PR savvy of a cinder block.
Again. No Greene staying he wanted to stay doesn’t mean he would have taken less money. But talking to him about a deal before July 1st and i say his market value to stay would not have been a $3mill cap hit.
how do you know that lou didn’t talk to him about a deal? it’s like talking to a cinder block.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Oh you know just those multiple statements from Greene saying as much?
But then again Greene is a distrustful liar, so who knows right?
just about every player says they want to stay, and yet many of them leave. why is that, i wonder?
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Right. Like I said Greene is a treacherous type.
All of those comments about him wanting to stay that didn’t even remotely come off as your typical canned “I want to stay here” athlete comments were all part of his clever rouse!
Any athlete with a modicrum of intelligence (or an agent with the same) will say “I want to stay where I am”. After all, why give up any leverage by taking a team out of the mix and burning your bridges before it becomes necessary?
I agree here.
Maybe it would only have been $500K less per season, but LL mis-read the market on Greene. Once the other defensive dominos started to fall, conversations should have been started.
And I refuse to believe Greene/agent was lying when he said conversations had not started yet. He simply could not have returned calls instead of lying or giving a no comment answer.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
Perhaps
Greene’s thinking was “I want to stay in New Jersey (if they’ll give me a boat load of money more than I’m worth).” He just didn’t say the latter portion out loud.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
I’m pretty sure I was the one who preferred the root canal to Greene at $3M.
By the way Andy, my teeth thank you.
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
I still think Greene’s deal is vomit-inducing, but I got a great chuckle out of:
the devils have tons of cap room in the coming years, especially when parise walks because of lou’s incompetence and his evil bogeyman agents. this won’t be an issue.
I am picturing Arnott/Meehan with Scream masks on.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
Lou has already shot himself in the foot once this off season by playing this same game with Greene. I’m sure had he approached Greene as soon as the season ended, we’d probably be looking at a 2million dollar cap hit, and not the three once the frenzy of July 1st opened.
And you base this on what, exactly? Did Greene or his people talk to you about “what if” scenarios?
Moreover, Greene would have to have some stupid representation to not even consider the UFA market given how shallow it seemed on paper and deny himself potentially significant amounts of money to re-sign well before knowing what he could get at the prime of his professional hockey career. Either that, or Greene just hates making money that much.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
So you put absolutely ZERO weight to Greene’s numerous statements about how much he would prefer to avoid free agency.
Absolutely. If we’re to be distrustful of what the Devils say, then we should be definitely distrustful of what impending FAs say. They got their own image to uphold while looking out for their best interests.
So Greene may have wanted to avoid free agency. Well, to me, he didn’t say that he wanted to avoid getting a salary that is fair market value; or that he’s willing to give up money by signing before what other teams could offer him.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh come on man. One has a history of bad PR and putting the screws to players. The other is maybe a #4 D-man looking for some stability.
yeah john, think about what you’re saying, no players ever lie to the media. and the devils have a history of putting the screws to players except when it comes to unrestricted free agency when they just give them whatever they want, every time.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
This sounds like the pent up frustrations of having to deal with Lou on such a constant basis. Lou’s secretive nature, “status quo” responses and his need to control every aspect of the flow of information wears on us fans, so imagine how bad it must wear on TG. TG IS right that Lou should have gotten a deal done with Zach long ago, but that’s not how Lou works. We can only hope that TG is wrong about Zach feeling slighted for being put on the back burner for such a long time. Hopefully it won’t have any negative impact on Zach’s long term future in New Jersey.
Meh.
Sign the supporting cast for as little as possible so you can get Tom Hanks to play the lead rather than his brother Colin.
Zach wants to play for a long time in NJ. He will.
I’m still not worried.
The question is not how far. The question is, do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as is needed? - Il Duce
Colin is Tom Hank’s son, not his brother and that’s a sure for way to craft a crappy movie and team.
I was going to go with the Swayze brothers, but momentarily forgot that the better actor of the two was unavailable.
I wish things would have been more plesant in this particular re-signing, but I don’t really think there are any screws being turned. Just doesn’t seem as bad as TG is leading folks to believe, but I can understand the POV, and I can understand the road Lou is taking as well. I have to believe this would have been done months ago if the Cap was $70M.
The question is not how far. The question is, do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as is needed? - Il Duce
Sorry for the digression
But MAN, how bad of an actor do you have to be for Patrick Swayze to be a better actor than you?
Go Devils
Go Jets
Need to lose weight?
You have to be the second best actor ever to live…
Status quo.
by nyynygnjd on Jul 23, 2011 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who cares about Tom Hanks, just get indian actor Otm Shank
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 21, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
It's the Narrative.....
Never have I seen a NJ Devil beloved by the media as much as Parise. He’s a Gulitti favorite for sure, and probably rightfully so as he does give him a lot of access.
Zelepukin, while I agree with you that perhaps Zach should have been wrapped up sooner (but after the knee injury aren’t you glad he wasn’t) but you have to look at the messenger here.
I commented in the DeBoer post from yesterday but look at how the reporters had been characterizing the search for a new coach. Parise was looking for consistency while Kovalchuk needed to get along with the new coach. Similar ideas but presented in a negative fashion for Kovalchuk as if he is a problem child.
And then comes the question…..Does Parise deserve to be treated like Stevens/Brodeur? I am not sure he has earned that.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
Oh what an honor it is to have your GM discuss extending a contract with you mid season or before the term is up! Come on now, it’s a silly policy then as it is now.
In an NHL where the salary cap has risen as little as $100,000 and as much as $6.4 million, I feel that is rather prudent to see what you have to work with before trying to jam something through.
Imagine if Lou signed Parise to a $7 million AAV in December only to find that the cap was only increasing by $1.5 million instead of $4.9 million…our roster would be in a world of hurt…
So this is what it's like to be an Islanders fan...
by Marty 4 Prez on Jul 21, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Listen, I have been harsh on Lou for his policies (I think Greene should have been locked up mid-season if he was to have been re-signed) but to look at Gulitti’s rationale (which is essentially his thought that Kovy was a priority and Zach is left twisting away) is way overstating the case.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Let's try and put things this way...
Say “nay” if you disagree with this statement.
The Devils have done everything within their rights, but are picking the wrong player to play hardball with. Parise is just as important and deserves the kind of treatment Brodeur and Stevens have received
Nay
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
So then you both are essence saying if Zach leaves in a year, because Lou decided to stick his “guns” in coming to term on a new contract you’re cool with it. Lou did the right thing.
If they can’t sign a long term contract this summer, hell try to do it during the season this time I’m sure. Trade deadline deal done or Parise is gone.
I just don’t know that ‘hardball’ has been played yet. Since we are not privy to the terms of the negotiations what if Parise wanted $8MM a year and would not budge?
I think Gulitti is making numerous assumptions here which paints the picture that the Devils are screwing Parise.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
my favorite gulitti assumption is that parise had to hire agents because of the kovalchuk thing. brodeur always retained a lawyer for these things – how hard would it be to do that? (i know the NHLPA didn’t exactly like it). and now his big bad agents are going to press him towards free agency.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
and now his big bad agents are going to press him towards free agency.
Lots of agents steer their clients towards free agency. I don’t necessarily know Zach’s agents’ track record on these things, but it’s a popular stance for an agent to take because they know someone is much more likely to overpay in that scenario.
Status quo.
You understand how agents make their money yes? Or are you just in your usual cycle of “triumph44 is never wrong!”
by Zelepukin on Jul 21, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i understand that zach parise has free will and is capable of making his own decisions. plus zach is the one hiring them in the first place. for gulitti to write, “Then, Parise hired these current agents, who probably would prefer he sign a one year deal right now and go for the jackpot next summer as a UFA.” – yeah, they would probably prefer that. but they’re being hired to help make zach make the best decision for zach.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Nay, I love Zach, I’d like to see him re-signed long term, & he’s got a pretty damn good potential.
but he’s not as special as Marty or Scott, they were re-signed as cup winners. Parise hasn’t won a conference semi-finals series yet.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Nay
Parise is a superstar, but Stevens and Marty are close to or the best in their position in NHL history. It isn’t even close.
You all realize this “Special treatment” that is held in such high esteem around here is simply talking to a player about extending his contract before his term is up. Is that really such a special thing?
This is how Lou’s always worked. Look Adam Larsson’s contract as… Less than $1 Million when 3 years ago with a lower cap-hit, Pietrangelo earned around $3.2 Millions as a 4th overall Defenseman.
Besides Stevens & Marty, Players personal interest are not coming 1st. but team’s. Kovy’s borderline but he was the biggest UFA since post lock-out, his cap-hit not that bad., Kovy & Parise situations shouldn’t be compared.
Overall, I think the Devils are a bit different from other teams there & I’m pretty sure Zach’s able to understand that.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
See that way of thinking already backfired in some ways with Niedermayer.
Maybe he left anyway to play with his Bro had Lou not hard-balled him as a RFA. But maybe just maybe that wouldn’t have been as big of an issue had Lou not treated him as such way back when.
I totally agree, it’s a dangerous business Lou’s always played. But “team comes 1st” I sincerely like this philosophy.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Adam Larsson’s contract is a different example from Parise, I just meant Lou asks his players to make some sacrifices for the team’s sake
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually did not like the ‘no performance bonus’ stance. Those bonuses are shadow money for the most part anyway. What if Larsson wouldn’t accept a deal without performance bonuses? Would he just not be signed? I found that to be a silly stance for a part of the CBA every other team utilizes.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The quote from Larsson’s agent after the deal was that they overcame a “stumbling block” to sign this deal. I interpreted the stumbling block to be that Larsson wanted to play in the NHL this year and was told that the likelihood of that happening were severely reduced if he had performance bonuses.
Whether or not they were ever an option, or whether or not Lou essentially made him choose between his desire to play or his desire to make bank, or whether he genuinely didn’t care like he says and just wanted to do what was best for everyone remains to be seen and any side can probably be argued pretty effectively.
They could have given him some general performance bonuses and kept his cap number attractive.
If the conversation was ‘you want a shot at the NHL you can’t have any performance bonuses’ than that is fine.
I don’t like the blanket no performance bonus stance. It’s entirely too rigid considering the dynamics of the ELC contracts.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually don’t understand the whole no performance stance, when Hedberg had them on his contract last season. Is the stance strictly to ELCs?
Supposedly. But Henrique and others have or had bonuses included in their salary. Since we don’t know who gets what bonus, it’s hard to say which ones agree with his philiosophy.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
by Tom Stivali on Jul 21, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Nay
Devils play hard ball with everyone. They don’t pick and choose with whom to play hard ball.
I think playing hardball with everyone is cutting off their nose to spite their face. By having a totally rigid “business first” policy, I think they often do damage to themselves from a business standpoint.
Status quo.
I tend to agree with this. I’m not really sure what Lou is gaining by doing things the way he does things.
Although, it’s difficult to say whether or not they would be in the same situation even if they did speak to Parise earlier than they did, or made it “seem” like he was a very high priority.
Also, For Gulliti to say that Niedermayer’s departure was even slightly influenced by the negotiations earlier in his career is absolute conjecture. Seems like he is just trying to stir the pot.
What Lou gains is he gets good players to sign on the cheap.
Am I the only one that remembers that we used to have an elite hockey team playing in front of 8,000 fans? Does this happen if the GM is willing to cave in to player’s demands?
What is he ‘caving’ to? Clearly Lou would have a number in mind and if they are far apart, then he could say “okay, we’ll deal with this after the season because it’s going to take some work to reach an agreement.” I think he could often secure much more Devils-friendly deals if he were willing to look into things earlier with the players interested in extending their deals before free agency.
Status quo.
Of course it’s conjecture. But how do you not entertain that something that clearly was a (needlessly) bitter period between the player and organization may have have lead partially to his decision to leave?
Honestly, because you can’t say for sure.
Give me an honest opinion. In Neidermayer’s case, do you think if that situation did not occur, do you think he would have stayed in New Jersey? I honestly think he would still choose to play with his brother.
I don’t know, but maybe not being able to play with his brother right then and there wouldn’t have been as big of an issue. Maybe Neid’s would have said, “you know what, I’ll stay, but you bring Rob in when he’s a FA.”
We’ll never know, but it also is the sort of situation given the facts we do know that makes you wonder if it could have all gone down differently.
how was it ‘needlessly bitter’? were the devils rolling in dough at the time? no, they weren’t, not at all.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Having Neidermayer sit out for 3 weeks of the season over what was 250k gap between the sides seems ridiculous for a player of his caliber. he was worth what he was asking for and then some.
i never remember hearing terms for any contract negotiations, so you’re going to have to find a source on that.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
it doesn’t say whether it’s over $250,000 per season or $250,000. would i say, yeah, they probably should’ve given him that money? sure, without any knowledge of the situation, or what the devils budget is like.
but what about elias holding out into the 1999 season when lou forced him to sign a terrible contract? i was heartbroken when elias went to montreal in 2006. he’s got to do a better job holding on to his players.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
the team had just won the cup. Is that really how you should have treated one of the best defenseman in the league?
the team won the cup in 1998? finally, the long-awaited 4th stanley cup to new jersey.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
No I’m confusing both times that Neidermayer held out because of a contract dispute.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/16/sports/sports-of-the-times-will-devils-trade-their-2-holdouts.html
right and according to the numbers there, the differences were pretty substantial.
i remember arnott being elated when he got traded to dallas and hated coming back here, because of this contract dispute.
it’s a business. if a player wants to have his ass kissed 24/7, he can do it somewhere else. niedermayer got a big offer from new jersey and turned it down. the devils tried to trade for rob niedermayer and were rebuffed. it was clear there was one demand they couldn’t fulfill.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
No, man, that was 2005. Remember your history.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s the same article elsewhere credited to the Associated Press.
Brought up briefly in this NYT article as well.
I would be more concerned if Parise was the only big name RFA that wasn’t signed but he isn’t. Stamkos just signed and Weber/Doughty still haven’t. So I don’t understand why TG is making a fuss. Negotiating with RFA’s is the only time GM’s have any leverage so who cares if they use it.
maybe im missing something
But TG suggests at one point Lou should have locked up Parise last season when Kovy decided to test the market. I mean there was no way to sign both Zach and Kovy to long term deals last year, right? So implied in that comment is that Lou should have let Kovy walk ? I don’t see how that is a more productive solution in any way. The fact that he suggests an option in signing Parise that would have left the Devils without arguably their best player demonstartes TG’s bias towards Zach. Don’t get me wrong I love Zach, I think we all do, the goal here is to get the best team possible on the ice, not to make Zach Parise’s every wish come true.
Maybe someone can correct me, but Parise would have been extended. Does an extension then effect the cap hit of a deal that still has a year on it, or does it become a new cap hit once that extension begins. If it didn’t then that new cap hit would have come to play this season regardles of if a new deal was struck last year or this year.
But again correct me if I’m wrong.
No it doesn’t . An extension kicks in when the years actually begin. Kovalchuk could have been resigned with Zach but the point is with Kovy we only had a window to sign him with Parise we had a year + so why would we cram it all together at once. TG is definitely wrong on this part.
No he’s stating at that point a contract negotiation with Parise would have been pretty quick and easy while they waited on Kovalchuk. And that still in now ay excuses that it wasn’t until the week before the arbitration deadline did Lou only first open some sort of dialogue with one of his star players.
Perhaps we should change this site to “In Lou Some Trust,” or so it seems at least.
I believe that Lou knows what he’s doing, and hopefully TG doesn’t Hearst this story into something bigger than it needs to be. Nothing like good, old fashioned yellow journalism to spice up the summer hockey doldrums!
So this is what it's like to be an Islanders fan...
Well given that he chose to not say any of this in any article and only went candid when replying to comments, i think it’s a little unfair to try and paint that Gulitti is trying to turn this into a huge story and sway things.
had he actually published an article saying as such, sure. But All of this was him merely responding to his readers, albeit in public.
Yes Gulitti clearly is a fan of Parise, but that doesn’t somehow mean that him saying he doesn’t think Zach is being treated with the sort of respect he should be by the organization is off base.
If anything i’m the one trying to turn it into a huger story and sway things, by digging through his comments, isolating them and painting this picture.
Yes, you are
and I think many of us are trying to dissuade you from that point of view. This slant coming from you does not effect the Devils organization, but coming from Tom Gulitti, it may. So my problem is Gulitti potentially igniting something that does not need to be ignited or has little basis to be. Because of his blog, he has the ability to do that, and knowing that Gulitti is a big fan of Zach, it’s tougher to read his comments as ‘fact’ versus what they most likely are; an editorial.
There’s nothing to dissuade. I’m merely playing Devil’s advocate (no pun intended) here because most of the site seems to just take the organizations side over players regarding most matters.
It’s pretty clear that Parise isn’t a fan and confused by how he’s been treated in regards to a new contract. All this (this post, Gulitti’s comments) is doing is shining asome light over it in the hopes Lou gets a clue that he does not operate within a bubble and these things have effects.
You’re worried that talking like this is somehow going to effect Parise’s future with the team, when Gulitti stating it probably already has.
I worry that rhetoric influences people, of course. And while it should, I do not think your stance here is the one to take. I disagree that this is as large an issue as your comments on this page or the story itself try to make it.
You state that you are the
one trying to turn it into a huger story and sway things, thereby implying that the issue isnt that big.
No i was merely pointing that Gulitti Isn’t the one making into a bigger issue. He wrote no article, these are merely off the cuff comments he posted in response to his article buried pages deep. That if you wanted to point the finger at anyone making it into a bigger deal than it already it is, it should be pointed at myself rather than Gulitti since I’m the one drawing attention to it.
That said, I’m not trying to make this into a huge issue. Merely bringing it to light as it is relevant bit of news and engage in a discussion. But I also happen to agree with most of what Gulitti is saying.
I agree with your qualification of Gulitti’s comments… I actually read most of them last night on his blog, and taken in and of themselves , none of them seemed like a whole lot, until the last one where he got into a little of a ran about Nieder, that one I remember thinking oh well looks like TG brought his edge tonight, which he sometimes does. Really not a big deal
I'm calling BS right now
Where is this special treatment Broduer and Stevens got? (I’m talking in terms of contracts negotiations).
The idea that Marty got special treatment in contract negotiations is laughable. Broduer was treated the same as anyone else early in his career. Same as Larsson this year. OK, Lou signed the current deal mid-season for Marty. Big whoop. That contract was so far below what Broduer was worth it’s ridicules. If Zach wants that kind of treatment he can sign for about a $3M cap hit.
Scott Stevens? First Lou wins arbitration case (yes, Lou won an arbitration case) and is awarded Stevens. Later, Stevens signs offer sheet with Blues that Lou matches and eventually wins tampering case. So basically, Steven was here because Lou leveraged his right under applicable CBA. Not because of special treatment.
BTW
The part of the tampering case where the Devils got to swap first round picks with St. Louis? Lou made that swap in 2003 after cup win to move from 30th to 22nd. He then traded up from 22nd to 17th.
With the 17th pick in the 2003 draft Lou selected Zach Parise.
stevens did sign a contract mid-year in 2000-2001 or 2001-2002, i’m forgetting which. that was when he was in his mid 30s and had already won 2 stanley cups. i want to say it was 2001-2002, a 3 year extension.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
See the details here.
Actually, it’s pretty interesting to see what was said at the time.
no, this article is for his contract which went through 99, 00, 01, 02. so he signed another deal in the middle of 2001-02.
this quote i found interesting: Today, Stevens addressed Messier’s decision to leave the Rangers. Standing in the middle of the dressing room at the Devils’ training facility here, Stevens said, ‘’Messier is not married and has no kids.’
first of all, it’s amusing because messier did have a son, just that he didn’t raise him. second, it’s interesting how that might be a factor, especially when one thinks about recent moves around the nhl.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
The article is about the first contract Stevens signs with Devils (not counting the arbitration and offer sheet) and was in fact signed in season.
What I found interesting was that franchise scoring leader Maclean was gone, Daneyko was in treatment, Stevens, Broduer, Neidermayer and Gilmore were on the last year of their contracts.
What would ILWT Fan Posts be like if it existed back then?
OK, Lou signed the current deal mid-season for Marty.
I think it’s just about that people are calling it a special treatment, not the salary.
"It's magic, it's tragic, it's a loss, it's a win"
by Elektrostal_Kid on Jul 21, 2011 1:20 PM EDT reply actions
Fair enough. But I still have to wonder what is so special about ripping off a player in mid-season as comparedd to ripping him off during the off-season.
Showing him that he’s wanted and needed. And Brodeur didn’t get ripped off, he took a hometown discount to get a longer term.
OK, the term ‘ripping off’ was to harsh. But the difference between ‘ripping off’ and ‘hometown discount’ is semantics. Or spin.
Whatever. Lets be plain about it. Broduer was poised to break multiple major NHL records, playing his whole career in a Devils uniform, was the best goalie in the league at the time, was months from UFA and was willing to sign a discounted contract so he could finish his career with the team. All this while the league was coming off a locked out season and the team was building an arena.
Can we even calculate what Broduer has meant to the Devils ‘brand’?
So Lou made an exception and signed that contract mid-season. That isn’t ‘special treatment’.
Making an exception is pretty much the definition of special treatment.
I think part of the point that TG was trying to make is that had the Devils engaged Zach early on, they may have ended up with a much more cap friendly contract than they will now. Personally, I am inclined to agree with him here. I think had the Devils engaged during the season or even early in the off-season, they could have nailed him down for significantly cheaper than they will now that they took a very “this is a business” approach.
Status quo.
Well, Mr Zelepukin, I’ll give you credit for starting pasionate conversation. When I posted a about Parise I got 3 lousy comments!!!
Zelepukin knows how to stir up the masses. Lifetime supply of snark floatin’ around on this page right now.
Status quo.
I believe it was that treacherous rapscallion, acasser. May he be put in a pillory outside the Rock for such blasphemy.
Status quo.
Wow...
If we learn anything from this, or rather if anything is definitely re-assured, it is that Gulitti really is opinionated and well, doesn’t exactly know the way Lou functions in preparing the team.
If he really understood, he wouldn’t be posting things like this.
True, he may have some points, but he doesn’t state the different situations both players were in. UFAs and RFAs. Plus we know that we have something that Parise wants (and deserves) along with a new contract. The captaincy. Which he rightly will be given.
In Lou We Trust.
If it wasn’t for John’s pesky 2009 NHL Free Agency: Open Thread for Devils & NHL, this’ would be the most commented Fan Post EVR!!!!!!!!!
That’s only because Quisp’s “Neener neener, U Guys R Dumz!” post from last summer got deleted before all the troll hunters could get to it.
It’s funny. I still hate him and the 5 people who post at JFTC.
I also now root against the Kings. Gotta love the internets.
In Lou We Trust: SBN Blog of the New Jersey Devils
quisp is probably still posting about kovalchuk over there, so you can get a taste by clicking on over.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - the blog with three first lines
Summary: Quisp made a bunch of posts pointing out that Kovalchuk wasn’t all that and a bag of chips. Fair enough, that’s his opinion and he defended it well enough. The Devils sign Kovalchuk to a big deal. Quisp rails at how illegal it is despite the lack of anything actually written down in the CBA and calls for everyone associated with it to be punished. He comes here to make that point, argues/whines with some people here and broke the site rules once, I warned him about it and then proceeded to break them again, and so I banned him for not respecting my rules. He then wrote an apparently whiny post about it – which I only know because my brother told me about how whiny he was being.
In short: Blogdrama and you’re better off knowing something more constructive like the capital of South Dakota.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Jul 21, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Going upstairs
I’m checking the replay for a distinct googleing motion.
In Lou We Trust!! (but that doesn't mean we don't wonder sometimes...)
by statusquo on Jul 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
assuming too much ...?
First of all, stop comparing anyone contract talks with Marty – what sets him appart (beside him being the best ever :-)) is that he was aiming for the carier and all the records with one team.
Next, I love Zach, but he is not Kovy, i.e. comming after how many seasons with 40+ goals. Plus – Kovy is a bigger fan-magnet, which was seen last year, and will be more visible in future.
And finally – TG and many others assume that deal could have been done easily last year. Why would you think Zach was gonna leave money on the table then. He is not doing it now … If he is or if Lou is paying good+ money, then we see easy and fast dealing. It is taking time now, it would have been the same any time.
While I’d tend to agree about comparing contracts, the subject of Parise vs. Kovalchuk as a player and as a ticket draw has been covered before.
They’re different kinds of players and each brings different skill sets to the team. Depending on what you value more, pure scoring ability or strong two-way play even against top opposition, you can probably make a strong case either way.
As to ticket draw, that remains to be seen. Last year the team only had an 83.8% home capacity rate. It’s hard to separate how much of that was affected by disinterest during the miserable first half of the year and other factors like the harsh winter, but it was still a 4.3% drop from the previous year’s attendance, which was itself 1.5% lower than the year before.
In the last 5 years the annual attendance percentage has increased twice, from 74.5% in 06-07 to 88.3% in 07-08, and to 89.6% the following year, but has declined both seasons since to its lowest level in 4 years despite bringing Kovy in and signing him to a lifetime contract.
Road attendance has remained about the same, going 94.4%, 95.5%, 95.5%, 94.9% and 95.7% from 06-07 through last season.
Regardless, I dare say there are just as many fans excited about Parise and seeing him play as there are Kovalchuk.
Regardless, I dare say there are just as many fans excited about Parise and seeing him play as there are Kovalchuk.
No doubt. And in my personal opinion there will always be something more special with Parise if he does sign an extended contract with this team because he’s homegrown talent.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle
Regardless, I dare say there are just as many fans excited about Parise and seeing him play as there are Kovalchuk.
You are right. I’m not trying to put Zach down in any way. It’s just that I find Kovy more electrifying player. When Zach scores, I love it cause its Devils goal. Same goes for any other player. Except Kovy. He gets me up one extra noch, even when I want to boo him from the ice ;-)
Don’t get me wrong – I do love Devils hockey. Just never had a feeling of loving to see someone taking the ice, unless that was Marty. Some other teams, I watch their highlights to see several players do their magic. And for last year+ one of them is a Devil.
But that doesn’t mean I won’t be heartbroken if Zach leaves … I just realised I was more reacting to someone else noticing that while TG is generally not bias, nor pulling in any direction, he did seem to me too as kind of pulling a PR stunt for Zach, and allways did have a kind of different aproach tovards Kovy.
On the other hand, this could simply come from the fact that Zach is warm and kind person to TG, and Kovy perhaps is not.
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