The Trouble with Great Players
The New Jersey Devils organization has had some great players represent the team in their history. The players are easy to identify: Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, and Ken Daneyko still stand out in fans' minds for their work in helping the team achieve three Stanley Cups. Some are still on the Devils; namely, Martin Brodeur and Patrik Elias. Others are legends to some degree either for serving in a utility role or only spent some time of their career in New Jersey. For lack of a better term, they're like cult heroes. Examples that come to my mind are Sergei Brylin, John Madden, Claude Lemeiux, Jay Pandolfo, John MacLean, Bobby Holik, Valeri Zelepukin, and Slava Fetisov. We could go on and on about important players for the Devils. (Or even non-players who are also legends in their own right, like play-by-play announcer Doc Emrick, former coaches like Jacques Lemaire and Pat Burns, director of scouting David Conte, and - of course - Lou.)
Let's focus on the players, though. Achieving any kind of success in sport is seemingly easier with someone with substantial talent, be it work ethic, awareness, general skill, etc. They are players who you can rely on. They excel at what they do on a regular basis. They do memorable things in the run of play that adds to their legend-like status among the fans. I'd almost say that successful teams need great players. And if they don't have any to start the season, some will prove themselves to be great players should there be significant success during the season.
Should a player excel at such a level that they are among the best in the entire league for a considerable amount of time, they got a chance to be in the Hall of Fame as they would be among the best players in history. Even if they're not Hall-worthy, those great players still become legends for the team. The very best can and do get their numbers retired or honored in some other fashion. More importantly, fans hold on to memories of their play for generations, people will still represent their number and nameplate on a jersey, and through that they become a part of the franchise's lore. The Devils have two players who have been honored in such a way (Stevens, Daneyko), and several more who could obtain similar honors (Brodeur, Niedermayer, Elias - in my opinion).
However, there's a downside to having great players. Devils fans have experienced this before, they will experience it soon and in the future; so I feel it's important to bring it up.
Ultimately, what we want is a successful hockey team and so we want the great players who made the team successful in the past. I can understand, accept, and agree with that feeling. The problem is that great players eventually stop playing. They get hurt, they get old, or they stop after achieving some kind of goal. Whatever the reason, they cannot play forever - much less at the level fans want them to perform. They must be replaced and this creates the player. We regard great players highly for what they do. We recognize their talent, their skill, and what makes them special in our eyes. Yet, they eventually have to be replaced and that's not fair for the player who has to do that. Even we recognize and accept that - and I believe we do - it's incredibly difficult to avoid making a comparison to whoever it is they are replacing. And usually that comparison rarely is fair.
Think of Colin White. Did he have flaws? Certainly. But he had his strengths and was ultimately a solid defensive defenseman. However, I believe some Devils fans wouldn't have loathed him if he wasn't following Scott Stevens or Ken Daneyko. Brian Rafalski was quite productive as the offensive defenseman following Scott Niedermayer's departure, so he got a pass. Yet, Paul Martin and Andy Greene didn't get a fair shake in some fans eyes - even though it is obvious that those two aren't that kind of defenseman. I wouldn't be surprised if Adam Larsson gets this comparison heaved upon him given his potential. Another area where this thought came to mind has to do with the captaincy of the team. Some fans earnestly believe the team hasn't had a proper leader since Stevens, who retired in 2004 and despite the team naming a few captains since then. Even if we publicly say, "I know X can't fill this great player Y's skates, but I'll judge him on his own merit," I feel it's nigh-impossible to erase any comparison in our minds.
Sure, it's easy if that replacement player is great himself or performs exceptionally well. Knowing that the Devils have Ilya Kovalchuk and (hopefully) Zach Parise for several years after Elias calls it a career helps. They're already great players. But those kind of players are not so common. And even the great ones may not live up to the legends before them. After all, Elias has the rings Kovalchuk and Parise doesn't have (yet).
As an aside, I think this is a common occurrence beyond sports. Think of the salesman who has to replace a salesman who helped make a company what it was. Think of a vocalist who has to fill in a vacancy for a band, whose success was a largely in part of their prior vocalist. Think of a new actor playing a popular movie character that a famous actor has done for years in a new movie. No matter how well they all do on their own terms, they'll be unfairly compared to those before them - and often come out on the wrong end.
Sport is a bit different in that there always has to be a replacement. Sport demands that players be interchangeable parts in some way. Great players will be missed, but the game doesn't stop when they depart. Someone has to take the minutes the great player had. Someone has to do what they did on the ice. Someone has to play goaltender, wear the "C," center the first line, or run the point on a power play.
Yet, the funny thing is that great players aren't interchangeable parts. They are special in their own ways and fans like us see them as special in our eyes, hearts, and minds. Therefore, we cannot help but try and compare replacements to those players; unfair as they may be and even in spite of accepting the cold reality that someone has to play in their role. We can hope that great players replace them, but in our hearts, we really want a great player like them.
We want another Scott Stevens-like player on defense and to lead the team. We want a heart-and-soul physical defenseman like Daneyko. We want a smooth-skating, breakout-leading, three-zone-dominating defender like Scott Niedermayer (who doesn't have a brother). We will want a Martin Brodeur-like goaltender to backstop the team for over 15 years with excellence. We will want an offensive wizard like Patrik Elias to be part of the attack. I can go on. However, the problem is that if such players existed, those Devils legends wouldn't be so great - they wouldn't be special. Yet, that's what we want; especially when the team isn't succeeding like we want them to. Even if management finds someone who can adequately do their job or better, they're stuck in the shadow of success or something else from the great player before them.
That's the trouble with great players.
What can we, as fans, do about this? I don't think there's too much that can be done. This could be human nature running into how we view, judge, observe, analyze, and think about our favorite team. It may be reduced, but not eliminated. Still, I want to hear your thoughts. I've had this thought in my head for quite some time, so I could be off-base. Do you agree with what I feel the trouble of great players are; or do you disagree? Do you think it's another issue that I'm conflating just with great players? Is there a term for what I'm trying to describe? Please leave your answers and other thoughts on this general topic in the comments. Thanks for reading.
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Its a big thing that comes up throughout everything in life.
Sports is the biggest showing of it though. I am a Green Bay Packers fan and everything went crazy when Aaron Rodgers stepped in for Favre after his first fake retirement. I saw it with Martin and Greene when they tried to step up to be top defensemen on this team. Im sure we will see it with whoever replaces Marty. In fact Im positive we will see it when someone has to replace Marty. That player will almost never be given the credit they deserve unless they can do spectacular things. The player that replaces Marty will have to win some Cups before anyone will give him the respect he deserves most likely. Aaron Rodgers proved he was a great QB and the comparisons stopped. It takes an amazing player to be able to escape the comparisons to the old guy. Its a bad habit that people have towards sports and life in general, but I dont think there is anything that can be done about it.
by Jacob Shepherd on Aug 28, 2011 10:52 AM EDT reply actions
Jason Arnott didn't get mentioned? - Fail!
As a fan I am and have been ready to move beyond this era of success. I also think it is kinda neat that we have these great players to look back upon. I think Brodeur and Stevens are the two that will never be replaceable. So any comparisons would be silly.
One of my favorite posts in a while
I’m slightly nervous of a post- Hextall situation. Can we just clone Marty? I’m looking at you scientists.
Ilya Kovalchuk is good at hockey
by 3 already on Aug 28, 2011 11:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
sigh…..Fine, I will start working on it….
by Jacob Shepherd on Aug 28, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
This post brings back a lot of Nostalgia. Yes, Nostalgia, that is what this is called. Longing for something in the past. I agree it is unfair to judge a player based on other players, but that is something that people tend to do, due to Nostalgia. Now that is something that I believe that Adam Larsson will also face now, along with Merril and the rest of the young defensemen that we regard so highly.
Wow
This was just one of those posts that open up your eyes. Sadly, however, I don’t think it is possible for us to lose this frame of mind. The Devils, in the last 17 or so years, have been a dynasty and anyone who steps on the ice is judged on a basis of who preceded them. I agree, they should be judged on their own merit, but I don’t think it is as easy as saying they should. It will take a full generation of failure essentially for someone to step onto the ice, not be as good as a Stevens, an Elias or a Marty and get a good, fair reception. I say this because we, as fans, are used to the success and the “special” things these players have/had to offer. The power we have is to be there in The Rock or on the road to scream and cheer for the boys we love so much, no matter what name they have on the back of their jerseys.
Gonna Be Impossible For Marty's Heir
How do you replace arguably the greatest goaltender ever? You don’t. You can’t. It’s impossible. That’s why I think the Devils best bet is to get Pekka Rinne or some UFA goalie to make an easier transition from Marty. Going homegrown is not a good option at this point in time. You need somebody who’s proven, so fans don’t freak out when they don’t see Marty in the crease.
Look at when Wayne Gretzky was traded to the Kings in 88’. The Oilers got Jimmy Carson who was heralded to be hockey’s next best superstar at the the time. He had two solid seasons for the Kings getting 79 and 107 points in his first two years in the league. When he got two Edmonton he also had a really good year getting 100 points but the fans didn’t care because he wasn’t Wayne Gretzky. Completely ruined his career.
When Patrick Roy left the Canadiens he left open a revolving door of goalies that kept passing by because none of them were as good as Roy was. It took years for them to get a solid goalie in Jose Theodore.
I’m really afraid that if we don’t get a proven goalie the Devils could be plagued like the Canadiens were. Plus, replacing any goalie is hard enough as there are so many goalies but only two spots on the roster for them. Easy to find a goalie, hard to get a good one.
I have a feeling Marty’s gonna play past his contract which will make it easier for the prospects to develop. However if he doesn’t then they should do what Washington did when Kolzig left. They should bring in a cheap proven goalie as a short term solution, and then wait it out until one of Wedgewood, Clermont or Kinkaid are ready to take the reigns.
This is exactly why I wrote this post.
Getting a proven goaltender is one thing; but what does that even mean? If there is always going to be a comparison to Martin Brodeur for any goalie the Devils get, be it Rinne or someone else, then they’ll never stack up regardless of reality.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 28, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
True but again in D.C. nobody tried comparing Theodore (or Huet) and Kolzig because they knew the goalie situation was only a temporary one.
That and Kolzig wasn’t all that great either. But that’s a different team and a different situation.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 28, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
there’s also the situation where people try to compare every devils goaltending prospect to marty, or IMMEDIATELY after they make a goaltending draft pick they ask how the next guy will stack up to marty, even with a late-round pick with absolutely no development.
so everyone tries to predict a huge drop already in how the devils will be able to compete when he retires. like how he was never good enough to warrant hart consideration for gluing the team together, and now all of sudden the team will be completely lost when he’s gone and oh the devils only have unknown prospects to replace him it’s going to be a terrible situation for them when it happens and it will be judgment day hurricane irene-style.
and the truth is, every single one guy that fills the net for the next like 10 years will be compared, and that’s not right.
the guy only needs to be as good as the team is, or one of the best compared to the rest of the league for the coming years, NOT compared to marty’s best years. he only has to be better than the guys he plays against, and really does not have to be in hall-of-fame contention from the start of his career to still be successful. we know we’re a little spoiled, but the media is absolutely pounding the fact that like wedgewood might not put up 400 wins, 100 shutouts, when NO OTHER GOALIE on any other team will have to be put in that context and be expected to compare to those numbers.
that’s why it’s funny when other fans ask, “how are the devils possibly going to compete without him especially when you don’t have anyone as good to replace him?”
well, the next guy only needs to be one of the best in the league to win a cup, and not one of the best compared to all-time right away just for the devs to win again. plenty of teams happen to win cups without players considered the best of all-time at their position.
so we don’t need a guy to compare to marty to be able to win, we just need him to compare to the rest of the league at that time for the devs to go back to winning without him.
That’s exactly correct.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 29, 2011 8:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The truth is this happens with nearly every other team. For example Anaheim fans are trying to compare one of their prospects Jake Gardiner to their all time greatest defenseman (Niedermayer), saying he can skate like Niedermayer. Setting up this new player to failure before he even steps on the ice. Detroit is a model that the Devils should do their best to replicate in this regard. Nobody ever compares Datsyuk and Yzerman, because Detroit fans know they’re two completely different players. Yet they still expect Datsyuk to be as elite as Stevie Y. It comes down to hoping that Larsson can be the next Niedermayer, in terms of the level he plays, but not expecting him to be the next Niedermayer, in terms of what he brings to the table.
It comes down to hoping that Larsson can be the next Niedermayer, in terms of the level he plays, but not expecting him to be the next Niedermayer, in terms of what he brings to the table.
That’s sort of correct; but I’d take it further. I believe it really comes down to hoping Larsson can develop into a NHL player on his own and the Devils utilizing him accordingly as opposed to hoping he becomes The Next Great Defenseman just because he had a lot of potential, or he was drafted 4th overall, or whatever. Throwing big expectations at a 18-year old defenseman doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Devils in my heart! Devils in my mind! Devils in my eyes! Devils until I die!
In Lou We Trust - The New Jersey Devils SBN Blog
by John Fischer on Aug 28, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
nice article, john. i’m excited for the devils’ future because the players they have aren’t like players from the past. the team has a much different identity now. that’s not to say i don’t love the old teams, because i do. but i’m excited that the devils are going in a different direction.
http://drivingplay.blogspot.com - The blog with three first lines
For example Anaheim fans are trying to compare one of their prospects Jake Gardiner to their all time greatest defenseman (Niedermayer), saying he can skate like Niedermayer.
They’ve probably changed their attitude now that he’s a Toronto Maple Leaf
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
That's it. I'm sending you to El Paso to live with your real parents.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 28, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You never know. They are Anaheim fans, after all…
"On a scale of 1-10, I'd have to say 60 to 65 percent"
-NBA Union rep Billy Hunter
by Jersey_Puck on Aug 28, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Thinking of wanting to see the older players play again makes me think of the movie Filed of Dreams… maybe they should make a “Rink of Dreams”? See all the players from your childhood come out and play again on the ice, watching them skate with finesse, make cross ice passes and glorious looking hits. Watching those with their shots score out from the point, down low by the net, and watching the goaltender making sprawling moves and the later popularized butterfly move. But what we all love for sure if Marty’s hybrid style. Now that, would be an interesting movie. In the creation of such one, and how it would be… ah, Nostalgia.
I’d have to agree John, but at the same time, to take a step back and gain perspective, I’m glad that we even have this problem. Better to sometimes wrongfully liken promising prospects to team legends, than have no legends to compare them to at all. Have to appreciate the amazing history the Devils have built in such a comparatively short period of time.
"On a scale of 1-10, I'd have to say 60 to 65 percent"
-NBA Union rep Billy Hunter
This sounds like any good player in the past will get comparisons. Everytime a prospect is picked they choose someone in the NHL, I mean when Josefson was picked they said he was like Henrik Zetterberg, really? Same with Zharkov, instantly bringing up comparisons with all time devil great Sergei Brylin. Why is this comparison made? Both Russian and wear the number 18 while being solid defensively. Truth is it will be a miracle if Zharkov becomes the player that Brylin was, and to expect that of him is a little out there.
Still while some comparisons are ridiculous because they don’t fit, some make sense if that is what you get them for. Maybe not for a great player, but if you lose Scott Gomez who was your great center for seven years, and then replace him with a big contract to Dainus Zubrus, those comparisons will be made every day of Zubrus’s contract.
Really John, no mention of Troy Crowder, the best enforcer the Devils ever had?
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I’m just kidding with you, great article as always.
There is nothing quite as satisfying as out running security after you've punched out a Flyers fan!
"I was in the moment, and the moment said smack you." - Bruce Willis
On Adam Larsson...
Let me start off by saying Adam Larsson is not and will not be as good as Stevens. Good. Great. Now that thats out of the way… I don’t know if Larsson is going to take the same heat from the fans that White did. White, came in while Stevens was still playing. He took the immediate finger wagging from the fans when he didn’t do exactly what Stevens had done for years.
Larsson isn’t replacing Stevens. Larsson is “replacing” (not really but you get it) White. I predict that Devils fans take a fancy towards Adam pretty quickly (given he shows some relative success)… but what do I know.
"You're next." -Scott Stevens
by MikePelusoTears on Aug 29, 2011 9:06 PM EDT reply actions
I'd be happier
If Larsson is a delayed replacement for Paul Martin.
Go Devils
Go Jets
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